WHS - confused by England Golf Course Handicap calculation

[ParHunter]

Hi 

 

I am a bit confused by the material I have seen from England Golf on the Course Handicap calculations.

According to them it is:

Course Handicap = Handicap Index x (slope/113).

 

According to the USGA it is however:

Course Handicap = Handicap index x (slope/113) + Course Rating - Par

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/world-handicap-system/world-handicap-system-usga-golf-faqs/faqs---calculate-course-handicap-and-playing-handicap.html

 

 

This is the course handicap table for my club from England Golf:

 

 

When you compare that to what the USGA creates for the same setting (Course Rating, Par and slope) you get

https://www.usga.org/course-handicap-calculator.html

 

So a +5 handicap would play off +7  according to the USGA and of +6 according to England Golf.

 

And a 23.3 handicap would play off 25 according to USGA and 27 according to England Golf.

 

Wasn't this supposed to be a 'World' handicap system? 

 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2020 by ParHunter

[ThinkingPlus]

I believe England chose not to include the (CR - Par) calc as part of the base course handicap.  They keep it part of the "playing from different tees" adjustment.  The USGA just lumped it all together primarily because many were failing to adjust for tee differentials during play.  Implementation of the (CR - Par) calc as part of the base course handicap was one of the optional choices within the WHS to allow for regional golf culture differences.

[Colin L]

That's right.  CR- Par is not included in the calculation of 18 hole Course Handicaps in CONGU countries (England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales).  It is, however, included in 9 hole Course Handicaps.

 

We have to be careful with online calculators!

Edited October 23, 2020 by Colin L

[Krt22]

10 minutes ago, Colin L said:

That's right.  CR- Par is not included in the calculation of 18 hole Course Handicaps in CONGU countries (England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales).  It is, however, included in 9 hole Course Handicaps.

 

We have to be careful with online calculators!

What in tarnation, how does that make any sense 

[ParHunter]

1 hour ago, ThinkingPlus said:

I believe England chose not to include the (CR - Par) calc as part of the base course handicap.  They keep it part of the "playing from different tees" adjustment.  The USGA just lumped it all together primarily because many were failing to adjust for tee differentials during play.  Implementation of the (CR - Par) calc as part of the base course handicap was one of the optional choices within the WHS to allow for regional golf culture differences.

So how does the playing from different tees

work then? We have different slope ratings for the different tee boxes. 
 

so much for creating a handicap system that works everywhere. 
If there would be an identical course in the US and in the UK I would be playing off a different handicap depending on whether I play the course in the US or in the UK. 
How silly is that?

[Mr. Bean]

43 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

What in tarnation, how does that make any sense 

It does not. Some organizations just want to have their way.

[Krt22]

19 minutes ago, ParHunter said:

So how does the playing from different tees

work then? We have different slope ratings for the different tee boxes. 
 

so much for creating a handicap system that works everywhere. 
If there would be an identical course in the US and in the UK I would be playing off a different handicap depending on whether I play the course in the US or in the UK. 
How silly is that?

The same way it always has, you add/subtract strokes based on the different CRs (and account for the slope). Just some people never did this or it caused lots of folks to gripe when done correctly, so baking it into the CH simplified the process.  

[nsxguy]

31 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

The same way it always has, you add/subtract strokes based on the different CRs (and account for the slope). Just some people never did this or it caused lots of folks to gripe when done correctly, so baking it into the CH simplified the process.  

 

Did the old way account for slope ?

 

I thought one just took the difference in CR and rounded, not do the CH from each tee set and subtract the difference as you seem to be suggesting.

 

i.e. 71.3-67.5 would be 3.8 rounded to 4 but 71.3-67.9 would be 3.4 rounded to 3.

 

Not so ?

 

Wonder how the U.K. handles it ?

[ThinkingPlus]

55 minutes ago, ParHunter said:

So how does the playing from different tees

work then? We have different slope ratings for the different tee boxes. 
 

so much for creating a handicap system that works everywhere. 
If there would be an identical course in the US and in the UK I would be playing off a different handicap depending on whether I play the course in the US or in the UK. 
How silly is that?

As @Krt22 mentioned the different tee process remains the same.  Answering the why question is different golf cultures have different needs.  The US needed embedded (CR - Par) because of negligence or lack of handicapping knowledge.  CONGU did not seem to believe that change needed to be embedded in the base course handicap.  Sort of a less change is better approach.  The handicap change between locations doesn't impact the specific competitions because of self consistency.

[nsxguy]

58 minutes ago, ParHunter said:

So how does the playing from different tees

work then? We have different slope ratings for the different tee boxes. 
 

so much for creating a handicap system that works everywhere. 
If there would be an identical course in the US and in the UK I would be playing off a different handicap depending on whether I play the course in the US or in the UK. 
How silly is that?

 

The WHS handicap index calc still works the same everywhere. It's just the difference in tee sets that are handled a bit differently.

 

Even though you'd be playing off a slightly different number in the U.K. so would everybody else - so the difference in strokes given or gotten is still the same. As is the handicap calculation.

 

e.g. You're a 10 Handicap Index and your buddy's a 14.

 

You play the men's tees where PAR is 72 and the course rating is 70. So the course rating at 70 and slope is near 113. So you'd get 8 strokes as your Course Handicap of 10 would be reduced by the CR-PAR. Same with your buddy. He'd get 12. But the difference between you 2 is still 4.

 

In the UK, on the "same" course, you'd be 10 and your buddy would be 14. Same 4 shots difference.

 

IF in the UK the competition was from different tee sets they'd add or subtract from your CH based on the difference between multiple tee sets - just as we used to do (sometimes ) here in the U.S. before the WHS.

[Krt22]

26 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Did the old way account for slope ?

 

I thought one just took the difference in CR and rounded, not do the CH from each tee set and subtract the difference as you seem to be suggesting.

 

i.e. 71.3-67.5 would be 3.8 rounded to 4 but 71.3-67.9 would be 3.4 rounded to 3.

 

Not so ?

 

Wonder how the U.K. handles it ?

Yes, calculating CH for the different tees always included the slope, but many folks in the past would only account for the slope difference and neglect to add or subtract strokes based on the delta of CRs. 

 

But you are right, the new system just directly calculates the CH based on the CR and slope, so there might be rounding anomalies.

[North Butte]

The new system works the same everywhere. Except for the stuff that is different everywhere. Which is 'most everything.

[ParHunter]

I still don't understand how this is supposed to work.

Currently under the old rules we have to get 37 Stableford points to play to our handicap as the course is rates at 71 while it is a par 72 course.

I am playing of 11, so as we have to shoot one shot better than normal net par it is like playing of a 10 handicap.

But with the new handicap system I suddenly have a playing handicap of 12 on this course. So while before I had to shoot an 82 to play to my handicap (71+11), what would I have to shoot now? 

 

I understand that my handicap will probably change on November 2 when the system starts here. So if an 11 handicap suddenly gets one stroke more here would that mean that a 11 handicap at that course is more likely a 10 handicap in the new system?

 

Does the US system use the handicap allowance as well? I've seen here that we can only use 95% of the course handicap for a normal round.

[Augster]

Here’s the old USGA system, which seems to be what you folks are adopting. 
 

CH=Index*slope/113. 
 

This works great if everyone is playing the same tees.

 

Here is the old system when people played different tees:

 
Tee 1 with the higher CR

CH=index*slope/113

 

Tee 2 with the lower CR

CH=index*slope/113

 

Then all players from tee 2 take (CR Tee1 - CR Tee2) and subtract it from

their CH. 

 

So the Tee 2 players formula is:

CH=(index*slope/113) MINUS (CR Tee1 - CR Tee2)

 

That’s a lot of extra BS calculating. 
 

The new WHS system with CR-par built in makes everything so easy. Everyone just takes their CH and subtracts and that’s how many shots you give or get. 
 

Low net is easy. If your net is right around par, you certainly played a keeper round. 
 

Stableford is so easy. You should get 36 points if you play to your CH. 
 

The WHS with the CR-par calculation added in has been absolutely wonderful this year. It has made playing from different tees so easy that we’ve allowed guys to play from whatever tee they want in our casual games. The formulas will figure out what is fair. 
 

I think England wanted to take a step back to the US system for a year just to get everyone used to 8/20 and slope. Just so they could see what a horrible time it is to play from different tees. THEN next year, they’ll introduce CR-par and once the masses use it, they’ll be so happy they’ll say, “Why didn’t we do this all along?” You don’t know what you have until you have a frame of reference. 
 

The WHS is the best system we’ve used in America to date. It’s simple to use and is awesome. 
 

 

Edited October 23, 2020 by Augster

[Colin L]

There is no problem at all in playing from different tees and I've no idea why doing so could give anyone a "horrible time".    We've been doing it in CONGU countries (not just England!) for a long time.   We don't need to introduce CR-Par in order to run mixed tee competitions.  We already manage them that way and will be continuing to do so in the WHS system.   

 

The only difference between us is that we apply CR-Par only when we need to, when, that is, we are running a mixed tee competition. You guys apply it all the time so that on the occasion  when  you do run a mixed tee competition it has already been done. 

 

At the moment, I would rather explain to members why those playing off our red tees get 2 strokes more than those playing off our blue tees than explain why everyone  in a single tee competition is getting 2 strokes for no reason at all. 

 

[DaveLeeNC]

IMHO, here in the US the CR-Par change was pretty important given how ESC now works (net double max). The level of comprehension of the system among US golfers is low on average, and the wrong NDB number would be used quite often, I think. Or maybe the 'error' is not considered big enough to matter. But it sure is nice to have Stableford scores mean the same thing no matter which tees you played. Same statement for your net score. 

 

For the same reason mixed tee competitions here in the US created a ton of arguments about "why don't I get my strokes" or "why does Joe get more than he should". I can imagine that all this is less of an issue in other places. 

 

dave

Edited October 23, 2020 by DaveLeeNC

[nsxguy]

50 minutes ago, Colin L said:

There is no problem at all in playing from different tees and I've no idea why doing so could give anyone a "horrible time".    We've been doing it in CONGU countries (not just England!) for a long time.   We don't need to introduce CR-Par in order to run mixed tee competitions.  We already manage them that way and will be continuing to do so in the WHS system.   

 

The only difference between us is that we apply CR-Par only when we need to, when, that is, we are running a mixed tee competition. You guys apply it all the time so that on the occasion  when  you do run a mixed tee competition it has already been done. 

 

At the moment, I would rather explain to members why those playing off our red tees get 2 strokes more than those playing off our blue tees than explain why everyone  in a single tee competition is getting 2 strokes for no reason at all. 

 

 

Easy explanation. You've already said it here. "Everyone's getting the same adjustment so no effect for net stroke or match play." ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[North Butte]

The groups I play with used to do their own ad hoc adjustments for the different tees that various people play. They never did get it right. And then there was the fact that from any of the (usual) tee choices, the course rating was less than par. So the net result was when we form random teams, the winning team was almost always net better than par. 

 

Now we play off the course handicap from the GHIN app (which has CR-Par built in) and everyone is gobsmacked that often a three-ball or four-ball combined to win money with net worse than par. Sometimes we'll play three or four days in a row without a single team being net better than part for 18 holes and everyone acts like that's crazy.

 

Of course it's just that we're now playing off our real handicaps rather than benefitting from a stroke or two per man of CR-Par plus the old "system" of not adjusting handicaps enough for the guys playing the up tees. Naturally you're not going to frequently have three or four guys combining to shoot six or eight strokes better than par (which was not all that unusual previously).

 

To my mind, the entire rationale for the "World" part of the WHS was bogus. It's nothing of the kind. But I can't complain about the app now giving us actual playing handicaps that relate to various tees and to various CR-Par situations in a realistic way. That's the one clear "win" from the change in my own little corner of the golf world. 

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, ParHunter said:

I still don't understand how this is supposed to work.

Currently under the old rules we have to get 37 Stableford points to play to our handicap as the course is rates at 71 while it is a par 72 course.

I am playing of 11, so as we have to shoot one shot better than normal net par it is like playing of a 10 handicap.

But with the new handicap system I suddenly have a playing handicap of 12 on this course. So while before I had to shoot an 82 to play to my handicap (71+11), what would I have to shoot now? 

 

I understand that my handicap will probably change on November 2 when the system starts here. So if an 11 handicap suddenly gets one stroke more here would that mean that a 11 handicap at that course is more likely a 10 handicap in the new system?

 

Does the US system use the handicap allowance as well? I've seen here that we can only use 95% of the course handicap for a normal round.

 

Last things first. Yes, the U.S. does use handicap allowances.

 

CONGU has handicap indexes to 1 decimal point, no ? Like 10.4 ? I would expect that same index would be your starting point on Nov 2 (Is that right @colin ?)

 

It's "slope" that's most new to you.

 

See Augster's calc. Your Course Handicap is your INDEX times the slope divided by 113

 

So your course rating is 71. Par (72) is irrelevant for you. So say the slope from the tees you're playing is 124.

 

10.4 * 124 / 113 = 11.4. That rounds to 11.

 

So for a net comp or Stableford played from "that" SINGLE set of tees, you would get 11.

 

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, Colin L said:

There is no problem at all in playing from different tees and I've no idea why doing so could give anyone a "horrible time".    We've been doing it in CONGU countries (not just England!) for a long time.   We don't need to introduce CR-Par in order to run mixed tee competitions.  We already manage them that way and will be continuing to do so in the WHS system.   

 

The only difference between us is that we apply CR-Par only when we need to, when, that is, we are running a mixed tee competition. You guys apply it all the time so that on the occasion  when  you do run a mixed tee competition it has already been done. 

 

At the moment, I would rather explain to members why those playing off our red tees get 2 strokes more than those playing off our blue tees than explain why everyone  in a single tee competition is getting 2 strokes for no reason at all. 

 

Do I understand it correctly when I say that playing from different tees in same gender events is rare in the UK?

Obviously, mixed events do play from different tees.

Edited October 24, 2020 by rogolf

[Augster]

4 hours ago, Colin L said:

There is no problem at all in playing from different tees and I've no idea why doing so could give anyone a "horrible time".    We've been doing it in CONGU countries (not just England!) for a long time.   We don't need to introduce CR-Par in order to run mixed tee competitions.  We already manage them that way and will be continuing to do so in the WHS system.   

 

The only difference between us is that we apply CR-Par only when we need to, when, that is, we are running a mixed tee competition. You guys apply it all the time so that on the occasion  when  you do run a mixed tee competition it has already been done. 

 

At the moment, I would rather explain to members why those playing off our red tees get 2 strokes more than those playing off our blue tees than explain why everyone  in a single tee competition is getting 2 strokes for no reason at all. 

 

As explained in the WHS literature, using CR-par full time makes net par meaningful. Our course rating from the white tees is 69.1, so basically, 2 under par. (71). Though, last year, if you shot a 69 or 68 net you were instantly called a sandbagger etc even though you only played to your cap. This year, with CR-par, if you shoot net par nobody gets all that worked up about it like they did in previous years. Shooting your cap is ok. (Net par). Shooting your cap with a net 2-under, isn’t. 

 

ALSO, it adds and subtracts strokes from scratch players from all sets of tees. 
 

It made ZERO sense that my friend Dave (a +0.1)was a 0 cap from the blue tees while I was a 5 (4.3), and also a 0 from the gold tees where I’m a 4. When we both play the same tees, I need nearly the same amount of shots regardless of tees. 
 

This year, with CR-par added in, I still get 5 shots from the blues, but I also get 5 shots from the golds. 
 

 

[ParHunter]

I’ve never played a mixed tee competition for one gender. We have Mixed comps where the men play off the white tees (back tees) and the ladies from the red tees but you would not see some men play off white and others off yellow. 
 

the red tees weren’t even rated for men, only the women. 

[Newby]

8 hours ago, Colin L said:

 

At the moment, I would rather explain to members why those playing off our red tees get 2 strokes more than those playing off our blue tees than explain why everyone  in a single tee competition is getting 2 strokes for no reason at all. 

 

👍

[Newby]

7 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

CONGU has handicap indexes to 1 decimal point, no ? Like 10.4 ? I would expect that same index would be your starting point on Nov 2 (Is that right @colin ?)

 

 

Not quite.

Out current 'Exact Handicap' is as you say to 1 decimal. Our (Course) Handicap is simply the rounded value and is used on all or any course. Again, as you say, there is no slope adjustment.

 

On Nov 1st All our scores back to Jan 2018 are going to be run through a transition process that will calculate WHS Handicap Indices using the USGA Course Ratings (known as the Standard Scratch Score here) and Slope, adjusted by our version of the PCC (CSS - Competition Scratch Score).

[Newby]

7 hours ago, rogolf said:

Do I understand it correctly when I say that playing from different tees in same gender events is rare in the UK?

 

Yes, very.

 

re ParHunter's comment. All England's courses have been re-rated during the last couple of years. The opportunity was give to clubs to rate all or any tees for both genders but is seems the majority of clubs didn't take it up.

Edited October 24, 2020 by Newby

[Mr. Bean]

9 hours ago, Colin L said:

At the moment, I would rather explain to members why those playing off our red tees get 2 strokes more than those playing off our blue tees than explain why everyone  in a single tee competition is getting 2 strokes for no reason at all. 

 

 

But isn't the reason that the handicap strokes are correctly allocated at all times regardless of the course being played or tee being used?

[Mr. Bean]

4 hours ago, ParHunter said:

1)I’ve never played a mixed tee competition for one gender. We have Mixed comps where the men play off the white tees (back tees) and the ladies from the red tees but you would not see some men play off white and others off yellow. 
 

2)the red tees weren’t even rated for men, only the women. 

 

1) Same here. Men always play from the same tee

 

2) We have all the tees rated for men but the longest one(s) not for women.

 

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

But isn't the reason that the handicap strokes are correctly allocated at all times regardless of the course being played or tee being used?

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean.

[Colin L]

10 hours ago, rogolf said:

Do I understand it correctly when I say that playing from different tees in same gender events is rare in the UK?

Obviously, mixed events do play from different tees.

I don 't know enough about what goes on elsewhere, but the ladies section runs quite a few competitions with a choice of 3 tees.  I introduced the option of playing from either of 2 sets of tees to our seniors but the opportunity to play the easier course has not yet  been taken up by any of those who would most benefit from it.  

 

Next season we will have all four sets of tees available for men's, women's and mixed competitions  but it remains to be seen what opportunities we create from that.   I'm hoping that we will quickly get away from the idea of men's tees and women's tees but "quickly" might be too hopeful! 

 

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

Just a general remark slightly outside the topic, but the current rating system does not support change of tees too well. I play much better net scores from the red (the foremost) or the blue (2nd foremost) tee than from the yellow (3rd foremost, men's club) tee.

 

That is simply due to the layout of my home courses. Bunkers and PA's are not a problem from the red tee and less of a problem from the blue tee. Also after a decent tee shot the shorter course allows me to approach with a wedge or a short iron instead of a mid or long iron / hybrid and that has a HUGE impact on my score, even with the smaller nr of handicap strokes received as the difference is apparently way too small.

 

If we wanted a more accurate handicap system a player's handicap should be determined per each tee and that hcp would be used only for that tee.