Jim Herman wins. Is distance overrated?

[Myherobobhope]

59 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Anything over 295-300   yards off the tee is overvalued......IMO. The optimum driving distance is somewhere in that range. Anything more is counter productive.....Accuracy suffers and the body breaks down from the added torque and the rhythm of the swing becomes chaotic....Chasing distance is the main cause of the demise of a Touring pros career....IMO

I disagree... I do think there are diminishing returns on distance, but:

 

Anything more is counter productive: No... More distance is more distance. The closer you are to the hole, the lower your score is going to be... that's consistently backed up by data.

Accuracy Suffers: Disagree. Dispersion increases because the ball has traveled farther, but accuracy as measured by degrees offline seems to be pretty consistent across professional golf.

The body breaks down: Hard to disagree with this one, as I'm currently injured due to chasing distance... but probably overstated in terms of risk. How long do most professional golfing careers last? The additional torque might shorten a career, but we don't have the data.

The swing becomes chaotic: Chasing distance, yes, it can... but the Super Swing training has had some success in breaking down bad habits and forcing people to swing through... Finau uses his ability to generate speed to shorten his swing and improve control, but he can still swing hard... Honestly, he's going to be interesting to watch as he figures out how to balance power and control

Main cause of the demise: I think this is more the constant stream of newer, younger pros who have the time and the optimism to chase down their goals... I think you are going to see a number of players (hopefully safely) add some club head speed to make sure they aren't losing an advantage on the golf course... I don't think many will follow the Bryson model, but I bet a couple people work hard to add club head speed soon... 

 

Check back in 5 years, I bet we will see a significant increase in average distance (greater than the year to year average since the ProV1 growth spurt) as players figure out how to better incorporate faster clubhead speed into their game. 

 

From a statistics standpoint: Putting is basically maximized... most tour players are REALLY good putters and there isn't much they can do to improve... Around the green will always be important, but not something one can necessarily improve in the off season. Fairways shots and driving are two places where club head speed can add an advantage. Having less iron into a green means your average score will drop. People have started to figure out how to better train for distance, and those seeds have been planted... We will see if they bear fruit over the next few years, but I'm assuming longer is going to be better, even if shorter hitters can still compete, they will have to significantly outplay the longer hitters in other areas to succeed.

 

Thanks for coming to my TED talk. 

[Titleist99]

Tiger's putting can surely improve.....LOL!

I have a little experience of my own......chasing distance was my downfall. going from a fade to a draw was the beginning of the end for me, it forced me out f the game. I never got my swing back......but enough about me.

I now think that more pros should be more like Brendon Todd than Bryson DeChambeau....Consistency and accuracy vs swinging or the fences.....IMO

Edited August 20, 2020 by Titleist99

[Ferguson]

People with a first name for a last name are underrated. 

[smashdn]

4 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

Anything over 295-300   yards off the tee is overvalued......IMO. The optimum driving distance is somewhere in that range. Anything more is counter productive.....Accuracy suffers and the body breaks down from the added torque and the rhythm of the swing becomes chaotic....Chasing distance is the main cause of the demise of a Touring pros career....IMO

 

I don't think the strokes gained numbers necessarily support overvalued.  I will agree that in certain circumstances a 30 yard advantage is negligible, say when it results in a 50 year wedge shot as opposed to an 80 yard wedge shot.  But there are other times when 30 yards is a huge advantage, 110 yard approach versus 140 or 160 as opposed to 190.

 

We've discussed that accuracy has to be better the farther you hit to result in the same distances off-line.  A 1* mishit is more off-line driving it 320 as compared to a 1* mishit driving it 280.  But then you also have to factor in just how penal is the rough or resulting "miss."  Does the fact you are closer to the hole trump the fact that you are in the rough?

 

For the money involved in winning and winning now, I would be hard pressed to make the argument it is better that you can choose to throttle back and have a longer career but will likely win fewer times or you can chase distance and win more now at the cost of longevity.  A bird in hand is worth two in the bush sort of argument.  Kickers have longer careers than running backs but running backs make more money over their career, albeit short careers.

 

All that said, I don't personally like how the game has evolved at the pro level to be so distance-centric.  I worked hard for several years to keep the ball in front of me and keep it in the fairway.  I thought that was the way to lower scores.  My golf was "better" but my scoring didn't go down.  I couldn't score on the course until I had distance and serviceable accuracy off the tee.  Many par fives are less than 500 yards.  I duff it but am better than a bogey golfer on par fives.  Get close in two shots and get down in two shots.  It's like a driver , 5 iron at most.  Tacking it down the hole in three shots wasn't leading to scoring.  I was always closer to the hole chipping or pitching from around the green than I was playing a wedge from out in the fairway somewhere.

Edited August 20, 2020 by smashdn

[MtlJeff]

2 hours ago, Ferguson said:

People with a first name for a last name are underrated. 

I've long preferred people with a last name for a first name!

[freowho]

14 hours ago, Ferguson said:

People with a first name for a last name are underrated. 

I thought the saying was that they couldn't be trusted!

[freowho]

15 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

Tiger's putting can surely improve.....LOL!

I have a little experience of my own......chasing distance was my downfall. going from a fade to a draw was the beginning of the end for me, it forced me out f the game. I never got my swing back......but enough about me.

I now think that more pros should be more like Brendon Todd than Bryson DeChambeau....Consistency and accuracy vs swinging or the fences.....IMO

I think this is a misconception that many people fall for. A dipping ball can go further than a ballooning ball because of the run. But a healthy draw doesn't dip and a healthy fade doesn't balloon. They move a bit to the side at the end of their flight but maintain their position in the air for a long time. Bubba Watson's slice is actually a dipping ball which is why he can make it go so far. A lot of people chase distance by trying to hit a draw but just end up making the ball dip and end up fighting hooks. 

[Titleist99]

What good is hitting your driver 320 off the tee, somewhat wild to be penalized with 4-6" rough and can't get the ball within 30 feet with a wedge. Scrambling around the greens is usually a deficiency of the long hitters.....IMO

 

DeChambeau would be toast most tournament if it wasn't for his putter, which lately is a tremendous weapon.

[ConcernedBoutCOVID]

Distance is probably the most important of many factors.  But unless it results in closer prox to hole on GIR I don't think it matters as much as many think.

[cardoustie]

on the right course it can be

 

I have taken down 3 very long and very low + cappers straight up last 3 rounds at my home club.   All 3 of them bombers.  Like 50 yards past me and 340 off the tee,  But the tight holes handcuff these guys.  Such a massive advantage on par 5's.

 

Candidly, on a big wide open 7400 yard course they'd crush me

 

 

[jim rockford]

seems whenever the golf media says "XXXX is taking over" or "XXX is dead", it's often a good reverse indicator.

 

not that long ago, "shorter hitters are dead" was the rage.. now, we have jim herman....... also, how long is colin morikawa? of course, harding park is alot tighter than average pga layout....... serious question: is justin thomas a big hitter? he's not that big

 

a bit contradictory, but our top local pga touring pro says it is very tough to beat the top 10 long driving accomplished players in a tournament........ beating rory, bdc, koepka, dustin etc. etc. is not easy. if one of them putts well, mr. "290 drive" won't have much change

Edited August 27, 2020 by jim rockford

[gators78]

Bryson wouldn't risk his entire golfing career to make the changes he did for something that is overrated. Short hitters can win here and there, but over the long haul, the longer player will have an advantage. 

[llewol007]

Distance isn’t overrated nor is it a guarantee. Ask the long drive contestants and see how they would fair on a golf course. 

[Titleist99]

With fast greens I'd rather be hitting 290 from the fairway than 310 from the rough.....just me though.