Reed caught improving lie again

[Dave D]

oh dear Patrick.... https://au.sports.yahoo.com/us-open-golf-2020-patrick-reed-accused-cheating-improving-lie-031652700.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS91cmw_c2E9dCZyY3Q9aiZxPSZlc3JjPXMmc291cmNlPXdlYiZjZD0mdmVkPTJhaFVLRXdpeF8tYnZrXzNyQWhYSlVSVUlIZnVzQ2ZFUUZqQUFlZ1FJQWhBQiZ1cmw9aHR0cHMlM0ElMkYlMkZhdS5zcG9ydHMueWFob28uY29tJTJGdXMtb3Blbi1nb2xmLTIwMjAtcGF0cmljay1yZWVkLWFjY3VzZWQtY2hlYXRpbmctaW1wcm92aW5nLWxpZS0wMzE2NTI3MDAuaHRtbCZ1c2c9QU92VmF3MXpKeEtIUHA3Q3JJdi1jZ0l3OGtSVg&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAALnYWguRgQiShFG2z5T62K52m8HSOeHvsW3LUerCb8s43fXqVNZe0pqEHYsADhIUO0mDzC6B0NcnjXZ94KovPlswbsMIyinsB_J4vftn79ZA6HmDJF4CymOiTm-vOfAen-Op1FpfefcDXiVaHNe5tUkbVXM8x7HvhjtLX6cjxvjt

[milesgiles]

It’s not great but I’ve also seen worse. Hard rule to police

[chigolfer1]

Here's the actual video.  The issue is, not that it doesn't make it "cheating," but, still, doesn't just about every player do a form of this?

 

 

Edited September 22, 2020 by chigolfer1

[gioguy21]

kick him off the tour Doug!

[gioguy21]

1 minute ago, chigolfer1 said:

Here's the actual video.  The issue is, not that it doesn't make it "cheating," but, still, doesn't just about every player do a form of this?

 

 

 

no. in fact, players who play by the books would actually be hard pressed to ground the club in that case in the odd chance (see: Rahm) the ball might actually move. 

 

[jt2gt]

Ever since the original Reed incident, this is something I have noticed a bunch doing -- grounding the club behind the ball to pretend they are trying to figure out which club to use, when in fact they are just improving the lie by pushing the grass behind the ball down.  I've seen it on LPGA telecast, PGA and Korn Ferry.  Thinking to my own play, I never do this until I set up to actually hit the shot.  But the pros have found an end around and constantly push down the grass behind the ball pretending to be thinking about their setup.

[Emmett]

On one hole, he had to chip over a bunker with tall rough between bunker and green. He and caddie both trampled grass down while discussing where to land ball.  Certainly could have been unintentional but with his reputation it certainly looked suspicious because there was no reason they had to stand in exact line. 

[widow-maker]

If the ball didn't move then what he did wasn't cheating.  You're allowed to set your club in the grass behind the ball.  This wasn't so egregious that he improved his lie.  He set the club down a couple of times and that's within the rules. 

[physasst]

Nice...not surprised...

 

M

[the bishop]

5 minutes ago, jt2gt said:

Ever since the original Reed incident, this is something I have noticed a bunch doing -- grounding the club behind the ball to pretend they are trying to figure out which club to use, when in fact they are just improving the lie by pushing the grass behind the ball down.  I've seen it on LPGA telecast, PGA and Korn Ferry.  Thinking to my own play, I never do this until I set up to actually hit the shot.  But the pros have found an end around and constantly push down the grass behind the ball pretending to be thinking about their setup.

What he did in that video is something I've see countless tour pros do over the years.  Doesn't necessarily make it right but seems to be one of those accepted practices on Tour.  And if it came down to someone challenging that the old "intent" interpretation would come into play.  It almost seems to me that Reed has extrapolated that out to be if that's ok then I'm just gonna excavate this sand mound from behind my ball type of thing - and that's something that really nobody else does.  That I'm aware of anyway.

[Emmett]

7 minutes ago, widow-maker said:

If the ball didn't move then what he did wasn't cheating.  You're allowed to set your club in the grass behind the ball.  This wasn't so egregious that he improved his lie.  He set the club down a couple of times and that's within the rules. 

The ball doesn’t have to move for your lie to be improved. And how many times do you need to set the club down?

[davep043]

It doesn't appear to me that he's pressing the club down, from the close-up view it looks pretty gentle.  And its not like he was setting a 3-wood down to pave a runway, he was using the club he eventually used to hit the shot.  How many times is he allowed to set the club down?  In the close-up, he set it down once, lifted it, and set it down gently again, perhaps a little closer to the ball.  Then he walked away, apparently to evaluate trajectory and line, went back, set the club down again in the same spot, and hit the shot.  If this had been Tiger or Phil or Jordan, nobody would have looked twice at it.

[Hawkeye77]

Probably should start with the rule which says you are allowed to do the following:

 

8.1.b . . . . . . . . . . 

• Ground your club lightly right in front of or right behind your ball (but you cannot do this in a bunker)

 

I don't like the look of what he did, but boy we could go round and round with the wording in the rule and what is shown in that video. Not sure he'd have been penalized based on the above.

 

 

 

Edited September 22, 2020 by Hawkeye77

[chigolfer1]

23 minutes ago, jt2gt said:

Ever since the original Reed incident, this is something I have noticed a bunch doing -- grounding the club behind the ball to pretend they are trying to figure out which club to use, when in fact they are just improving the lie by pushing the grass behind the ball down.  I've seen it on LPGA telecast, PGA and Korn Ferry.  Thinking to my own play, I never do this until I set up to actually hit the shot.  But the pros have found an end around and constantly push down the grass behind the ball pretending to be thinking about their setup.

 

Yeah, that's all I was saying.  Believe me, I have no great desire to be defending Reed in any way.

[bladehunter]

Good grief people.  We’ve covered this 300 times.  No rule against grounding your club in the rough.  Every player who’s ever played has done this.  You can step on the grass behind the ball if you want to risk the ball moving.  You just can’t take the grass out. As in break it.     Examples - are Seve and Gary player as exhibit 1a and 1b.  

[Hawkeye77]

Maybe it's dangerous to say, but looking at that and reading the rule has me thinking I'm not using the rules to my advantage in certain situations, but I'm too lazy to look up the implications of the ball moving under the new rules.

[Sean2]

5 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Good grief people.  We’ve covered this 300 times.  No rule against grounding your club in the rough.  Every player who’s ever played has done this.  You can step on the grass behind the ball if you want to risk the ball moving.  You just can’t take the grass out. As in break it.     Examples - are Seve and Gary player as exhibit 1a and 1b.  

I have seen other pro golfers do the same thing, and didn't think much of it. Are we now supposed to hover the club on every shot? lol

[davep043]

Just now, bladehunter said:

Good grief people.  We’ve covered this 300 times.  No rule against grounding your club in the rough.  Every player who’s ever played has done this.  You can step on the grass behind the ball if you want to risk the ball moving.  You just can’t take the grass out. As in break it.     Examples - are Seve and Gary player as exhibit 1a and 1b.  

Blade, you really cannot step on (move or bend) the grass behind the ball.  From 8.1a:

"Except in the limited ways allowed in Rules 8.1b, c and d, a player must not take any of these actions if they improve the conditions affecting the stroke:

(1) Move, bend or break any:

Growing or attached natural object,"

 

One of the exceptions noted is that the player may ground his club lightly right in front of or behind the ball, as @Hawkeye77 says.  

2 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Maybe it's dangerous to say, but looking at that and reading the rule has me thinking I'm not using the rules to my advantage in certain situations, but I'm too lazy to look up the implications of the ball moving under the new rules.

If your actions cause the ball to move other than when on the putting green, you're penalized, with a few minor exceptions such as during a search.

[Kilo1545]

Just to save you the trouble...I already posted this in another thread and the consensus was that it's totally cool because decades ago, Gary Player and/or Seve would start with a 3-wood to lay down the grass, then change his mind and hit an 8-iron.

 

 

 

[bladehunter]

1 minute ago, Sean2 said:

I have seen other pro golfers do the same thing, and didn't think much of it. Are we now supposed to hover the club on every shot? lol

It’s just Reed hate  syndrome.  Once people lock on to gate a guy it’s all about the gotcha.     
 

now I don’t mind it being questioned.  But gracious.  Suppose he chose to putt that.  Do you think he’d need to hover putter too ?  Come on.   If tiger does this.  Nobody would mention it is my point.  And I’m a tiger fan too. 

[Dr. Block]

Anything can look a little suspect when the camera cuts in for a suspiciously well timed extreme close-up. 

[Hawkeye77]

2 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Blade, you really cannot step on (move or bend) the grass behind the ball.  From 8.1a:

"Except in the limited ways allowed in Rules 8.1b, c and d, a player must not take any of these actions if they improve the conditions affecting the stroke:

(1) Move, bend or break any:

Growing or attached natural object,"

 

One of the exceptions noted is that the player may ground his club lightly right in front of or behind the ball, as @Hawkeye77 says.  

If your actions cause the ball to move other than when on the putting green, you're penalized, with a few minor exceptions such as during a search.

 

Thanks!  I will continue to hover!

[Mr. Grumpy]

LoL, Yahoo Sport,,, enough said... Other headlines include:

Uproar over 'disgusting' response to Indigenous netball star's snub

'Disgusted': Rafa Nadal dragged into ugly French Open virus drama

'Oh my God': Tennis world rocked by 'devastating' moment

 

[bladehunter]

5 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Blade, you really cannot step on (move or bend) the grass behind the ball.  From 8.1a:

"Except in the limited ways allowed in Rules 8.1b, c and d, a player must not take any of these actions if they improve the conditions affecting the stroke:

(1) Move, bend or break any:

Growing or attached natural object,"

 

One of the exceptions noted is that the player may ground his club lightly right in front of or behind the ball, as @Hawkeye77 says.  

If your actions cause the ball to move other than when on the putting green, you're penalized, with a few minor exceptions such as during a search.

Right.  IF blatantly close  then yes.  But there’s no line of start stop that says where you can walk either.  By the letter of the law that means for a sweeper he can’t step within 18 inches of the ball as any rough that high may be in contact with the club before the ball.  But nobody expects that to be called.   But it could be if instant replay in golf was a thing.  

Edited September 22, 2020 by bladehunter

[8602081]

8 minutes ago, Sean2 said:

I have seen other pro golfers do the same thing, and didn't think much of it. Are we now supposed to hover the club on every shot? lol

 

I agree, I've seen others do something similar... But never this blatant..    

[Medson]

I definitely saw someone else did this at last week's U.S. Open. I thought it was interesting and didn't give any additional thought. 

 

Based on the comments above me, it seems this is not breaking any rules and many people are doing this. 

[davep043]

Just now, 8602081 said:

 

I agree, I've seen others do something similar... But never this blatant..    

He blatantly grounded his club lightly right behind the ball, I agree completely.  As he is specifically allowed to do.  As every single player in the field does every time they face a similar shot.

[Emmett]

6 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

Thanks!  I will continue to hover!

Would certainly like to hear why Blade thinks it is okay to step on the grass behind the ball.  Wow, no respect for the rules. 

[tiderider]

 

[widow-maker]

44 minutes ago, Emmett said:

The ball doesn’t have to move for your lie to be improved. And how many times do you need to set the club down?

He can set the club down behind the ball.  Multiple times as long as he doesn't move the ball.  John Rahm got penalized for doing the exact same thing at the Memorial, I think it was, but that was because the ball moved.  He wasn't penalized for setting the club behind the ball.  What Reed did definitely falls in the category of setting the club down lightly.  There are plenty of tour pros who do it exactly the same way.  If they want to change the rule, then change it and make them hover the club.  But it's really no different than soling the club behind the ball in the fairway.  You're allowed to sole your club.