Flag in or out?

[MUNIGRIT]

I used to post briefly at another forum where the consensus was you should always leave the flag in when putting because the math says so. I notice very few pros do it now. Now that we have had some time with flag allowed in on the green and with CV19, are we still claiming science says leave it in? Even Bryson doesn't do it except on certain situations. Granted the moderator in the other forum ran it like Hilter would run the media and was a mouth breather about strokes gained and always keep it in.

[sui generis]

1) The cooties will be with us for a long time, so for the hoi polloi, flagsticks are likely to be in and we'll all get used to it.

2) Lotsa people venture onto that forum you're speaking of. Most don't last . . . I stuck it out for far longer than I should have. ?

[ThinkingPlus]

No. The science supports leaving it out. Some of the studies weren't performed with the best rigor in the world or didn't cover the most likely putting speeds/distance past hole. At best it is a wash if the flag is one of the supple, thin fiberglass sticks.

[braincramp52]

I've preferred it left in for the last 20 years. Not a doubt in my mind I putt better with it in.

[doublehans]

Whatever the differences are, most "results" suggest they are small. In that case, individual preferences might matter an order of magnitude more than the physics. If you've learned for 20years how to aim at an empty hole, you've got a lot of skill built up. Maybe for some guys the stick in will help correct some aiming flaws, but for a lot guys (and these guys on tour tend to be really putters already) what they've already gotten all those reps in is gonna work better (and hey even if it just "feels" better, putting is so much mental). So, there's an overriding possibility its not about how the ball bounces put what it does to how the players brain works when targeting. And since these guys have so much built up expertise one way, it should be no surprise they stick to that way.

To me, the more interesting part of this discussion (in regards to Tour habits) might be a decade+ from now when current juniors that might not have any built learning around pins out get to the Tour. That's really the first group that's not gonna have so much experience/learning with pins out. Maybe some of those guys during this period will convert to pins in. Who knows? But id guess this is a question that doesnt get answered by the current generation.

[golfgirlrobin]

The problem with the math is that it’s impossible to quantify comfort level. I love the flag in from any length but played the other day with a guy who complained on almost every green. No math was going to make him comfortable with it. Pro’s have been doing it the same way forever, lots just aren’t going to like change of any kind.

[JD3]

IN

[MUNIGRIT]

Funny thing with me looking back was people claimed that guys would leave it in and ram putts into the flag. For me I think of practice greens and you have putts pop out that aren't going that fast. Bryson has left it in today a lot though.

[Loki]

Flag OUT!!!! I HATE this covid "don't touch the flag" sh!t. Played at Snad Valley last week and they had plastic covers below the level of the green and my 10 footer for par bounced out. It went into the center of the cup and still bounced out. Luckily, the caddies we had insisted that it be counted as holed. We don't normally play that way, but they insisted and since we had a $10 bet on the line we said okay.

I can't stand it. Add the wind blowing the stick around and you piss me off even more.

[Red4282]

im an out guy unless 99% of the time. The Science is shaky at best. some flags lean, ya got wind blowing them around. For me taking flag out makes me really get my speed right instead of ramming everything into a backboard. The only instances where i leave it in is if theres no stoppin my ball, or i chip up to a few inches, and just tap in.

[Jc0]

Golf digest had a good scientific report on it saying flag out is better. It's a pretty in depth look.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time

[Loki]

If you want to think the science of pin in or out is shaky, that's fine, but you should really look at how the studies are done. It's pretty definitive that pin out yields the best results.

[EDT501]

Pin out is the only way to get the nice rattle after a made putt. That sound is easily worth the 0.2 stokes per round or whatever DeChambeau says the statistics show. I miss that sound in the covid era. I’m also tired of people blasting 5 footers through the break and bouncing it off the pin or lipping out a putt and calling it a “covid make.”

[MattyO1984]

Honestly, couldn’t care whether it was in or out. I’ve played plenty having it pulled and plenty just leaving it in. It honestly doesn’t bother me at all. The only thing that I would say is that I am glad it can just be left in now when it comes to long putts where before you might have needed to flag to be tended. I had a hard time not being distracted by someone standing there next to the hole, no that problem has gone.

[iBanesto]

Better out than in.

[Ferguson]

I shot two very low rounds this year with flag in, best in a while. I am no better as a ball-striker or driver.

The flag IN helps me with putting. Trying to hit the stick has reduced my low-side misses.

[braincramp52]

If Golf Digest says it's best way then it must be true.

[Soloman1]

Anecdotal, but I've never had a putt not go in because of having the flagstick in.

[pinhigh27]

Pretty scientific ?

thats laughable. There are huge variances between data sets obtained with similar reported methodology. One has 15/30 putts holed and the other has 25/30, so there’s a 33% variance within the same method. Unreliable.

this is a really basic concept, does the flag provide more of a backstop than the back of the hole ? Yes it does. Any putt hit hard enough where it will bounce off a properly holed flag is not going to stay in the hole without a flag.

[Loki]

ROFL, that's what you think, but you have no proof. Just because one person thought the world flat doesn't make it true.

[oikos1]

In or out? It all comes down to the issue of comfort, which ultimately leads one to a place of confidence. Which is quite significant to the game of golf.

[golfnz34me]

 

Given the conditions of the test, those variances are to be expected. When rolling a small round ball at a very small round flagstick such that the ball strikes the flag off-center, a minute difference in angle can result in a large difference in the direction the ball is deflected. And the device they use to control the direction of the putt isn't gonna give you accuracy to .1 mm.

 

The fact that so many of the off-center flag hits missed the hole when those same putts would have fallen if the flag was out is pretty damning evidence.

 

But even so, IMHO the psychological aspects are far more important anyway. Go with whatever gives you more confidence.

[davep043]

In my mind, the various studies have proven one basic thing. For a ball that would go in, the flagstick can only hurt. For a ball going too fast to go in, the flagstick can only help. If there's a reasonably high probability of going well past (say from 40 or 50 feet), I'll take the chance for the help, maybe the flagstick will make my second putt a closer one. I've I'm certain I can control the speed well, say 20 feet and in, the flagstick would come out. In between, its a guess.

[phil75070]

Out! I find with it in I tend to try to "die" putts into the hole, leaving way too many dead center and short, or putts that get just about to the hole then roll off to one side or the other. Going that slow the ball is susceptible to any grain or imperfection in the green. I lack the aggressiveness I used to have.

[Soloman1]

That's because the ball was traveling too fast at the hole.

I've never seen a putt get deflected by the flagstick that wasn't moving too fast at the hole.

That link says that the putts were set up for 32" putts that roll 5-7 feet (FEET!) past the hole. That's nuts. So the conditions of the test are only if you have a spasm or a heart attack during your backstroke and you accidentally hit the putt hard enough to knock it 5-7 feet past the hole.

So, that test proves that having the flagstick in only affects hackers and those with neurological or medical problems.

Real testing shows that you'll make more putts and misses will stop closer to the hole with the flagstick in. In some cases, you have a 4 times better chance of holing a putt with the flagstick in.

 

[MUNIGRIT]

I think we got a winner. Well its my thoughts too and whether its right or wrong it's how I approach the flag.

 

What I wouldn't do is be some loudmouth and say everyone is wrong and I'm right because of this study fits my narrative like I have seen someone do before.

[Gsea]

I just carried for a 17yr old girl in the state am. She was coached/trained that leaving the pin in was good. I told her no and had been pulling the flag for her, if you can see the hole for a variety of reasons. Long story short last day she has a 15ft birdie putt and I got lazy and let her put with the flag in. Perfect line maybe a a hair too quick but it dies at the hole so her putt dies perfectly hits the stick and plops out. Stick out another bird. She looked at me like OMG i'm so sorry. She will never leave the flag in again, learning moments. Great kid by the way.

[ThinkingPlus]

Another aspect that folks forget is that the tests were done with optimal pin placement. The pins were set very close to perfectly vertical which is a built in assumption to the tests as well as a very still pin. If you deviate from those conditions the pin in choice becomes even worse. Last time I checked many flags at the courses I frequent are anything but vertical and the wind blows the sticks around quite a bit. @davep043 has it right. If you have good control of speed, the flag should be out. If, for whatever reason, you don't have good control of speed on a putt then leave it in to minimize a dramatically bad outcome.

[Soloman1]

 

[MUNIGRIT]

Does that take into account the slope of the green?