Moving to lighter graphite iron shafts and effects on the swing

[AppState09]

Part technical question part swing question. 
 

I made a drastic change in my irons and wedges with my first upgrade in 10 years. Went from PX 6.5s (Flighted) in 710 AP2s to PING Alta Red stiff in my i500s. Looking at specs the shafts are probably 40-50+ grams lighter and I am sure the heads are lighter as well. I have been hitting a consistent fade or push but hitting my driver, FWs and hybrid normal typically a slight draw when I swing correctly. 
 

I’ve been hitting huge divots to the left and I feel like I have no room to come from the inside. When I try to come from inside I hit behind the ball and will do it on normal swings too. 
 

Had a range session tonight at the end and at my wits’ end I tried to flatten my swing trying to feel the shaft point more left at the top. I began to sweep the ball and hit it straighter. 3 balls times in a row, problem solved...today
 

My question, would a dramatic change in weight and SW cause me to swing steeper and upright? Seems like it would explain why my other clubs I didn’t replace or reshaft change ball flight characteristics. I fit into these wonderfully vs the Mizuno optimizer suggestion of KBS Tour S+. I didn’t automatically start swinging upright when I tried them, perhaps it happened over time since I’ve had them for about a month. 
 

As time goes on I am sure more folks will make the change from steel to graphite like me and may run into the same issue or have had the same issue. Any technical thoughts or explanations?

 

PS the PING Alta Red stiff is a pretty stout shaft for the weight. 
 

Thanks in advance!

[jpbova]

the alta reds stiff are 83grams.  the PX 6.5s are 130grams.  Why did you make this change?  the mizuno shaft optimizer, generally, will give you a good place to start.  When I swing a shaft that is too light, I can't feel where the head is in my swing.  It throws off your timing

Edited September 15, 2020 by jpbova

[kylemd]

I recently went from Matrix Program 130’s ( 115 grams ?) to some 80 gram Padersons. Initially hit everything out on the toe. Started slapping on lead tape club by club and its helped alot. It takes a while to get used to the reduces SW. My only issue now is everything wants to draw which is ok but the higher ball flight is nice. The Matrix Programs definitely play stiffer to flex ( for me ) than the newer shafts. May end up going back to the programs and just weakening the lofts some. I definitely had trouble feeling the club head initially and agree it threw the timing off during the swing. I was also getting steep due to compensations during the swing. Brain was going “ club head .... where are you”! Its better now but still need a few rounds and range time to dial it in. Havent made up my mind yet. I also think the difference in tourque of the two different shafts plays alot into it as well. 

[AppState09]

23 minutes ago, jpbova said:

the alta reds stiff are 83grams.  the PX 6.5s are 130grams.  Why did you make this change?  the mizuno shaft optimizer, generally, will give you a good place to start.  When I swing a shaft that is too light, I can't feel where the head is in my swing.  It throws off your timing

My main reasoning for going to graphite was a decrease in play, decrease in club head speed and considering I kept my last set for 10 years I will want to keep these for another 10 into my 40’s. Sold off all my old sets and just did recoup the cost!

 

I asked the fitter that I wanted to try graphite, he was not pushy. The numbers were just as good a touch higher and a bit less spin, I believe. I definitely wanted to get out of X because I felt like I had to overswing to meet the club head speed criteria. 
 

I can’t say I have lost a sense of the club head, can’t hook them really to save my life and I can tell when the face is open. I try not to think of releasing at all, used to be very wristy.  My swing plane may have changed and I lost sense of that. 
 

Overall I am happy with the change. Just curious if the change in weight makes it easier to make the plane steeper since there is less weight to bring the club flatter? Maybe because of gravity? Haha

[AppState09]

13 minutes ago, kylemd said:

I recently went from Matrix Program 130’s ( 115 grams ?) to some 80 gram Padersons. Initially hit everything out on the toe. Started slapping on lead tape club by club and its helped alot. It takes a while to get used to the reduces SW. My only issue now is everything wants to draw which is ok but the higher ball flight is nice. The Matrix Programs definitely play stiffer to flex ( for me ) than the newer shafts. May end up going back to the programs and just weakening the lofts some. I definitely had trouble feeling the club head initially and agree it threw the timing off during the swing. I was also getting steep due to compensations during the swing. Brain was going “ club head .... where are you”! Its better now but still need a few rounds and range time to dial it in. Havent made up my mind yet. I also think the difference in tourque of the two different shafts plays alot into it as well. 

Hit mine terribly when I first got them and they felt so awful, I was thinking about how big of a mistake I made. I have adjusted but so has my swing, like you. They are fun and definitely a conversation starter on the range since I’m in my early 30 with graphite shafts. Thank you for your input!

[kylemd]

Appstate: 

Appstate as in Appalachian State in Boone NC? I am from Greensboro my self and went to ECU. 
 

I am still in the adjustment phase I guess. I just have the low cap mentality of dont want the ball going left unless I wanted it too. I like the programs but Made the switch to try and increase distance some and try a lighter weight shaft. 

[AppState09]

Just now, kylemd said:

Appstate: 

Appstate as in Appalachian State in Boone NC? I am from Greensboro my self and went to ECU. 
 

I am still in the adjustment phase I guess. I just have the low cap mentality of dont want the ball going left unless I wanted it too. I like the programs but Made the switch to try and increase distance some and try a lighter weight shaft. 

Yes sir! Looking forward to our football match up next year, if we go back to normal. Y’all grabbed a good coach.

 

I think it will be good move for me. I hope they work out for you!

[jvincent]

The one time I tried to go into light graphite it was a total disaster.

 

You're basically going to have to relearn your swing by losing that much weight.

[Exactice808]

Hey OP my useless $0.02

personally I am a person that believes in matching the shaft to the player, you cant hit the ball if you cannot deliver the head efficiently to the ball.

 

OK got that out of the way,

 

Generally speaking,  Shaft weight pairs with a players tempo.  The faster the tempo the heavier the shaft. the slower or more deliberate the tempo the lighter the shaft.

 

From there the player moves to the lightest shaft they can can control the best. 
 

 

120-130gram shafts to 85gram shafts is a HUGE drastic change Generically thats a 40gram change, if you dont think thats bad, Imagine going from a 60gram driver shaft to a 20gram driver shaft or a 60gram shaft to a 100gram shaft thats HUGE.

OK 2 more additional points.  I see it happen all the time since I play with older players. They "Think" that because they are older and lose swing speed it means they need to change to a lighter club, to get their swing speed back.  The problem is again their "Swing profile" is the same, their tempo is the same, they just swing slower over all.  This does NOT mean going to a lighter shaft will be an ultimate problem solver, but actually hurt their swing in control-ability.

 

Last point, you stated that when you were with the fitter you found that the numbers were just as good with a little less spin.  This is one of the things that bothers me when I am in the hitting bay.  I look over at the screen and the screen looks like a fireworks display.  BUT they got some massive distance shots.  What they dont realized is that they gained artificial distances at the sacrifice of their swing profile and dispersion.  If it was a single cannon line I would say hey thats a great shot, but seriously it looks like the 4th of july.  DID you in fact have a nice solid line of shots with equitable distances or was it a spray and pray lines?

 

 

Now a reverse test, do you still have your old clubs?  Take those out for a little bit and see if things start to straighten out? It might as the clubs better match your over all swing profile and tempo.  AGAIN you could decrease the weight but the lightest weight you can control the best, maybe its some 115gram shafts and not 85's

 

Buddy of mine did the EXACT same thing went from DGS300 (130grams) to Graphite 55grams saying he was getting old.  I had an old set of Dynalite XPs (115gram) and he shot some of the best golf he has ever shot as it matched his tempo better.

 

 

light is not always better for some players!  Young or old!

Edited September 15, 2020 by Exactice808

[jeffrey r]

OP, I am not sure I saw the reasoning for you going from heavy stiff steel shafts, to ultra-light graphite in your 30s.  First of all, there are plenty of lighter weight steel shafts that could have been a middle ground, PX LZ, Modus 105/120 (even 950), KBS Tour 105/C-Taper Lite/90, True Temper DG 105/Elevate 105 (Tour), etc.  Plus, within the graphite realm, there really is a big difference between the lighter stock shafts, and the premium graphite shafts like the Recoil 95/110, Steelfiber 90/95/110/115, etc. 

 

So, I would say that you may have gone a bit too far down to these light graphite shafts, even if they are still somewhat stiff.  The weight is probably really throwing you off, and you can try to adjust, but it could be difficult.  Good luck--hope you sort it out.

[Ri_Redneck]

I agree with all of the above. A 20 gm change will typically feel like a lot to most golfers. Can't imagine 50g! When I changed from steel to graphite, I was in my early 40s. But I was doing it because of pain and wasn't looking for any more distance. I found I liked graphite iron shafts in the 115g range with fairly low torque ratings and have played my best golf with them. I've used Steelfiber, Aldila, Matrix and UST. I am REALLY curious about the MRC MMT, but will have to wait until I'm finished with the current investment situation.

 

BT

[kylemd]

This has me seriously thinking about going BACK to my Matrix programs. I still have them shafted up with MP 29 heads in the shop ( I never get rid of clubs lol .... wife rolls eyes) May try the ole lead tape on the back of the shaft trick too on the padersons just to see what happens. 

[gripandrip]

I think ExacticeBOB has a good point. I have a relatively smooth tempo, and made the change from DG300S to Steelfiber i95S.  About a 25g shift in shaft weight. 

 

I had no concerns with this change. My backup set still has the DG300s and I switch between the bags occasionally with no real effect. 

 

FYI. I'm almost 60 years old, but did not make the change due to that. I just fell in love with the SF's after hitting them and fitting.

[AppState09]

16 hours ago, Exactice808 said:

Hey OP my useless $0.02

personally I am a person that believes in matching the shaft to the player, you cant hit the ball if you cannot deliver the head efficiently to the ball.

 

OK got that out of the way,

 

Generally speaking,  Shaft weight pairs with a players tempo.  The faster the tempo the heavier the shaft. the slower or more deliberate the tempo the lighter the shaft.

 

From there the player moves to the lightest shaft they can can control the best. 
 

 

120-130gram shafts to 85gram shafts is a HUGE drastic change Generically thats a 40gram change, if you dont think thats bad, Imagine going from a 60gram driver shaft to a 20gram driver shaft or a 60gram shaft to a 100gram shaft thats HUGE.

OK 2 more additional points.  I see it happen all the time since I play with older players. They "Think" that because they are older and lose swing speed it means they need to change to a lighter club, to get their swing speed back.  The problem is again their "Swing profile" is the same, their tempo is the same, they just swing slower over all.  This does NOT mean going to a lighter shaft will be an ultimate problem solver, but actually hurt their swing in control-ability.

 

Last point, you stated that when you were with the fitter you found that the numbers were just as good with a little less spin.  This is one of the things that bothers me when I am in the hitting bay.  I look over at the screen and the screen looks like a fireworks display.  BUT they got some massive distance shots.  What they dont realized is that they gained artificial distances at the sacrifice of their swing profile and dispersion.  If it was a single cannon line I would say hey thats a great shot, but seriously it looks like the 4th of july.  DID you in fact have a nice solid line of shots with equitable distances or was it a spray and pray lines?

 

 

Now a reverse test, do you still have your old clubs?  Take those out for a little bit and see if things start to straighten out? It might as the clubs better match your over all swing profile and tempo.  AGAIN you could decrease the weight but the lightest weight you can control the best, maybe its some 115gram shafts and not 85's

 

Buddy of mine did the EXACT same thing went from DGS300 (130grams) to Graphite 55grams saying he was getting old.  I had an old set of Dynalite XPs (115gram) and he shot some of the best golf he has ever shot as it matched his tempo better.

 

 

light is not always better for some players!  Young or old!

Thank you for your input. I don't have my old clubs, I sold them off. Now that I have had them a few weeks I am pretty acclimated to them, I am sure my old irons would feel like shovels (everyone mentioned how heavy they were). I hoped to make up for "control-ability" with better tempo. 

 

Dispersion was fine with graphite vs steel no big differences either way. 

[shaolingolfer]

I switched from Modus 120 (115gish) to MMT 80 (86gish).  First I get fit with PXG and actually really enjoy the lighter graphite shaft.  When the clubs arrived, I went to Range and a few times and can't hit it at all, distance or direction.  Take the clubs to another club fitter, hit it in the bay and measure the swing weight, it is very very far off from D3 which I prefer, slapped a bunch of weight on to the head and it completely transform the clubs.  I am hitting my irons better than ever last couple months.  

 

So check your swing weight and go buy some lead tape from Amazon.

[Exactice808]

14 minutes ago, AppState09 said:

Thank you for your input. I don't have my old clubs, I sold them off. Now that I have had them a few weeks I am pretty acclimated to them, I am sure my old irons would feel like shovels (everyone mentioned how heavy they were). I hoped to make up for "control-ability" with better tempo. 

 

Dispersion was fine with graphite vs steel no big differences either way. 

My pleasure I hope you get it sorted out.

Here is a concern that I have, 

 

1) "im sure my old irons would feel like shovels"  I am concerned that it is in peoples head.  if a "Shovel" Produced the most efficient swing, meaning you can get the head to the ball consistently and this also mechanically moved you in positions to swing the most efficient in speed. how is that a bad thing?

1a) Consider this,  100mph driver swing speed vs a 95mph driver swing speed now pair,  the 100mph swinger has an efficiency of 1.43 average, giving 143mph of ball speed at anyone time, SURE they catch one solid that gives them 150mph, but rare.   Now you have the 95mph swinger that is slower but swings at near 1.49 all the time due to efficiency or producing 1.42mph ball speed all day and all night.

which would you have, 100mph with a 1.43smash all over the planet, or 95 with 1.49 repeatable swing?

 

 

2) You hoe to make up control ability with better tempo!  Well that answers this question, if you are willing to go through the learning curve of redoing your tempo, that is basically the answer if you want to play these irons, yo need to match now your swing to the irons, rather than match your irons to your natural swing.  

 

 

3) Finally I am confused?  How was your dispersion "fine" when you stated in your first post, you are taking huge divots left and hitting behind the ball.  My apologies if this seems combative, I am asking to help so please take this as respectful as possible.  What is "fine" in consideration.  It sounds like you are struggling to make solid contact with these clubs? Or more so consistent depth control with the clubs.   

 

3a) the point is if you are struggling with depth control (Deep divots vs chunks behind the ball) this "might" (I use might very loosely) over powering the shaft to swing "at" the ball,  like you stated your tempo is all over the place causing swing control issues.

 

 

Anyways you said it right.... You need to revamp your tempo to better sync with these shafts, if you are dead set on these shafts. thats the work you gotta put in! Good luck OP!

 

 

Im going to leave this here, (5:51) Starting vs  (Compare his swing tempo to 17:20 his competition swing),  We all know and seen how violent Jamie's swing is,  But to swing the ultra flexy shaft and likely a lot lighter shaft, he has to change his tempo completely to give it time to load properly as well as sync the swing to the club.   I know for sure I suck and NO way can I evolve my natural tendencies to manipulate my swing to match a club.  But if you have the talent to do so! Go for it!  
 

 

[hoganben]

On 9/15/2020 at 3:24 PM, shaolingolfer said:

I switched from Modus 120 (115gish) to MMT 80 (86gish).  First I get fit with PXG and actually really enjoy the lighter graphite shaft.  When the clubs arrived, I went to Range and a few times and can't hit it at all, distance or direction.  Take the clubs to another club fitter, hit it in the bay and measure the swing weight, it is very very far off from D3 which I prefer, slapped a bunch of weight on to the head and it completely transform the clubs.  I am hitting my irons better than ever last couple months.  

 

So check your swing weight and go buy some lead tape from Amazon.

after reading this and exactice 808s comments about graphite's effects on the swing i did buy lead tape (just 40 strips) and slapped two on each of my 30 year old graphite king cobra oversize irons. I used to hit them great and then have serious over the top issues..i am guessing the autoclave shafts are in the 95g range???i also really liked how the graphite absorbed all the shock of the hit. I just hit wiffle balls in the back yard and got nice draws..i put the lead tape near the heel...cheers ps..i got up the nerve to try the lead on my irons because a few days ago i put two strips of lead on the toe of my driver(s) and it helped reduce the hook to a nice draw...70 cents vs $1000 bucks for an adjustable driver. i had noticed that Patrick Reed used lead tape even on his adjustable driver

 

 

Edited May 10, 2024 by hoganben