Jim Herman wins. Is distance overrated?

[Titleist99]

Jim Herman, another short knocker wins on a 7100+ yard course with a 278 all drive average. Do you really need to swing out your shoes for 320, when accuracy is clearly more important?

[BigBlue7]

No - this is an outlier.  

Plus, most of the best players on Tour (and some of the longer hitters) weren't even in the field.

[jdl]

[QuigleyDU]

Sort answer. No distance is not overrated. But there is more to the game. 

[mackepa]

No. You’ll have a couple shorter players win occasionally but the PGA Tour in general is a bombers paradise. 

[smashdn]

Not overrated.  It is the variable with the most impact on scoring, most specifically remaining distance to the hole has the largest impact on whether the next shot goes into the hole.

 

If driving accuracy were equal (a variable removed) between two players.  Player A is 10% longer than Player B at driving.  Player B is a commensurate amount more accurate than Player A with irons.  Player A has the advantage. 

 

A shorter player has to be more accurate than another player is longer than he is, all other things being equal.  If I am hitting a 9 iron (160 yards) into a hole and you are hitting a 7 iron (180) your dispersion has to be better than mine from a mathematical standpoint to have the same results due to distance of the shots. You have to be a degree better again to have better results.

Edited August 19, 2020 by smashdn

[airjammer]

His stroke gained putting was like a 6.  Just stupid good putting week is the only way he won..period. His season sg putting is -.135

[Emthree]

About a 12 yard gap between irons, so 278 to 320 would be about 3/4 clubs difference, that's huge .... especially on PGA tour courses where there is either :

 

A) No "rough"

B) Uniform and manicured rough

C) Trampled rough when the galleries are present.

 

I'd take a 8 iron out of the rough Vs a 5 iron out of the fairway in almost every situation.

 

That's assuming the shorter hitter hits every fairway and the longer hitter misses every fairway (the reality in terms of fairway hit is probably a few percentage points difference). It gets to a point where the longer hitter is making more birdies when he is hitting fairways, than the shorter hitter on their best day.

[MattyO1984]

Is Distance Overrated?

 

No, Nee, Jo, Nai, Awa, Votch, Na, Ne, Tia, Nej, Nei, Non, Nein, Nahin, Nem, Tidak, Kani, Te, Neen, Tsia, Nao, Ag, Het...that should just about cover it.

Edited August 19, 2020 by MattyO1984

[dubbelbogey]

Distance is to golf as a fast engine is to car racing.

 

Very much better to have, than not. But is not the whole story.

[iutodd]

I think distance is properly rated. 
 

But clearly shorter guys can win. 
 

Brendon Todd has won twice this year I believe and he’s like 200th in distance. I seem to remember Ted Potter Jr. beating DJ at Pebble. 
 

Sedgefield also isn’t a bombers paradise. The rough was penal.  This is anecdotal at best but I wonder if there is another course on tour where guys hit something other than driver off the tee. It happens a LOT at Sedgefield because there are a lot of short par fours with restricted landing areas (creeks). Look at the guys who have had a lot of success there:

 

Snedeker has won twice and he’s currently 169th in driving distance. Si Woo Kim is 82nd.  Webb Simpson is 108th. JT Poston is 167th in distance. 
 

What happened at Sedgefield this weekend was definitely an outlier though...but it was because of the putting. I think Jim missed one fairway all weekend and then made like 300’ of putts over the two rounds - and he won by one stroke.  Jim wasn’t really even knocking wedges stiff all weekend - seemed like a bunch of 12-20 footers. 

[Frostfield]

It’s overrated by most of the general public.

[Old Tom Morris]

The short hitter can sometimes do well on rinky dink courses with weaker fields.    These are great opportunities for average players on the tour to make some money and get exemptions into majors.

[bofromseattle]

I would say that you don't need to hit 320yd every drive, but you have to be up there. Jim Herman won't win a lot of tournaments and neither will others who's drives are sub-290. Distance is important and so is course management and discipline. It all goes hand-in-hand.

[smashdn]

1 hour ago, iutodd said:

I think distance is properly rated. 
 

But clearly shorter guys can win. 
 

Brendon Todd has won twice this year I believe and he’s like 200th in distance. I seem to remember Ted Potter Jr. beating DJ at Pebble. 
 

Sedgefield also isn’t a bombers paradise. The rough was penal.  This is anecdotal at best but I wonder if there is another course on tour where guys hit something other than driver off the tee. It happens a LOT at Sedgefield because there are a lot of short par fours with restricted landing areas (creeks). Look at the guys who have had a lot of success there:

 

Snedeker has won twice and he’s currently 169th in driving distance. Si Woo Kim is 82nd.  Webb Simpson is 108th. JT Poston is 167th in distance. 
 

What happened at Sedgefield this weekend was definitely an outlier though...but it was because of the putting. I think Jim missed one fairway all weekend and then made like 300’ of putts over the two rounds - and he won by one stroke.  Jim wasn’t really even knocking wedges stiff all weekend - seemed like a bunch of 12-20 footers. 

 

Harbour Town would be another.  It isn't that the long guys can't win on those courses, they just don't have as big of an advantage.

[CactusGolf]

6 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

Jim Herman, another short knocker wins on a 7100+ yard course with a 278 all drive average. Do you really need to swing out your shoes for 320, when accuracy is clearly more important?

Does that driving distance take into account if he actually uses the driver on the hole being measured?

 

I've played Sedgefield a bunch when I lived down in Greensboro and driver off the tee really isn't needed on a majority of the holes.

[dakpery]

Length is overrated when you’re hitting out of 2 foot rough. Otherwise, your spread patterns tend to get smaller the closer your move to the hole.

[sailfishchris]

He putting for the most part (SAT and SUN) was otherworldly. It covered for his lack of distance

 

[Sean2]

Even though he is considered short, he hits it far enough. I am not sure, but I don't think Brendan Todd is a long hitter, and he has done okay this year. 

[iBanesto]

A weaker field will give short hitters are greater chance of winning.

[Hawkeye77]

Maybe not - Francisco Franco was a mere 5'4" and . . . he's still dead.

 

Somehow his situation reminded me of this topic.

Edited August 20, 2020 by Hawkeye77

[bladehunter]

No distance is king.       I had a 2 day event this past weekend. Led after 18 by a shot. Over a +3 college kid who smoked the ball. He hit hybrid to my 3 wood easily.  He swung hard at driver and I refused to opting for the fairway. It took hitting nearly every green and a streak of 1 putts from 7-11 to keep a lead on him.   And after all that I lost it on 18 to a bad luck tee ball that went OB.   He clipped me with a par.  I led 35 holes and distance got me as he punched 3 of the last 4 approaches into the green from less than 50 yards.  2 of them resulting in birdies.  Synopsis.  I had to play perfect golf to beat it.  And 1 swing lost it. Started the day with 1 shot cushion and 5 birdies wasn’t enough to win.  Why ?  Because his pars were stress free and the par 5s were automatic birdies .  
 

 

im used to being the longer player in my group.  This was the first time I’ve been on the flip side. And that shows me exactly what the advantage is.    Putter is the only way to combat it.  You’ve got to roll the rock to keep up.  

[Ironman_32]

Distance didn't matter at this course the same way it matters too much at other courses (thinking Bethpage 2019 PGA). 

 

Real question is how does Jim Herman, a defined "journeyman", have more PGA tour wins than Finau and Cantlay combined. 

[kwelifan]

He made almost 450 feet of putts last week and you are asking about distance?

[Man_O_War]

it is for the most part...few of the big hitters are deadly wedge players. when they are hot with the putter, they will have the advantage.  Mid hitter with incredible putting would dominate the tour.

[MtlJeff]

Distance is likely a bit overrated, but i'm talking about the pure bombers like Bryson or Champ etc...Most players on tour now are "bombers", the guys who carry it 250 have been weeded out for the most part by the time they make (or in this case, don't make ) the PGA tour.  Given the setups now i don't think carrying it 290 versus 315 makes much difference. Like i'm not sure it benefits much to be Bryson versus hitting it slightly over tour average, say. As it will come down to who is hitting more fairways and putting better anyway

 

It's kind of like asking if being a great athlete helps in the NBA. Truthfully there are all great athletes. it's one of the barriers to entry....i don't know if you can make the tour without being a long hitter...

 

With a few exceptions, this may be an exception. But it's an exception not a trend

[puresurfr]

I wouldn't consider Jim Herman a short hitter, he doesn't swing hard at all and he is not a impressive physical specimen but he is sneaky long.  Maybe he gained some pop lately ?  I saw his ball speeds off the driver at 171-173mph.  Thats not up there with the big boys but its not exactly a dinker either.  

[Myherobobhope]

12 minutes ago, MtlJeff said:

Distance is likely a bit overrated, but i'm talking about the pure bombers like Bryson or Champ etc...Most players on tour now are "bombers", the guys who carry it 250 have been weeded out for the most part by the time they make (or in this case, don't make ) the PGA tour.  Given the setups now i don't think carrying it 290 versus 315 makes much difference. Like i'm not sure it benefits much to be Bryson versus hitting it slightly over tour average, say. As it will come down to who is hitting more fairways and putting better anyway

 

It's kind of like asking if being a great athlete helps in the NBA. Truthfully there are all great athletes. it's one of the barriers to entry....i don't know if you can make the tour without being a long hitter...

 

With a few exceptions, this may be an exception. But it's an exception not a trend

I think it would be interesting to see how many standards of deviation off average driving distance tour winners were over time... 

 

I'm willing to bet that over the past 20 years, the various barriers to entry into tour play have solidified more... and most tour pros are close to the "average" performance in all stats across the board. 

 

Distance wise, with all else being equal, a longer drive is going to have a lower average score on a hole... but there is a reason guys like Finau aren't out driving Bryson. 

 

We've hit the peak of distance optimization via equipment, but I don't think we are anywhere near distance optimization for players... and as the longest players get longer, the "short knockers" are going to make less money and either adapt or retire. 

[Titleist99]

Anything over 295-300   yards off the tee is overvalued......IMO. The optimum driving distance is somewhere in that range. Anything more is counter productive.....Accuracy suffers and the body breaks down from the added torque and the rhythm of the swing becomes chaotic....Chasing distance is the main cause of the demise of a Touring pros career....IMO

[MtlJeff]

13 minutes ago, Myherobobhope said:

I think it would be interesting to see how many standards of deviation off average driving distance tour winners were over time... 

 

I'm willing to bet that over the past 20 years, the various barriers to entry into tour play have solidified more... and most tour pros are close to the "average" performance in all stats across the board. 

 

Distance wise, with all else being equal, a longer drive is going to have a lower average score on a hole... but there is a reason guys like Finau aren't out driving Bryson. 

 

We've hit the peak of distance optimization via equipment, but I don't think we are anywhere near distance optimization for players... and as the longest players get longer, the "short knockers" are going to make less money and either adapt or retire. 

 

Yes i agree with you. Typically longer is better, but as long as you are within a deviation as you say, you are probably fine. If a group of guys start getting much longer, than i agree others will have to follow suit or likely will not succeed on tour, or even fall off the tour

 

The math wins out over time. However long the better players get, others will need to keep up at least within a reasonable amount of that