Ball overhanging hole problem and clarification

[Augster]

Hey,

 

Sunday of our club championship. Let me know if I have it right, and if our committee got it right etc. 

 

Hole 17, par 3.  Player’s birdie putt looks like it’s rolling into the cup but stops on the lip overhanging the hole. He’s exasperated and can’t believe it. He doesn’t unduly delay or anything. Walks up to the ball on the lip. 
 

He looks at it for about 2 seconds and is going to tap it in. He gets over the ball and claims it’s still moving. So he steps back and away. We discuss. I’m counting in my head from the time he got up to the ball and “could” have tapped in. 
 

Because he can still see it moving he doesn’t want to tap in. After at least 10 seconds I mention, “That was at least 10 seconds” and he says it’s still moving, albeit very slowly. So we wait and I keep the count in my head going. At 27 seconds, give or take a couple, it finally falls in. 
 

I had always known the rule to be that once the momentum stops with the ball overhanging the hole, and the player arrives to where he could tap it in, he gets 10 seconds. Whether he claims it’s still “moving” or not. After 10, whether the ball falls in or not, it’s considered holed and you Mark, in this case, a 3 instead of a birdie 2. 
 

I had always seen it that way until Cabrera last week took way more than 10 seconds and was considered holed without penalty. 

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/tour-pro-20-seconds-to-drop

 

How do you rule on my CC situation? Any clarification? Thanks!

 

[Halebopp]

If the ball doesn't fall into the hole within those ten seconds, the ball is treated as being at rest. If the ball falls into the hole after the ten seconds, you add a penalty stroke to your score and you've holed out.

 

That video is pretty much useless as we can't see what Cabrera-Bello is doing. At what point does he arrive at the hole and was the time it took for him to get there reasonable (walk around other players lines of play)?

 

https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/the-rules-of-golf/rule-13#13-3a

[antip]

The rule is clear how it needs to operate, both Augster and Halebopp affirming it correctly here. For reasons that are beyond me, pro tours appear to consistently offer their members a very generous interpretation of reasonable time to get to the hole - it is very clear to me, they are not doing so consistent with the Rule that the rest of us are supposed to comply with.

A player's claim that "the ball is still moving" has zero continuing relevance after that 10 seconds after arriving.

[Colin L]

I don't know the proper physics of it, but have a notion that a ball which overhangs the hole and then topples in is probably imperceptibly moving all the time.  Irrelevant to the rules as Antip says but a matter to me of (mild) curiosity.  Any physicists around?  Can an object overhang a drop motionlessly and then start moving - apart that is from cartoon characters who were liable to go straight over a cliff, stop in mid-air and only start falling when they looked down and realised where they were. ?  

[antip]

15 minutes ago, Colin L said:

I don't know the proper physics of it, but have a notion that a ball which overhangs the hole and then topples in is probably imperceptibly moving all the time.  Irrelevant to the rules as Antip says but a matter to me of (mild) curiosity.  Any physicists around?  Can an object overhang a drop motionlessly and then start moving - apart that is from cartoon characters who were liable to go straight over a cliff, stop in mid-air and only start falling when they looked down and realised where they were. ?  

Well I'm no physicist, so won't speak to the 'it is continuously moving' issue, but a ball fully at rest overhanging the lip could still fall in due to the influence of wind, for example.  And where I grew up had very strongly grained greens and you could get the grain to 'lift' by casting a shadow on it on a sunny day - and in extreme cases, that could (reputedly) make an overhanging ball drop in.

[Augster]

When I’ve seen this before, and yesterday, is the ball rests for a little bit, the weight of it pushes down on one of the blades of grass which slowly gives way, then the ball moves a little more, then the next blade of grass stops it, the weight of the ball slowly pushes down on it and it gives way until, eventually, the ball falls in. 
 

The cabrera video, while zoomed in the entire time, is useful. The ball stops at the 6 second mark. What is a reasonably time to get there? 10 seconds? 15 seconds? The ball doesn’t fall in until 31 seconds. In my opinion, he either took an unreasonable amount of time to get up to the hole, or he waited more than 10 seconds if he took a reasonable amount of time. 25 seconds from stop until falling in is a LOT of time on a golf course. Especially since that was like a 20 footer. 
 

I’d like to see a clarification in the ROG. Make it 20 seconds total from the time it stops to the time it falls in. Regardless of what the player does or doesn’t do. It’d make sorting it out with a committee really, really easy. Even easier on the tour where there are cameras everywhere. If a “reasonable delay” plus 10 seconds is already on the books, why not just make it 20 seconds from the time it stops on the lip? If it takes more than 20 seconds from the time it stopped rolling, from the time it started overhanging the hole, would get rid of the “it’s still moving” claims. Once it stops, everyone in the group could start counting to 20. 

[rogolf]

8 minutes ago, Augster said:

When I’ve seen this before, and yesterday, is the ball rests for a little bit, the weight of it pushes down on one of the blades of grass which slowly gives way, then the ball moves a little more, then the next blade of grass stops it, the weight of the ball slowly pushes down on it and it gives way until, eventually, the ball falls in. 
 

The cabrera video, while zoomed in the entire time, is useful. The ball stops at the 6 second mark. What is a reasonably time to get there? 10 seconds? 15 seconds? The ball doesn’t fall in until 31 seconds. In my opinion, he either took an unreasonable amount of time to get up to the hole, or he waited more than 10 seconds if he took a reasonable amount of time. 25 seconds from stop until falling in is a LOT of time on a golf course. Especially since that was like a 20 footer. 
 

I’d like to see a clarification in the ROG. Make it 20 seconds total from the time it stops to the time it falls in. Regardless of what the player does or doesn’t do. It’d make sorting it out with a committee really, really easy. Even easier on the tour where there are cameras everywhere. If a “reasonable delay” plus 10 seconds is already on the books, why not just make it 20 seconds from the time it stops on the lip? If it takes more than 20 seconds from the time it stopped rolling, from the time it started overhanging the hole, would get rid of the “it’s still moving” claims. Once it stops, everyone in the group could start counting to 20. 

 

8 minutes ago, Augster said:

When I’ve seen this before, and yesterday, is the ball rests for a little bit, the weight of it pushes down on one of the blades of grass which slowly gives way, then the ball moves a little more, then the next blade of grass stops it, the weight of the ball slowly pushes down on it and it gives way until, eventually, the ball falls in. 
 

The cabrera video, while zoomed in the entire time, is useful. The ball stops at the 6 second mark. What is a reasonably time to get there? 10 seconds? 15 seconds? The ball doesn’t fall in until 31 seconds. In my opinion, he either took an unreasonable amount of time to get up to the hole, or he waited more than 10 seconds if he took a reasonable amount of time. 25 seconds from stop until falling in is a LOT of time on a golf course. Especially since that was like a 20 footer. 
 

I’d like to see a clarification in the ROG. Make it 20 seconds total from the time it stops to the time it falls in. Regardless of what the player does or doesn’t do. It’d make sorting it out with a committee really, really easy. Even easier on the tour where there are cameras everywhere. If a “reasonable delay” plus 10 seconds is already on the books, why not just make it 20 seconds from the time it stops on the lip? If it takes more than 20 seconds from the time it stopped rolling, from the time it started overhanging the hole, would get rid of the “it’s still moving” claims. Once it stops, everyone in the group could start counting to 20. 

The Rule is fine the way it is.  It's not only putts that stop on the lip of the hole, sometimes it's fairway shots.

[cardia10]

So if the ball is still seen to be moving, was it ever truly at rest?

[Sawgrass]

41 minutes ago, cardia10 said:

So if the ball is still seen to be moving, was it ever truly at rest?

It is deemed to be at rest after the waiting time:

 

From 13.3a:

 

If the ball does not fall into the hole in this waiting time:

• The ball is treated as being at rest.

•  

 

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, Colin L said:

I don't know the proper physics of it, but have a notion that a ball which overhangs the hole and then topples in is probably imperceptibly moving all the time.  Irrelevant to the rules as Antip says but a matter to me of (mild) curiosity.  Any physicists around?  Can an object overhang a drop motionlessly and then start moving - apart that is from cartoon characters who were liable to go straight over a cliff, stop in mid-air and only start falling when they looked down and realised where they were. ?  

 

Colin, I am sure you remember the old Decision about casting a shadow over an overhanging ball causing it to drop. Certain species of grass have a rapid tendency to react to changes of light but also to gravity. A ball visibly static may be sinking (and even start to sink) due to gravity and that sinking may or may not be directly towards the Earth's center of gravity or not. So, a ball may be travelling very slowly towards the hole and that motion is not visible to naked eye. Thus the Rule is good to have as it is, otherwise we would be waiting for 8 or 10 minutes like Don January did in Phoenix Open in 1963.

Edited August 24, 2020 by Mr. Bean

[James the Hogan Fan]

As the ball is treated as being at rest, if the ball starts to move (ie fall into the hole) and the player makes a stroke at it, is he penalized for making a stroke at a moving ball? 

[Mr. Bean]

16 minutes ago, James the Hogan Fan said:

As the ball is treated as being at rest, if the ball starts to move (ie fall into the hole) and the player makes a stroke at it, is he penalized for making a stroke at a moving ball? 

 

Good question. But, as the Rule says, that ball was deemed to be at rest, thus it cannot be a moving ball ?

 

Seriously, I would follow the principle behind that Rule and consider that ball to be holed with one stroke and no penalty. But if the player makes a stroke at that moving ball and fails to hole it the situation becomes rather complex and for that I have neither answer nor opinion. I am sure that happens only once in 246 years and I will not be there to ponder the question...

Edited August 24, 2020 by Mr. Bean

[Myherobobhope]

3 hours ago, Sawgrass said:

It is deemed to be at rest after the waiting time:

 

From 13.3a:

 

If the ball does not fall into the hole in this waiting time:

• The ball is treated as being at rest.

•  

 

I mean, the earth is rotating, the universe is expanding and atoms don't really stop... what are we but little balls always in motion? 

 

https://www.pgatour.com/news/2018/06/22/zach-johnson-ruling-2018-travelers-championship.html

 

I find this video and outcome to be interesting... he didn't stand OVER the ball for 10 seconds, he wasn't even really addressing the ball for 10 seconds. Like this situation, he pulled away because "the ball was moving" and it fell in and he got a penalty stroke. 

 

Thinking through the overall problem, it seems silly to create a rule where you are allowed "infinite" time for a ball to fall into the hole... at that point, you are waiting on a stiff breeze, the grass to grow or universal entropy to tear our world asunder (or a gopher, I guess). So logically, if we can't give infinite time, we have to put a time limit. They've somewhat split the baby, here... allowing you time to curse the fates and your caddy, giving the ball a chance to go in... and then upon address, you have 10 seconds more for the ball to fall in. 

 

There is nothing about stepping away from the ball once you've addressed it. Per the rules official, once you are in position to tap it in, you have 10 seconds. To a certain extent, the time to milk the clock has already passed.

 

At the end of the day:

He addressed the ball (timer started)

10 seconds passed (timer ended)

The ball fell into the hole

Apply a one stroke penalty and move on... 

 

Per 13-3 - 

If any part of a player’s ball overhangs the lip of the hole:

• The player is allowed a reasonable time to reach the hole and ten more seconds to wait to see whether the ball will fall into the hole.

• If the ball falls into the hole in this waiting time, the player has holed out with the previous stroke.

• If the ball does not fall into the hole in this waiting time:

  • The ball is treated as being at rest.

  • If the ball then falls into the hole before it is played, the player has holed out with the previous stroke, but gets one penalty stroke added to the score for the hole.

 

He reached the hole, and the ball did not fall in after 10 seconds. It's treated as being at rest... and I think the fact that the rules stipulate that after 10 seconds the ball is declared AT REST would overrule a player declaring that it's still moving. 

 

It's a bad break for the player, but I think the rule is clear, and he should have taken a penalty stroke.

[Colin L]

If you read through the rule you've quoted again, you'll see that it says nothing about addressing the ball.  The player is given reasonable time to "reach the hole", that's all.  When he arrives beside the hall,  the countdown begins.

Edited August 24, 2020 by Colin L

[antip]

And if the gopher intrudes, it is all over red rover, the time count is irrelevant, ball must be replaced on the lip of the hole and played.

[nsxguy]

Pretty funny. I happened to be watching the broadcast, but only looked up from my computer to see the ball on the lip. Augster's timing is correct but we don't see what C-B was doing during those 25 seconds.

 

They did show it on replay later in the broadcast and I have a Tivo so I could rewind. The TV shot was better than the Instagram video. I recall the ball stopping at :06, saw C-B hanging out waiting for something and doing the usual eye roll/look to Heaven/whatever before he started to the hole. Once he GOT to the hole it was right about at the 10 second mark when it dropped. i.e. too close to call.

 

So from the ball stopping at :06, then :xx, then walking to the hole (approx :08), then :10 waiting = 24 seconds. The missing 7 seconds were him, once the ball stopped, looking towards the heavens saying "Why me ?"

 

Is that walking to the hole without undue delay ? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Net-net I think C-B was too close to call.

 

But Matsuyama a year ago ? This immediately brought to mind Matsuyama almost exactly a year ago. I started the thread. IMO, Matsu got away with it. Most of the opinions on the thread disagreed. After seeking absolution from above Matsu got within a step or 2 and then veered AWAY from the hole to watch some more. Matsu should have gotten to the hole at :58 (on the video clock). THAT is when his 10 seconds should have started. It fell it at :11. In my mind clearly late.

 

Thread - https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1646430-did-matsuyama-get-away-with-one/

 

Video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAaF5CCC6eY

 

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

Pretty funny. I happened to be watching the broadcast, but only looked up from my computer to see the ball on the lip. Augster's timing is correct but we don't see what C-B was doing during those 25 seconds.

 

They did show it on replay later in the broadcast and I have a Tivo so I could rewind. The TV shot was better than the Instagram video. I recall the ball stopping at :06, saw C-B hanging out waiting for something and doing the usual eye roll/look to Heaven/whatever before he started to the hole. Once he GOT to the hole it was right about at the 10 second mark when it dropped. i.e. too close to call.

 

So from the ball stopping at :06, then :xx, then walking to the hole (approx :08), then :10 waiting = 24 seconds. The missing 7 seconds were him, once the ball stopped, looking towards the heavens saying "Why me ?"

 

Is that walking to the hole without undue delay ? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

 

This is exactly what Arnold Palmer is describing in his great book Playing By The Rules on p. 140-141. In Honda Classic year 2000 Brian Gay walked up to his ball right away and waited 3 seconds too late and was DQ'd. As Palmer describes 'Had he fallen on his knees and groaned in agony... slowly righted himself and waived to the crowd before walking to the ball he would have been well within the 10-second limit'.

 

IMO looking at the sky for 7 seconds is not what is expected of a player.

 

[antip]

16 hours ago, rogolf said:

 

The Rule is fine the way it is.  It's not only putts that stop on the lip of the hole, sometimes it's fairway shots.

I have a different view for balls played from the putting green - the current formula is a recipe for gaming - so many pros indulge. Rather than attempting to identify the indefinable concept of 'reasonable' time including 'time for a player's natural or spontaneous reaction to the ball not going in the hole', (do you really want to encourage Academy Award performances of falling to the ground and thrashing around 'spontaneously'?) I would say please come up with a straightforward, unambiguous formula that treats everyone equally. For example, available time is 20 seconds from when ball gets to the overhanging position, no exceptions, then everyone and their dog can count it down and we don't need officials exercising arbitrary discretion. Alternatively, but less attractive to me, is require the player to move directly to the hole within 5 seconds of the putt with any longer time to commensurately reduce the further 10 seconds available when the player gets to the hole.  IMO, what we have now on the putting green is needlessly ugly.

 

 

[limegreengent]

Absolutely agree with Antip and Augster. ✅

At present the only consistent part of the current rule for all players is the 10 seconds when reaching the hole..

A 20 seconds time constraint for all strokes played from the green would remove all theatricals by the player, eliminate the different speeds of walking and circuitous routes to the hole.

Most significantly it would provide consistency for all rulings and not depend on the judgements of a referees, etc which by their vary nature must vary.

In respect of strokes played from off the green overhanging the hole - which would be a very small percentage of the total- the current rule  can remain..- if the ball is going to drop it will do so long before you reach the green.

 

 

[nsxguy]

7 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

This is exactly what Arnold Palmer is describing in his great book Playing By The Rules on p. 140-141. In Honda Classic year 2000 Brian Gay walked up to his ball right away and waited 3 seconds too late and was DQ'd. As Palmer describes 'Had he fallen on his knees and groaned in agony... slowly righted himself and waived to the crowd before walking to the ball he would have been well within the 10-second limit'.

 

IMO looking at the sky for 7 seconds is not what is expected of a player.

 

 

While I agree looking at the sky for 7 seconds may not be what's expected of a player, you can't take all human/natural reaction away from the players and make them robots. Look at how many more Mr Beans we'd have.

 

But perhaps that's the reasoning behind the wording "undue delay" ?

 

 

7 hours ago, antip said:

I have a different view for balls played from the putting green - the current formula is a recipe for gaming - so many pros indulge. Rather than attempting to identify the indefinable concept of 'reasonable' time including 'time for a player's natural or spontaneous reaction to the ball not going in the hole', (do you really want to encourage Academy Award performances of falling to the ground and thrashing around 'spontaneously'?) I would say please come up with a straightforward, unambiguous formula that treats everyone equally. For example, available time is 20 seconds from when ball gets to the overhanging position, no exceptions, then everyone and their dog can count it down and we don't need officials exercising arbitrary discretion. Alternatively, but less attractive to me, is require the player to move directly to the hole within 5 seconds of the putt with any longer time to commensurately reduce the further 10 seconds available when the player gets to the hole.  IMO, what we have now on the putting green is needlessly ugly.

 

 

 

A specific time would certainly clear things up but that means the player has to start mentally counting asap, instead of emoting for a short time. Not always easy to do.

 

But at least now, if such an infraction is discovered after the fact, the Rules have greatly softened the DQ situation by allowing the score to be increased if the player didn't know he'd committed an infraction instead of the old automatic DQ.

 

Maybe the best course is to leave it as it is ?

 

[Mr. Bean]

58 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

While I agree looking at the sky for 7 seconds may not be what's expected of a player, you can't take all human/natural reaction away from the players and make them robots. Look at how many more Mr Beans we'd have.

 

But perhaps that's the reasoning behind the wording "undue delay" ?

 

 

 

A specific time would certainly clear things up but that means the player has to start mentally counting asap, instead of emoting for a short time. Not always easy to do.

 

But at least now, if such an infraction is discovered after the fact, the Rules have greatly softened the DQ situation by allowing the score to be increased if the player didn't know he'd committed an infraction instead of the old automatic DQ.

 

Maybe the best course is to leave it as it is ?

 

 

Indeed that is the best course and the referee will decide whether there was an undue delay.

 

As a sidekick I would mention that the player cannot always or even in most cases see if the ball is overhanging. This leads to a situation where the player should always assume the ball is overhanging and act accordingly and that does not mean looking at the sky for 7 seconds...

[Sawgrass]

33 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Indeed that is the best course and the referee will decide whether there was an undue delay.

 

As a sidekick I would mention that the player cannot always or even in most cases see if the ball is overhanging. This leads to a situation where the player should always assume the ball is overhanging and act accordingly and that does not mean looking at the sky for 7 seconds...

Or, instead of fighting human nature, if you wish to be strict the rules could have you simply count the seven second up-stare as part of the 10 seconds waiting period.

 

I'm not in favor of legislating the emotion out of golf.

[Mr. Bean]

5 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

Or, instead of fighting human nature, if you wish to be strict the rules could have you simply count the seven second up-stare as part of the 10 seconds waiting period.

 

I'm not in favor of legislating the emotion out of golf.

 

So, when would YOU start the clock? Before, after or during the emotion..? And while you are at it, do define the 'undue delay' in this context, just for us to use in the future.

Edited August 25, 2020 by Mr. Bean

[Sawgrass]

Just now, Mr. Bean said:

 

So, when would YOU start the clock? Before, after or during the emotion..?

I would allow for legitimate emotion (not exaggerated) prior to arriving at the ball, and I would be very liberal about judging it.

 

I'm a fan of 13.3a/1.

[Mr. Bean]

24 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

I would allow for legitimate emotion (not exaggerated) prior to arriving at the ball, and I would be very liberal about judging it.

 

I'm a fan of 13.3a/1.

 

'Determining the limits of a reasonable time to reach the hole depends on the circumstances of the stroke and includes time for a player’s natural or spontaneous reaction to the ball not going into the hole.'

 

Indeed, but seven (7) seconds..? That is far from spontaneous.

[nsxguy]

4 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

'Determining the limits of a reasonable time to reach the hole depends on the circumstances of the stroke and includes time for a player’s natural or spontaneous reaction to the ball not going into the hole.'

 

Indeed, but seven (7) seconds..? That is far from spontaneous.

 

Try it.

 

Check the second hand on your watch.

 

And then,,,,,,,,

 

say to yourself "I can't believe it. That HAS to go in." Look up briefly, bend over and place your hands on your knees briefly, straighten up, shake your head and start walking.

 

7 seconds ? Easy. 

[2bGood]

23 hours ago, Sawgrass said:

I would allow for legitimate emotion (not exaggerated) prior to arriving at the ball, and I would be very liberal about judging it.

 

I'm a fan of 13.3a/1.

 

I can't say I am wild about the rule. As I read it, it is somewhat unfair. 

 

If a ball at rest spontaneously moves and falls in the hole, it does not count and you need to replace it, but if ball spontaneously moves and rolls further from the hole you must play from its new spot (further from the hole).

 

...But given I can't ever recall having this situation having an effect me, overall I am not too fussed. 

Edited August 26, 2020 by 2bGood

[oikos1]

"Because he can still see it moving he doesn’t want to tap in. After at least 10 seconds I mention, “That was at least 10 seconds” and he says it’s still moving, albeit very slowly. So we wait and I keep the count in my head going. At 27 seconds, give or take a couple, it finally falls in. "

 

Looks like ten seconds isn't enough time as the ball was clearly still in motion.  Appears to be an arbitrary golf rule that in this case penalizes a player if the "ten second" rule is applied.

[rogolf]

32 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

"Because he can still see it moving he doesn’t want to tap in. After at least 10 seconds I mention, “That was at least 10 seconds” and he says it’s still moving, albeit very slowly. So we wait and I keep the count in my head going. At 27 seconds, give or take a couple, it finally falls in. "

 

Looks like ten seconds isn't enough time as the ball was clearly still in motion.  Appears to be an arbitrary golf rule that in this case penalizes a player if the "ten second" rule is applied.

It may seem arbitrary to you, but it was implemented for very good reason and has survived the test of time.  After a reasonable amount of time for the player to reach the ball/hole, and another 10 seconds, the ball is deemed to be at rest; whether it is or not at rest is irrelevant.

One could argue that the three minute search Rule is also arbitrary, but it is the Rule.

[Augster]

I feel our committee got the score correct, but I’m fairly certain it was for the wrong reasons. 
 

They kept asking us if the ball had come to rest. Well, it must have as it didn’t roll straight into the hole. But the player insisted it was still moving. I didn’t see it. I was counting. 
 

The committee counted it as a 3 because they got the player to admit that at some point, the ball had stopped moving, even for a second or two, and that’s when his 10 seconds would start if he was close enough to see it move or not. I was 6 feet away and it certainly looked at rest to me. 
 

I tried to explain how I read the rule as once the momentum has stopped and it didn’t roll in, whether it’s still moving or not, the player had a reasonable time to get to the ball, then 10 more seconds. At that point, after those 10 seconds, the ball is deemed to be at rest whether it’s moving or not. If it subsequently falls in, it’s the same score as if the player had tapped in. 
 

Thanks for all the help on this.  I’m glad my reading of the rule was correct. Or at least, I think it is. When he got to the ball, that’s when I started my SLOW count in my head. It’s also why I told him, after getting to 10 seconds in my head (which is more like 13 I am sure), I told him, “That’s at least 10 seconds.” Hoping he’d tap it in before it had a chance to fall in and create this whole mess.