Miracle Swing Experience( former My Swing Evolution) is a Charlatan!

[SwagGolf6112]

15 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Sounds like reasonable post. Just a heads up, one element of making your posts come off as abnormal, is your use of different fonts, colours and bolding. In the written forum world, using the default font size and colour is the 'normal' way to communicate and is done in 99.9% of posts on this forum. When you start over using a mix of  unique fonts, it makes your post come off 'unique' - and not in a good way. Go easy on the red copy, bolding and large font sizes as it makes it seem like you are yelling at us with a wacky voice.

 

Will take your advice sir. Thank you.

 

And if during my crazy rant if I did offend you, either directly or indirectly in any way shape or form I do apologize sir. Appreciate your input in all of this.

 

Cheers sir!

[snick59]

51 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Sounds like a reasonable post. Just a heads up, one element of making your posts come off as abnormal, is your use of different fonts, colours and bolding. In the written forum world, using the default font size and colour is the 'normal' way to communicate and is done in 99.9% of posts on this forum. When you start over using a mix of  unique fonts, it makes your post come off 'unique' - and not in a good way. Go easy on the red copy, bolding and large font sizes as it makes it seem like you are yelling at us with a wacky voice.

 

2 hours ago, SwagGolf6112 said:

Ok, folks...

 

I apologize if my method and language have been childish and bordering on looney.

 

 

I respect all your opinions and would respectfully like to get back to hoping that one day MSE will show us that all shot vlog with a credible witness.

 

 

Until then... 

 

Hey, MSE. Apart from the fact that I think you're not truthful about your abilities and I really do hope you prove me wrong....

 

I APOLOGIZE FOR MY HARSH LANGUAGE TOWARDS YOU. I GOT CARRIED AWAY. MY BAD. 

 

You're not a criminal. You're just someone who is also passionate about Hogan as we all are. 

 

 

I will be waiting for you to prove me wrong... 

 

Cheers MSE!

 

Best Regards,

SwagGolf6112

 

 

 

 

 

p.s.

To all forum member who respond to this post. I respectfully accept all your arguments and I agree that you all have a good point sirs and madams.

 

I will now shut the f*** up and go out to the range and do what I love the most.... try to find that "magic" Hogan formula. Have a lovely day folks.

I’m not sure if I’m included in your apology but I’ll accept it just the same, I would also like to extend my apologies as well to you and any others I’ve offended. We are all here for the same thing to discuss the great swing of Ben Hogan.....no need for personal attacks...and hopefully we will get to see that on course vlog by MSE, so he can at least try to validate what he’s selling. 
Cheers 

 

 

[EmperorPenguin]

Dude, this thread is indeed loony.  It is like a child screaming at a wall, hoping to get a response.  Does Christo even have an account here at GolfWRX?

 

My overall take on Christo is that he is certainly better than the average golfer, but I am not a big fan of Hogan's swing so I don't care for his swing.  Five Lessons is outdated instruction, yet is the foundation of MSE.  Certainly better than no instruction, and because he does not have a homemade swing that goes nowhere we must at least give him that.

 

Primarily I am curious of his handicap index.  Is he a +5?  We all know he is certainly not.  I am also curious to how much he has made from his YouTube channel and his schools.  Of course he will never tell us, but he will never be a YouTube star unless he wins tournaments.

 

Regardless of which swing model you follow, the bottom line was uttered by Hogan himself: "The secret's in the dirt."  

[powerfade66]

19 minutes ago, EmperorPenguin said:

Dude, this thread is indeed loony.  It is like a child screaming at a wall, hoping to get a response.  Does Christo even have an account here at GolfWRX?

 

My overall take on Christo is that he is certainly better than the average golfer, but I am not a big fan of Hogan's swing so I don't care for his swing.  Five Lessons is outdated instruction, yet is the foundation of MSE.  Certainly better than no instruction, and because he does not have a homemade swing that goes nowhere we must at least give him that.

 

Primarily I am curious of his handicap index.  Is he a +5?  We all know he is certainly not.  I am also curious to how much he has made from his YouTube channel and his schools.  Of course he will never tell us, but he will never be a YouTube star unless he wins tournaments.

 

Regardless of which swing model you follow, the bottom line was uttered by Hogan himself: "The secret's in the dirt."  

Not a fan of Hogan’s swing yet you find yourself in a Hogan forum? 
 

Christo started in WRX, with occasional videos on various non Hogan stuff. Seemed like just a guy with some impressive video editing skills that was getting more into golf. 

[double_d]

I have no idea who the guy you are insulting is so, I have no skin in the game. 

Your post is kinda nutty.

 

I do, however, have a comment regarding the definitions you included in your posts, you forgot one:

 

li·bel

/ˈlībəl/

1.

1. LAW

   a published false statement that is damaging to a person's reputation; a written defamation.

 

 

This is preeeetty close, if not all the way there.

Edited October 22, 2020 by double_d

[powerfade66]

7 minutes ago, double_d said:

I have no idea who the guy you are insulting is so, I have no skin in the game. 

Your post is kinda nutty.

 

I do, however, have a comment regarding the definitions you included in your posts, you forgot one:

 

li·bel

/ˈlībəl/

1.

1. LAW

   a published false statement that is damaging to a person's reputation; a written defamation.

 

 

This is preeeetty close, if not all the way there.

Preeeetty close to what? Who has defamed who? Christo defamed the Hogan Estate? Or swag defamed a guy pimping off the reputation of a golfer who was regarded by the overwhelming majority of the greats of the game as the best ball striker that ever lived? Someone who during his lifetime was successful in suing publishers for doing exactly what Christo is now doing? 

[double_d]

I think it is obvious what I mean.

 

The title of the thread sets the entire tone: 

 

"My Swing Evolution is a Charlatan!"   

OP is probably libeling whoever the guy he is insulting (I guess Christo) is in the original post. 

 

In fact the more I read he at the very least has should send a cease and desist letter. Possibly bring a libel case.

 

In my opinion the mods ought to shut this thread down. 

 

This Christo guy is not a public figure and the OP is attacking his character, and livelihood and not presenting his views as opinion but as fact. He presents it all as fact right from the thread title.

Edited October 22, 2020 by double_d

[powerfade66]

8 minutes ago, double_d said:

I think it is obvious what I mean.

 

The title of the thread sets the entire tone: 

 

"My Swing Evolution is a Charlatan!"   

OP is probably libeling whoever the guy he is insulting (I guess Christo) is in the original post. 

 

In fact the more I read he at the very least has a cease and desist case. Possibly Libel.

 

In my opinion the mods ought to shut this thread down. 

 

This Christo guy is not a public figure and the OP is attacking his character, and livelihood and not presenting his views as opinion but as fact. He presents it all as fact right from the thread title.

The truth is a defence to defamation. If a charlatan is a charlatan, then they are a charlatan. They have not been defamed.

 

Cease and desist is not a case. It is the polar opposite. It is an informal mechanism of avoiding there subsequently being a case. 

Edited October 22, 2020 by powerfade66

[double_d]

ok I changed the wording of this sentence to be more in line with what I mean from a legal standpoint:

 

In fact the more I read, he at the very least has should have a cease and desist letter be sent but, they are pretty weak.  Possibly bring a libel case.

 

So your argument is that the Christo guy is somehow defaming Hogan. Good luck with that. 

 

The title of the thread is libelous.

 

The OP is attacking the Christo's character and livelihood with a statement of fact that he attempts to back up with what amounts to opinions and conjecture.

 

I'm pretty much done with this thread if your argument is that somehow that Ben Hogan is the wronged party. On what grounds anyway? (This should be good)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2020 by double_d

[powerfade66]

3 minutes ago, double_d said:

ok I changed the wording of this sentence to be more in line with what I mean from a legal standpoint:

 

In fact the more I read, he at the very least has should have a cease and desist letter be sent but, they are pretty weak.  Possibly bring a libel case.

 

 

 

 

If I was representing swag I would cite Hogan v Barnes and the special disadvantage of Hogan not being here to defend himself and then I would ask the judge for a costs order. Though I may have some fun with it and tease out what exactly has Christo thinking he has cracked “the Hogan code” and what is his measure of having achieved that. Which students of his are as prolific as Hogan in playing to such a level that even a horrific car accident doesn’t slow down their ability to execute near flawless shotmaking “like punching out bottle caps”. He can’t even break 40 for 9 holes himself. 

[double_d]

If I was representing swag I would cite Hogan v Barnes and the special disadvantage of Hogan not being here to defend himself and then I would ask the judge for a costs order.

 

Why would Hogan be defending himself if he's the Plaintiff in your argument? The burden of proof that somehow he is being wronged is on him and that would fall to his estate. His being alive or not won't matter if he is the Plaintiff. His estate would be bringing any suit and they would need to use the tools at their disposal. If he is using Hogan's image without the estates consent based on the case you cited they would be able to argue that.

 

Though I may have some fun with it and tease out what exactly has Christo thinking he has cracked “the Hogan code” and what is his measure of having achieved that. 

 

That doesn't matter unless Hogan has patented or trademarked "The Hogan code" Christo can use it. Hogan would certainly have a trademark on his name used in reference to golf or golf equipment. So that may be an angle for you to take but, without a trademark on the entire sentence I think you are going to be done. There is a golf instructor Gerry Hogan who made some videos,  if he tried to use "The Hogan code" for his video you'd never be able to stop him.

 

Which students of his are as prolific as Hogan in playing to such a level that even a horrific car accident doesn’t slow down their ability to execute near flawless shotmaking “like punching out bottle caps”. He can’t even break 40 for 9 holes himself. 

 

The effectiveness of his teachings are completely speculative so you'd have a hard time arguing that. You can't argue that he has no tour level students and his playing ability is not relevant to his teaching ability. You wouldn't be able to argue that since he isn't as good as Hogan he can't use the name. Like I said it's conjecture. It's opinion. 

 

Nice work though. It might be a valid misdirection or counter argument if Christo went after the original poster for libel but, you'd have a hard time proving Hogan was somehow wronged.

[powerfade66]

You’ve completely missed my point. Swag merely establishes Christo is a charlatan by using the name of the deceased for gain when that deceased has previously taken action successfully on exactly that.

 

Your Gerry Hogan point is ridiculous. The Hogan Code is more than just words, Christo refers specifically to BEN Hogan throughout.

 

Absolutely you can argue his lack

of ability and lack of credentials generally, it goes to whether he is a charlatan and engaging in misleading and deceptive conduct. It shows swag is not damaging his reputation. That IS his reputation for good reason. He is preying on those that don’t know he is a phoney and can’t see behind the impressive video production and loud talking. Calling him out as a charlatan is in the public interest. There is no malicious intent. 

[2bGood]

16 hours ago, EmperorPenguin said:

Dude, this thread is indeed loony.  It is like a child screaming at a wall, hoping to get a response.  Does Christo even have an account here at GolfWRX?

 

My overall take on Christo is that he is certainly better than the average golfer, but I am not a big fan of Hogan's swing so I don't care for his swing.  Five Lessons is outdated instruction, yet is the foundation of MSE.  Certainly better than no instruction, and because he does not have a homemade swing that goes nowhere we must at least give him that.

 

Primarily I am curious of his handicap index.  Is he a +5?  We all know he is certainly not.  I am also curious to how much he has made from his YouTube channel and his schools.  Of course he will never tell us, but he will never be a YouTube star unless he wins tournaments.

 

Regardless of which swing model you follow, the bottom line was uttered by Hogan himself: "The secret's in the dirt."  

Not sure where that came from. The biggest personalities on Youtube aren't known to do well in tournaments. 

Edited October 23, 2020 by 2bGood

[anth]

This is fast becoming an all time GolfWRX thread. Pass the popcorn

[moehogan]

[Woodridge]

I don't get the insanity. I'll fess up....I own the Hogan code ebook and video. I also own the Todd Graves book....I also own the Tahata Golf Training Program....I also own Hogan's 5 lessons....I also own McLean's book on Hogan's swing....I also own a 1982 copy of The Golfing Machine....I also own Bobby Clampett's Impact Zone....I could keep going, But are we seeing the pattern yet? I enjoy different theories on the golf swing. As someone who was taught the Square to Square golf swing as a junior back in the early 1970's, it is all progress from there. I find the information in the Hogan code video and ebook well presented, interesting and worth the money that I invested.

 

If someone feels like the guy is not who he portrays himself to be, then don't give him your money. It's pretty simple...

 

If you want to read about a real golf system debacle, read the article below on the Square to Square swing which Golf Digest crammed down people's throats in its magazine.

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/is-this-the-worst-golf-instruction-book-of-all-time

Edited October 25, 2020 by Woodridge
spelling

[SwagGolf6112]

On 10/23/2020 at 5:35 AM, powerfade66 said:

You’ve completely missed my point. Swag merely establishes Christo is a charlatan by using the name of the deceased for gain when that deceased has previously taken action successfully on exactly that.

 

Your Gerry Hogan point is ridiculous. The Hogan Code is more than just words, Christo refers specifically to BEN Hogan throughout.

 

Absolutely you can argue his lack

of ability and lack of credentials generally, it goes to whether he is a charlatan and engaging in misleading and deceptive conduct. It shows swag is not damaging his reputation. That IS his reputation for good reason. He is preying on those that don’t know he is a phoney and can’t see behind the impressive video production and loud talking. Calling him out as a charlatan is in the public interest. There is no malicious intent. 

 

Thank you sir.

I don't think anybody who sees the point of my post could've said it any better. But I guess to some people, the integrity and good name of Ben Hogan isn't worth defending. Their logic is very strange indeed. 

 

 

 

To anybody else in case I wasn't being clear on my earlier posts. Here's a very simple version so there can be no doubt to my intentions

 

1) While MSE isn't a certified golf instructor or a PGA Professional he "sells" e-books and golf clinics based of the fact that he says he knows Ben Hogan's secret and this said knowledge lowered his scores and he can now shoot in the 70s and have even shot under par because of this said knowledge.

 

2) MSE has not provided any evidence of his scores and abilities based off of this claim.

 

3) After he had published his e-book, the only all shot golf vlogs showing MSE skills is from another youtuber's channel. We can clearly see that he sucks. This alone should be a major red flag to anybody with a semblance of common sense.

 

4) Neither he nor his students has responded and showed any evidence to refute my point.

 

5) And still to this day, no all shot vlog with a credible witness from MSE to clear his name and proof to his customers that he is truthful in his advertisement to sell his product.

 

 

If this can't get the point across then we'd just have to agree to disagree.

 

But I will die on this hill regarding this issue until MSE proves otherwise. Cheers!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by SwagGolf6112

[SwagGolf6112]

On 10/22/2020 at 7:29 PM, double_d said:

I have no idea who the guy you are insulting is...

 

And yet you chose to defend the guy. SMH

 

[SwagGolf6112]

On 10/22/2020 at 10:55 AM, snick59 said:

 

I’m not sure if I’m included in your apology but I’ll accept it just the same, I would also like to extend my apologies as well to you and any others I’ve offended. We are all here for the same thing to discuss the great swing of Ben Hogan.....no need for personal attacks...and hopefully we will get to see that on course vlog by MSE, so he can at least try to validate what he’s selling. 
Cheers 

 

 

 

Yes, including you Snick. Cheers man!

[SwagGolf6112]

On 10/25/2020 at 9:12 AM, Woodridge said:

I don't get the insanity. I'll fess up....I own the Hogan code ebook and video. I also own the Todd Graves book....I also own the Tahata Golf Training Program....I also own Hogan's 5 lessons....I also own McLean's book on Hogan's swing....I also own a 1982 copy of The Golfing Machine....I also own Bobby Clampett's Impact Zone....I could keep going, But are we seeing the pattern yet? I enjoy different theories on the golf swing. As someone who was taught the Square to Square golf swing as a junior back in the early 1970's, it is all progress from there. I find the information in the Hogan code video and ebook well presented, interesting and worth the money that I invested.

 

If someone feels like the guy is not who he portrays himself to be, then don't give him your money. It's pretty simple...

 

If you want to read about a real golf system debacle, read the article below on the Square to Square swing which Golf Digest crammed down people's throats in its magazine.

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/is-this-the-worst-golf-instruction-book-of-all-time

 

And all those books and lessons was at least from someone with credentials and have proven themselves in one way or another in the field. 

 

Same thing can't be said about MSE.

[powerfade66]

[virtuoso]

Exactly what's supposed to happen. Before the voluntary transaction, consumers can see both positive and negative reviews of the product and decide for themselves. Imagine this: they can look at the bad reviews....and even the good reviews too...and all of those in-between. How cool is that?

 

It was interesting to see that he got a lot more good reviews than bad....even with one guy giving him a bad review twice. LOL.

[2bGood]

On 10/24/2020 at 7:12 PM, Woodridge said:

I don't get the insanity. I'll fess up....I own the Hogan code ebook and video. I also own the Todd Graves book....I also own the Tahata Golf Training Program....I also own Hogan's 5 lessons....I also own McLean's book on Hogan's swing....I also own a 1982 copy of The Golfing Machine....I also own Bobby Clampett's Impact Zone....I could keep going, But are we seeing the pattern yet? I enjoy different theories on the golf swing. As someone who was taught the Square to Square golf swing as a junior back in the early 1970's, it is all progress from there. I find the information in the Hogan code video and ebook well presented, interesting and worth the money that I invested.

 

If someone feels like the guy is not who he portrays himself to be, then don't give him your money. It's pretty simple...

 

If you want to read about a real golf system debacle, read the article below on the Square to Square swing which Golf Digest crammed down people's throats in its magazine.

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/is-this-the-worst-golf-instruction-book-of-all-time

 

I am an objective observer. I have no skin in the game either way, but I would say allot of your points are pretty easy to argue away.

 

Not being a PGA Pro or Certified instructor does not necessary disqualify someone from providing valuable advice to golfers particularly when it is focused on a niche area (ie like replicating the Hogan swing). Though it is not the majority, there are plenty of examples of reputable individuals selling golf advice with no certification. 

 

One of your points is that he is not a 'good' player. The way you write it you make it sound like his claim is that he can shoot in the 70's. As golf claims go, being able to break 80 is not really a big deal. You don't need to be particularly exceptional to do it or even have a fundamentally strong swing. If he made an outrages claim, like he is tour caliber or somethingI I would be interested in him proving it, but to claim you are capable of shooting 7-9 over par from time to time, I am willing to  accept that with out much proof or evidence as I am not impressed either way. No need to provide shot by shot vlogs (I mean who does that anyway?)

 

You seem to imply that his ability to shoot low rounds is directly related to his ability to provide valuable golf advice. This is not the case. The pro that assist me the most is someone I can beat just about any day we golf and a number of top 100 instructors are not what you call great golfers nor are many that provide great golf knowledge. What MSE seems to be peddling is kind of interesting, in that it seems to be his own personal experience in becoming a better golfer. It is an average golfers point of view for average golfers on how to get to be slightly less average😀. 

 

Your point about thinking the one round on YouTube shows him looking like a dodgy golfer. Sure he does not look great, but one round or in this case several shots from one round does not mean a golfer is trash or incapable of shooting x or y score.

 

The other point I will hit on is that the lack of his students/supporters coming to his aid in this thread. I don't think he has that many students, and this thread does not draw that any eyes. No big surprise that you don't have students weighing in left and right.

 

What I will say is you could be 100% correct in that MSE is a scammer, but as an objective observer I don't find you argument  convincing. For the little I watched on youtube, his schtick seems to be: I was a bad golfer, I got better (and documented it) and I will share with you how I did it.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 28, 2020 by 2bGood

[powerfade66]

6 hours ago, 2bGood said:

 

I am an objective observer. I have no skin in the game either way, but I would say allot of your points are pretty easy to argue away.

 

Not being a PGA Pro or Certified instructor does not necessary disqualify someone from providing valuable advice to golfers particularly when it is focused on a niche area (ie like replicating the Hogan swing). Though it is not the majority, there are plenty of examples of reputable individuals selling golf advice with no certification. 

 

One of your points is that he is not a 'good' player. The way you write it you make it sound like his claim is that he can shoot in the 70's. As golf claims go, being able to break 80 is not really a big deal. You don't need to be particularly exceptional to do it or even have a fundamentally strong swing. If he made an outrages claim, like he is tour caliber or somethingI I would be interested in him proving it, but to claim you are capable of shooting 7-9 over par from time to time, I am willing to  accept that with out much proof or evidence as I am not impressed either way. No need to provide shot by shot vlogs (I mean who does that anyway?)

 

You seem to imply that his ability to shoot low rounds is directly related to his ability to provide valuable golf advice. This is not the case. The pro that assist me the most is someone I can beat just about any day we golf and a number of top 100 instructors are not what you call great golfers nor are many that provide great golf knowledge. What MSE seems to be peddling is kind of interesting, in that it seems to be his own personal experience in becoming a better golfer. It is an average golfers point of view for average golfers on how to get to be slightly less average😀. 

 

Your point about thinking the one round on YouTube shows him looking like a dodgy golfer. Sure he does not look great, but one round or in this case several shots from one round does not mean a golfer is trash or incapable of shooting x or y score.

 

The other point I will hit on is that the lack of his students/supporters coming to his aid in this thread. I don't think he has that many students, and this thread does not draw that any eyes. No big surprise that you don't have students wishing in left and right.

 

What I will say is you could be 100% correct in that MSE is a scammer, but as an objective observer I don't find you argument  convincing. For the little I watched on you tube, his stick seems to be, I was a bad golfer, I got better (and documented it) and I will share with you how I did it.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

That would all be fine if he didn’t pimp off the reputation of the best ball striker in history to increase sales. (I cracked) “The Hogan Code” has a very distinct meaning. He has used his Hogan knowledge to become a player that is probably in the bottom 10% of players on this forum that study Hogan. That is highly misleading and deceptive.

 

A lot of people will purchase purely because of the Hogan name and his editing skills “just in case it is good”. They won’t look around for reviews. The Amazon reviews are not on his website. Virtuoso you have no issue with this, would you be comfortable walking into Hogan’s office if you were Christo?

[2bGood]

3 hours ago, powerfade66 said:

That would all be fine if he didn’t pimp off the reputation of the best ball striker in history to increase sales. (I cracked) “The Hogan Code” has a very distinct meaning. He has used his Hogan knowledge to become a player that is probably in the bottom 10% of players on this forum that study Hogan. That is highly misleading and deceptive.

 

A lot of people will purchase purely because of the Hogan name and his editing skills “just in case it is good”. They won’t look around for reviews. The Amazon reviews are not on his website. Virtuoso you have no issue with this, would you be comfortable walking into Hogan’s office if you were Christo?

 

Great counter point. I suspect that hogan is perhaps the most studying swing in golf, and it influences many instructors. Claiming to have "Hogan's Secret" or the key to Hogans swing is not really too novel. The number of books, articles and videos on the topic is immense.

 

MSE seems to have spent a large amount of timing working on replicating Hogan's swing, in some ways it would be wrong if he did not credit the inspiration for the swing.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 28, 2020 by 2bGood

[SwagGolf6112]

10 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Exactly what's supposed to happen. Before the voluntary transaction, consumers can see both positive and negative reviews of the product and decide for themselves. Imagine this: they can look at the bad reviews....and even the good reviews too...and all of those in-between. How cool is that?

 

It was interesting to see that he got a lot more good reviews than bad....even with one guy giving him a bad review twice. LOL.

 

8 hours ago, 2bGood said:

 

I am an objective observer. I have no skin in the game either way, but I would say allot of your points are pretty easy to argue away.

 

Not being a PGA Pro or Certified instructor does not necessary disqualify someone from providing valuable advice to golfers particularly when it is focused on a niche area (ie like replicating the Hogan swing). Though it is not the majority, there are plenty of examples of reputable individuals selling golf advice with no certification. 

 

One of your points is that he is not a 'good' player. The way you write it you make it sound like his claim is that he can shoot in the 70's. As golf claims go, being able to break 80 is not really a big deal. You don't need to be particularly exceptional to do it or even have a fundamentally strong swing. If he made an outrages claim, like he is tour caliber or somethingI I would be interested in him proving it, but to claim you are capable of shooting 7-9 over par from time to time, I am willing to  accept that with out much proof or evidence as I am not impressed either way. No need to provide shot by shot vlogs (I mean who does that anyway?)

 

You seem to imply that his ability to shoot low rounds is directly related to his ability to provide valuable golf advice. This is not the case. The pro that assist me the most is someone I can beat just about any day we golf and a number of top 100 instructors are not what you call great golfers nor are many that provide great golf knowledge. What MSE seems to be peddling is kind of interesting, in that it seems to be his own personal experience in becoming a better golfer. It is an average golfers point of view for average golfers on how to get to be slightly less average😀. 

 

Your point about thinking the one round on YouTube shows him looking like a dodgy golfer. Sure he does not look great, but one round or in this case several shots from one round does not mean a golfer is trash or incapable of shooting x or y score.

 

The other point I will hit on is that the lack of his students/supporters coming to his aid in this thread. I don't think he has that many students, and this thread does not draw that any eyes. No big surprise that you don't have students weighing in left and right.

 

What I will say is you could be 100% correct in that MSE is a scammer, but as an objective observer I don't find you argument  convincing. For the little I watched on youtube, his schtick seems to be: I was a bad golfer, I got better (and documented it) and I will share with you how I did it.  

 

40 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

 

Great counter point. I suspect that hogan is perhaps they most studying swing in golf, and it influences may instructors. Claiming to have "Hogan's Secret" or the key to Hogans swing is not really too novel. The number of books, articles and videos on the topic is immense.

 

MSE seems to have spent a large amount of timing working on replicating Hogan's swing, in some ways it would be wrong if he did not credit the inspiration for the swing.

 

With all due respect to both of you. I'd have to ask both of you this...

 

So false advertisement means nothing to you sirs?

 

So as long as the consumer did pay money for his product on their own free will. The seller does not need to be held responsible for that said product not working as advertised? Is this really ok in your book?

 

If that is the case then I'd have to accept that we have totally different perspective regarding ethics or this matter.

 

 

 

 

MSE is still a fraud until proven otherwise.

 

[2bGood]

1 hour ago, SwagGolf6112 said:

 

 

 

With all due respect to both of you. I'd have to ask both of you this...

 

So false advertisement means nothing to you sirs?

 

So as long as the consumer did pay money for his product on their own free will. The seller does not need to be held responsible for that said product not working as advertised? Is this really ok in your book?

 

If that is the case then I'd have to accept that we have totally different perspective regarding ethics or this matter.

 

 

 

 

MSE is still a fraud until proven otherwise.

 

No false advertising is not okay. I think we can agree on that.

 

I guess what we may not agree on is what MSE is advertising. I could have it wrong, but my understating he he selling his swing theories based on studying Hogans swing. Having never bought his product I can not attest  wether that is what you will receive from him, but from what I can see that is what he is delivering. Personally I think his stuff looks pretty cheesy, but not quit approaching 'the hammer' status.

 

Here is the add for his video:

 

The Hogan Code is Christo Garcia's best-selling instructional video based on Ben Hogan's 5 Lessons. Christo used the book to transform his game and become the face of the Ben Hogan Golf Company. In this video you will learn all of the techniques and drills Christo used to build a true Hogan swing!  A swing so good that Christo was even hired to portray the Hawk in the The Golf Channel Special "Hogan."  Start building your Hogan swing today!

 

To my Knowledge it all seems accurate: 1. This is likely his best selling instruction video (he only has two I think). 2. Christo did document transforming his game using Hogans 5 five lessons. 3. Don't know if you will learn his drills and techniques, but not buying the video to find out. I assume they are on the video 4. Yes he did portray the Hawk...

 

Here is his other video:

 

Learn Christo’s proven method of increasing your swing speed and hitting longer drives. Users have reported adding over 20 yards to their drives and increasing their swing speed by 21 mph in only the 2nd training session.

Special Features Include: Fitness Workout and Nutrition Information.

 

Okay this one is a bit rich, but like most of the advertising claims it is worded in way that is not false advertising and only referring to some very isolated cases of big yardage gains. Not that hard to believe, as I have been able to teach a few golfers how to the ball 20 yards further before in only a few swings. Heck the other day I had a big slicer hitting draws with a setup adjustment and a few practice swing. There is lots of low hanging fruit out there.

 

Again I will say you could be very much correct in your assertions about MSE. This is not a court of law, but typically someone does not have to prove that they are NOT a criminal (fraud). Typically you have to prove they are.

[virtuoso]

Powerfade, i havent read his book, but i assume id write it differently. But having written it like id want to, id be happy to go into Hogan's office to see if i could get a testimonial:

 

"Virtuoso's unique insight into the mysteries surrounding my swing taught me things even I wasn't aware of."

 

                                                      Ben Hogan

 

But seriously, I don'r feel near ready to attempt such a book......but if I did, the theme would be: What Hogan said he did vs what we saw him do, ie, the feels he esposed and how they translated to the actual biomechanics, kinematics, and kinetics of his swing.

 

I've probably seen 20 of Christo's videos but nothing too recent. I'm subscribed to his youtube channel but havent kept up with it. Most of the stuff i saw was perfectly fine with one exception: The Hogan Roll.

 

A few other teachers of note have talked about the idea that Hogan rolled the face shut on the early downswing, and then held it square to the arc through the hitting zone. That is the worst theory ever.

[SwagGolf6112]

20 hours ago, 2bGood said:

No false advertising is not okay. I think we can agree on that.

 

I guess what we may not agree on is what MSE is advertising. I could have it wrong, but my understating he he selling his swing theories based on studying Hogans swing. Having never bought his product I can not attest  wether that is what you will receive from him, but from what I can see that is what he is delivering. Personally I think his stuff looks pretty cheesy, but not quit approaching 'the hammer' status.

 

Here is the add for his video:

 

The Hogan Code is Christo Garcia's best-selling instructional video based on Ben Hogan's 5 Lessons. Christo used the book to transform his game and become the face of the Ben Hogan Golf Company. In this video you will learn all of the techniques and drills Christo used to build a true Hogan swing!  A swing so good that Christo was even hired to portray the Hawk in the The Golf Channel Special "Hogan."  Start building your Hogan swing today!

 

To my Knowledge it all seems accurate: 1. This is likely his best selling instruction video (he only has two I think). 2. Christo did document transforming his game using Hogans 5 five lessons. 3. Don't know if you will learn his drills and techniques, but not buying the video to find out. I assume they are on the video 4. Yes he did portray the Hawk...

 

Here is his other video:

 

Learn Christo’s proven method of increasing your swing speed and hitting longer drives. Users have reported adding over 20 yards to their drives and increasing their swing speed by 21 mph in only the 2nd training session.

Special Features Include: Fitness Workout and Nutrition Information.

 

Okay this one is a bit rich, but like most of the advertising claims it is worded in way that is not false advertising and only referring to some very isolated cases of big yardage gains. Not that hard to believe, as I have been able to teach a few golfers how to the ball 20 yards further before in only a few swings. Heck the other day I had a big slicer hitting draws with a setup adjustment and a few practice swing. There is lots of low hanging fruit out there.

 

Again I will say you could be very much correct in your assertions about MSE. This is not a court of law, but typically someone does not have to prove that they are NOT a criminal (fraud). Typically you have to prove they are.

 

I get your point sir. Totally reasonable. Cheers sir.

[SwagGolf6112]

20 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Powerfade, i havent read his book, but i assume id write it differently. But having written it like id want to, id be happy to go into Hogan's office to see if i could get a testimonial:

 

"Virtuoso's unique insight into the mysteries surrounding my swing taught me things even I wasn't aware of."

 

                                                      Ben Hogan

-> I'd totally buy your book.

 

Quote

But seriously, I don'r feel near ready to attempt such a book......but if I did, the theme would be: What Hogan said he did vs what we saw him do, ie, the feels he esposed and how they translated to the actual biomechanics, kinematics, and kinetics of his swing. --> Great theme, and exactly what's been on our minds regarding Hogan's secret.

 

I've probably seen 20 of Christo's videos but nothing too recent. I'm subscribed to his youtube channel but havent kept up with it. Most of the stuff i saw was perfectly fine with one exception: The Hogan Roll. --> So you're fine with his "deep takeaway" technique as well? We all know Hogan did not such thing. He took the club away from the ball straight. His flat swing wasn't a product of the deep take away or his height, but because of his unique mechanic.

That's juvenile on MSE part to assume as such. Like I said, MSE uses "old wives tales" of what people interpret Hogan mechanics to be. The deep take away is one of them. People think "oh, he swings flat. That means he must really swing around his body more than up and down". MSE knows that as long as he stays close to the general theme of what the general consensus of Hogan's expert's interpretations he'll be safe. He just re-name them to make it seem original.

 

A few other teachers of note have talked about the idea that Hogan rolled the face shut on the early downswing, and then held it square to the arc through the hitting zone. That is the worst theory ever. --> That sir, we can totally agree on. Hogan did no such manipulation on the downswing. After the free ride he just let it rip. Or should I say "let it rip" from the top without fear of OTT or flip.

 

The point I'm arguing here isn't only on MSE lessons which he charge a hefty fee for. But also on the fact that MSE himself being the one who sells it can't replicate any of those mechanics on his real swing. Why?

 

Because like you said Virtuoso and I quote...

 

"Theorizing is an important first step, but you have to actually go out and see if an insight is valid and do-able in practice. It's super easy to move the club, at speed, into magical conditions in your brain. The actual driving range and a video machine tend to b%&*-slap people back into reality."

 

From watching MSE own videos to the BeBetterGolf playing vlog. We can clearly see that reality did b%&*-slap MSE back to reality. 

 

 

MSE fail to even replicate the lessons he taught in his own e-books and clinics. If that's not the definition of a Charlatan then I don't know what is sir.

 

 

Edited October 29, 2020 by SwagGolf6112