Reed caught improving lie again

[gioguy21]

5 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Except you exaggerate what he did to suit your argument. 

 

he exaggerated it enough himself. smh. and clearly it's not JUST my argument...considering there are many who agree it was not within the integrity or definition of grounding ones club. 

Edited September 22, 2020 by gioguy21

[woodriff]

That doesn’t look quite like laying the club down lightly. It does look like a press down by the looks of the video. In his case I think this one is right on the line. 

[NevinW]

It isn’t a penalty.

[RichieHunt]

Personally, I don't see a rules violation.  

 

 

 

 

RH

[Hawkeye77]

23 minutes ago, gioguy21 said:

 

he exaggerated it enough himself. smh. and clearly it's not JUST my argument...considering there are many who agree it was not within the integrity or definition of grounding ones club. 

As long as there are “many”, lol. 
 

Your stretching the facts doesn’t give you any credibility, claiming others agree with you is beside the point. 

[gioguy21]

Just now, Hawkeye77 said:

As long as there are “many”, lol. 
 

Your stretching the facts doesn’t give you any credibility, claiming others agree with you is beside the point. 

i give no .... about whether or not you find me credible. people can watch the video and make their own mind. claiming others agree with me is not beside the point -- if the overall view is that what he did is against the integrity of the rule, how does that not support the argument? 

thanks for being you - feel free to add to the discussion if you'd like. 

[Hawkeye77]

Just now, gioguy21 said:

i give no .... about whether or not you find me credible. people can watch the video and make their own mind. claiming others agree with me is not beside the point -- if the overall view is that what he did is against the integrity of the rule, how does that not support the argument? 

thanks for being you - feel free to add to the discussion if you'd like. 

I did, by providing the rule. You have repeatedly mischaracterized Reed’s actions to claim a violation. 

[gioguy21]

Just now, Hawkeye77 said:

I did, by providing the rule. You have repeatedly mischaracterized Reed’s actions to claim a violation. 

 

you gave the rule however i gave you reasonable argument to say that his actions went beyond the intent of the rule. 

thanks webster -- but you missed what i was arguing in the first place. 

[Hawkeye77]

Moving on .....

[gioguy21]

1 minute ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Moving on .....

yes, shall we

[EmperorPenguin]

The crowd will never let it go, and after a few drinks some guys will make it very clear to him.

 

 

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, Kilo1545 said:

That's a very fair point and I appreciate you clarifying.  For me, I'll listen to a debate on Rule 8 all day.  The rules are interesting.  I'm just not a fan of the relativism argument, i.e.: "everybody cheats/does it, so it's okay."  That's the argument I thought you were making (here and the other time the topic came up), but you've clarified that nicely.  Thanks.

 

As for Rule 8.1, the lie is discussed as part of the subtext.  The title of the actual rule is "Player’s Actions That Improve Conditions Affecting the Stroke".  The lie of the ball is one of, but not the only, condition affecting the stroke.  That makes it clear to me that even if you're not changing the lie, if you're doing something that makes it easier for you to put a stroke on the ball, it's a no-go.

 

Agree it's subjective whether or not a player is "grounding their club lightly behind the ball" or "pressing the club on the ground."  But if they didn't care about smashing the grass behind the ball, then why would they have ever added the part about not being allowed to "press the club on the ground?"  There'd be no reason for that specific part of the rule.

No worries. I knew I wasn’t conveying my thoughts clearly. Which is often the case with me. 
 

[bladehunter]

3 hours ago, Emmett said:

Would certainly like to hear why Blade thinks it is okay to step on the grass behind the ball.  Wow, no respect for the rules. 

I didn’t say it was ok.  I said you could do it. Say you’re a guy who likes grey areas.  Say Phil.  You’re walking up the rough and you walk toward where you think your ball is.  You A. Step on it , or B. Step behind it.   Neither is a penalty.  But both cAn improve your lie.  
 

im not advocating for doing that. im saying  the rules allow it.  If you’re the guy who can do that.  I’m not.  But the game has always been full of guys who will.  And I think it’s personal preference since the rules allow it.  Some guys don’t seem to suffer from the karma of bending rules. I’m certain I would. So I won’t.  But at that same time I don’t feel the need to demonize the guy who will.  Write a better rule if you don’t want anyone to ground a club.  Or step on a ball. Or step behind a ball etc.  the current rule doesn’t eliminate it.  
 

it boils down to this old saying.  “ locks are for honest folks to stay honest. “.  Thieves can get in no matter how many locks you have.   This is the same thing.  Reed isn’t a thief.  The rule isn’t enough lock to keep  anyone honest.   If not grounding the club is the goal.  
 

I simply have issue with folks demonizing new players for something that pillars of the game have done on tape from a distance because we now have a gotcha society with slow mo cameras.  

[Pepperturbo]

I see an awfully lot of tour players patting down grass behind the ball using the club head.   Camera always catches it too.  Its' not improving the lie if the ball doesn't move.  Another common example, people step down on turf behind the ball in the fairway and on the tee box.

[Hawkeye77]

2 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

  Its' not improving the lie if the ball doesn't move.  

 

I'm not sure the rules go that far.

[Emmett]

4 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

I see an awfully lot of tour players patting down grass behind the ball using the club head.   Camera always catches it too.  Its' not improving the lie if the ball doesn't move.  Another common example, people step down on turf behind the ball in the fairway and on the tee box.

Legal on tee box only. 

[Forged4ever]

5 hours ago, jt2gt said:

Ever since the original Reed incident, this is something I have noticed a bunch doing -- grounding the club behind the ball to pretend they are trying to figure out which club to use, when in fact they are just improving the lie by pushing the grass behind the ball down.  I've seen it on LPGA telecast, PGA and Korn Ferry.  Thinking to my own play, I never do this until I set up to actually hit the shot.  But the pros have found an end around and constantly push down the grass behind the ball pretending to be thinking about their setup.

This is nothing new as one of Sam's closest friends on Tour did it 65-70 years ago, got away with it and it was not just in Tourneys as I Played with him twice and noticed him doin it in a sh*ts & giggles round??‍♂️

 

And no, it was not Lloyd Mangrum

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever⛳️

RP

 

Edited September 22, 2020 by Forged4ever

[Hawkeye77]

11 minutes ago, Forged4ever said:

This is nothing new as one of Sam's closest friends on Tour did it 65-70 years ago, got away with it and it was not just in Tourneys as I Played with him twice and noticed him doin it in a sh*ts & giggles round??‍♂️

 

And no, it was not Lloyd Mangrum

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever⛳️

RP

 

 

If it had been I wouldn't mess with Mangrum!

 

I do have a tattered copy of his How To Break 90 At Golf - kind of neat.

 

[miamistomp]

Mr Icicle  -took 12 heart attacks to kill him !

[ThinkingPlus]

So what definition of "caught" are we using?  Usually getting caught implies some kind of penalty.  As far as I know he did not receive a penalty at one of the USGA's premier events so... .  Just sayin.

[davep043]

13 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

So what definition of "caught" are we using?  Usually getting caught implies some kind of penalty.  As far as I know he did not receive a penalty at one of the USGA's premier events so... .  Just sayin.

And from what we've been told, there are people watching the video feeds, watching for infractions.  

[davep043]

1 hour ago, gioguy21 said:

i give no .... about whether or not you find me credible. people can watch the video and make their own mind. claiming others agree with me is not beside the point -- if the overall view is that what he did is against the integrity of the rule, how does that not support the argument? 

I'm not sure this is really up for popular vote.  Many of the folks on your side of the issue seem to be simply joining in the anti-Reed lynch mob, its hard to take their opinions seriously.  You, on the other hand, have made the effort to actually discuss the rule itself and why you believe it is a violation, so I take your opinions much more seriously.  I still disagree, but that's life.

Edited September 22, 2020 by davep043

[ThinkingPlus]

4 minutes ago, davep043 said:

And from what we've been told, there are people watching the video feeds, watching for infractions.  

Over and over and over again in slow motion if necessary.

[Forged4ever]

Cheers?

RP

[Golf10]

Bryson did that a ton also.  A penalty?  Hmmm

[Potatohead]

Every golfer ever does this to the point it is accepted practice. People are grasping for straws here. 

Edited September 22, 2020 by Potatohead

[Soloman1]

Reed probably does that so the slow motion cameras can't measure the space between grooves. Here, I'll add a question mark to make it more tabloidesque??

 

I think Patrick and the wife have some, uh, issues, but this was not against the rules. He's an easy target for people who obviously have no lives. ?

[bladehunter]

3 hours ago, Emmett said:

8.1b/1 – Meaning of “Ground the Club Lightly”

Rule 8.1b allows a player to ground the club lightly directly in front of or behind the ball, even if that improves his or her lie or area of intended swing.

“Ground the club lightly” means allowing the weight of the club to be supported by the grass, soil, sand or other material on or above the ground surface.

But the player gets the penalty under Rule 8.1a if he or she improves the lie or area of intended swing by pressing the club down more than lightly.

See Rule 12.2b(1) (When Touching Sand Results in Penalty) for when a player gets a penalty for touching sand in a bunker.

Exactly.  

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

5 hours ago, davep043 said:

I'm not sure this is really up for popular vote.  Many of the folks on your side of the issue seem to be simply joining in the anti-Reed lynch mob, its hard to take their opinions seriously.  You, on the other hand, have made the effort to actually discuss the rule itself and why you believe it is a violation, so I take your opinions much more seriously.  I still disagree, but that's life.

Somehow, it would not be surprising to discover just who that person who yelled “cheater” that made Patrick Reed jump as he missed his putt was posting on this site. Hahaha!

[Shilgy]

11 hours ago, milesgiles said:

It’s not great but I’ve also seen worse. Hard rule to police

Rule 8.1b allows a player to ground the club lightly directly in front of or behind the ball, even if that improves his or her lie or area of intended swing.

Ground the club lightly” means allowing the weight of the club to be supported by the grass, soil, sand or other material on or above the ground surface.

 

This “incident would be marginal at best. If most players did it it would be no big deal. With Reed the pitchforks come out.

 

edited to add...I posted after reading just a few posts. I see the point has already been made.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Shilgy