Drop from a lateral, find ball ahead

[TheCityGame]

This HAS to have come up before, but I couldn't find it.

 

We had a situation yesterday where we thought a ball was in a lateral hazard, guy dropped, hit a ball on green, then found his ball as he started walking to the green. 

 

In the rules, I was able to find the bit below, which indicates the ball that was played from the drop stays in play. . .

 

(2) Substituted Ball Becomes Ball in Play. When a player substitutes another ball as the ball in play (see Rule 14.4😞

• The original ball is no longer in play, even if it is at rest on the course.

• This is true even if the player:

  • Substituted another ball for the original ball when not allowed by the Rules (whether or not the player realized that he or she was substituting another ball), or

  • Replaced, dropped or placed the substituted ball (1) in a wrong place, (2) in a wrong way or (3) by using a procedure that does not apply.

 

(me again ) : What I don't know is if the "wrong place" rule ends up applying. That is, once the original ball was found, did that make the ball that was dropped become a ball played from the "wrong place"? 

 

One last thing. . .in rule 14.7, what to do when a ball is played from a wrong place, it says what to do when playing stroke play, but it doesn't have a section on what to do if it happens in match play. I assume it's loss of hole, or that player is out of the hole in a fourball, but I'm not sure. 

[Halebopp]

Easy question first, yes, it's a loss-of-hole penalty in match play.

 

This Interpretation covers your issue pretty well and also answers when the "Wrong Place" could come up, but in short, it might've played a role had the player not made a stroke at the ball before the original ball was found. The original ball was abandoned and a wrong ball the moment the player substituted it by taking relief from the Penalty Area though.

 

https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/interpretations/rule-17-interpretations#17-1d-3-2

[Sawgrass]

TCG, it's impossible to answer this question without knowing whether the player had valid Virtual Certainty that the ball was in the penalty area.  (Note that it's possible to be validly virtually certain that a ball is in a P.A. when it is actually not in the P.A.)

 

If the drop was valid, note the fact that the original ball is no longer in play:

 

c. Relief for Ball Not Found but in Penalty Area

If a player’s ball has not been found and it is known or virtually certain that the ball came to rest in a penalty area:

• The player may take penalty relief under Rule 17.1d or 17.2.

• Once the player puts another ball in play to take relief in this way:

  • The original ball is no longer in play and must not be played.

  • This is true even if it is then found on the course before the end of the three-minute search time (see Rule 6.3b).

 

[Mr. Bean]

In plain English:

- If you were less than 95% sure that the ball was in the Penalty Area the new ball was dropped and played from a wrong place. In Match Play loss of hole and in Stroke Play 2 penalty strokes (in this particular case) and the dropped ball is the ball in play.

- If you were 95% or more sure then the drop was correct and later discovery of the original ball does not count and the dropped ball remains the ball in play.

 

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by Mr. Bean
Misprint

[rogolf]

54 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

In plain English:

- If you were less than 95% sure that the ball was in the Penalty Area the new ball was dropped and played from a wrong place. In Match Play loss of hole and in Stroke Play 2 penalty strokes (in this particular case) and the dropped ball is the ball in play.

- If you were 95% or more sure then the drop was correct and later discovery of the original ball does not count and the dropped ball remains the ball in play.

 

 

Just clarifying that it is not a personal opinion on the 95% certainty.  As per the definition, "Although there is a very small degree of doubt, all reasonably available information shows that it is at least 95% likely that the event in question happened."

(my highlighting)  And, another way of expressing 95% certainty is that the decision taken will be correct 19 times out of 20.  It is a very high standard.

[jholz]

So, is "valid, virtual certainty" achieved if the player and everyone else in the group agrees:

 

1. The ball entered the hazard

2. This is the spot where the ball entered the hazard

 

Even if it turns out everyone is wrong, haven't you reached "valid, virtual certainty" if everyone is in agreement on the above two points?

[rogolf]

14 minutes ago, jholz said:

So, is "valid, virtual certainty" achieved if the player and everyone else in the group agrees:

 

1. The ball entered the hazard

2. This is the spot where the ball entered the hazard

 

Even if it turns out everyone is wrong, haven't you reached "valid, virtual certainty" if everyone is in agreement on the above two points?

Agreement by everyone does not, by itself, create virtual certainty.  All available information must be sought and evaluated.

"Could the ball be anywhere else?" is a valid question.

 

Here's another ongoing discussion on the same topic,

https://thesandtrap.com/forums/topic/106098-found-tee-shot-after-taking-a-drop/

Edited December 7, 2020 by rogolf

[Sawgrass]

11 minutes ago, jholz said:

So, is "valid, virtual certainty" achieved if the player and everyone else in the group agrees:

 

1. The ball entered the hazard

2. This is the spot where the ball entered the hazard

 

Even if it turns out everyone is wrong, haven't you reached "valid, virtual certainty" if everyone is in agreement on the above two points?

While it may seem odd, the agreement of everyone in the group is of no consequence.  It's the player's responsibility to discern this, and the player may be challenged by anyone -- thereby leaving it to the committee to decide the validity of the player's claim of VC. 

[Mr. Bean]

42 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Just clarifying that it is not a personal opinion on the 95% certainty. 

 

Oh, sorry. Apparently I should have somehow clarified that 'you' in this particular case (and in many other cases when there are more than one person playing) means 'you' in plural tense. My mistake. Apparently.

[jholz]

7 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Agreement by everyone does not, by itself, create virtual certainty.  All available information must be sought and evaluated.

"Could the ball be anywhere else?" is a valid question.

 

6 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

While it may seem odd, the agreement of everyone in the group is of no consequence.  It's the player's responsibility to discern this, and the player may be challenged by anyone -- thereby leaving it to the committee to decide the validity of the player's claim of VC. 

 

Yes, I'm assuming a situation whereby a group of players is left to determine this on their own. No committee, no rules official, just the group.

 

I'm also assuming that a preliminary search for the ball will exhaust all of the "likely possibilities" that @rogolfmentions.

 

If they diligently go through the processes, and then agree with the player that the ball is in the hazard and it crossed at this point, that seems like about as good as anyone's going to do. 

 

You drop, put the new ball in play, and move on - regardless of whether you find the original ball 30 yards up in the fairway. 

Edited December 7, 2020 by jholz

[Mr. Bean]

@TheCityGame:

While rogolf and Sawgrass are absolutely correct in what they wrote and they lean on the specific words if the Rules of Golf, you need to digest the essence of this entire scenario. While all the persons in your playing group may have an opinion on what has happened it is you who makes the decision how to proceed and it is you who bears the consequences. Meaning that ultimately there should be a some kind of consensus before proceeding, otherwise you (and in this context I mean you as a single person) may end up in trouble.

[jholz]

20 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

@TheCityGame:

While rogolf and Sawgrass are absolutely correct in what they wrote and they lean on the specific words if the Rules of Golf, you need to digest the essence of this entire scenario. While all the persons in your playing group may have an opinion on what has happened it is you who makes the decision how to proceed and it is you who bears the consequences. Meaning that ultimately there should be a some kind of consensus before proceeding, otherwise you (and in this context I mean you as a single person) may end up in trouble.

 

Yes, this is essentially what I am talking about. 

[Sawgrass]

I think it’s likely that if you are comfortable with the claim of VC, and everyone else in your group is as well, there will be no call for investigation/no investigation by the committee . . . so practically speaking, it’s resolved. 

[antip]

5 hours ago, jholz said:

So, is "valid, virtual certainty" achieved if the player and everyone else in the group agrees:

 

1. The ball entered the hazard

2. This is the spot where the ball entered the hazard

 

Even if it turns out everyone is wrong, haven't you reached "valid, virtual certainty" if everyone is in agreement on the above two points?

I'm just reading this thread for the first time. Other answers give you all the key information, this brings a different observation. KVC is about where the ball lies, not about where the ball crossed the edge of the penalty area. If you had KVC the ball was in the PA, and you took lateral relief based on your best estimate of where the ball last crossed and play the ball, all is good. If you later learn new information that the ball actually crossed somewhere else, there are no issues.

[TheCityGame]

Thanks everyone. 

 

The area is question is kind of a nightmare for KVC, but it is understood there that a ball you can't find is in the creek.

 

It's a creek a couple yards wide between two holes so it is lateral hazard for both holes. There are lots of rocks in the creek and on the edges. There is long grass and some brush along the edges. There are trees along the edges. There is a cart path near the creek. Well manicured, it is not. 

 

So, you hit a ball towards the creek and one of several things can happen. . .

1) you go over the creek and are on the other hole. 

2) you hit a tree and bounce ANYWHERE. . .including the middle of your fairway, or the other fairway. 

3) you are in the creek

4) you run down the cart path or get a kick and might be 30 yards up. 

5) you're lost in the rough anywhere near the creek. (this is quite unlikely. The rough isn't that bad.)

 

And guess what. . .you get to the next hole and get to do it all over again. 

 

GENERALLY you can really see a ball go in and quite often find it in the creek, but when you can't find the ball, everyone plays it like the ball went in. 

 

All that said, it might not sound like it's possible to be KVC in this location, but if you played it enough and saw it, I think you'd agree that 95% of balls that disappear in that region are in the hazard. IOW, you'd find a lot more balls in the rough/fairway around there if the balls weren't in the creek. The ones that hit a tree are the ones that probably harder to determine KVC. There's enough guys like me who care about these things out there and we've discussed it enough to believe we're kvc when you can't find a ball through the green.

 

[Mr. Bean]

47 minutes ago, TheCityGame said:

 

All that said, it might not sound like it's possible to be KVC in this location, but if you played it enough and saw it, I think you'd agree that 95% of balls that disappear in that region are in the hazard. 

 

 

Now, that is up to you and the rest of your group to decide but be honest with yourself and don't take too granted that KVC would be in your favor there.

 

Before 2019 it was my habit to ask myself whether that ball could reasonably be somewhere else than in the PA and I still follow that principle. Estimating a percentage is impossible so I'd rather be too harsh on myself than too gentle. After all, it is me who is responsible for the ball to be somewhere there in the first place...

[rogolf]

54 minutes ago, TheCityGame said:

Thanks everyone. 

 

The area is question is kind of a nightmare for KVC, but it is understood there that a ball you can't find is in the creek.

 

It's a creek a couple yards wide between two holes so it is lateral hazard for both holes. There are lots of rocks in the creek and on the edges. There is long grass and some brush along the edges. There are trees along the edges. There is a cart path near the creek. Well manicured, it is not. 

 

So, you hit a ball towards the creek and one of several things can happen. . .

1) you go over the creek and are on the other hole. 

2) you hit a tree and bounce ANYWHERE. . .including the middle of your fairway, or the other fairway. 

3) you are in the creek

4) you run down the cart path or get a kick and might be 30 yards up. 

5) you're lost in the rough anywhere near the creek. (this is quite unlikely. The rough isn't that bad.)

 

And guess what. . .you get to the next hole and get to do it all over again. 

 

GENERALLY you can really see a ball go in and quite often find it in the creek, but when you can't find the ball, everyone plays it like the ball went in. 

 

All that said, it might not sound like it's possible to be KVC in this location, but if you played it enough and saw it, I think you'd agree that 95% of balls that disappear in that region are in the hazard. IOW, you'd find a lot more balls in the rough/fairway around there if the balls weren't in the creek. The ones that hit a tree are the ones that probably harder to determine KVC. There's enough guys like me who care about these things out there and we've discussed it enough to believe we're kvc when you can't find a ball through the green.

 

How is the penalty area marked?  You could lessen the issues with KVC by marking it much wider such that it is less likely that a ball not found would be KVC to be in the penalty area (and play would be more likely to be within the Rules).  There are no differences in what the Rules permit/do not permit between penalty area and general area.

Edited December 8, 2020 by rogolf

[TheCityGame]

It's marked pretty tight to the hazard. Also, there's a cart path there on "my side" so it has to be marked pretty tight there. 

 

Arrows indicate direction of play. When you're playing the hole on the left (down arrow), there's not much rough there. A ball can be in the rough on the other side of the creek, so you need to cross the creek to look for it. Also, if you hit one of the trees, you don't know if the ball has bounced back 20 yards, or continued 30 more yards down. You do have a large area the ball could possibly be, but the rough on the right hole doesn't really swallow up balls. You can find them there. 

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, TheCityGame said:

Also, if you hit one of the trees, you don't know if the ball has bounced back 20 yards, or continued 30 more yards down. You do have a large area the ball could possibly be, but the rough on the right hole doesn't really swallow up balls. You can find them there. 

 

 

And yet you find 95% of the balls hit there within 3 minutes?

[rogolf]

It sounds like the penalty area on the hole going downwards is marked between the cart path and the creek?  If so, is the fairway edge of the cart path more than two club-lengths from the edge of the penalty area, and how many players drop on the cart path (which could be the correct thing to do)?

[TheCityGame]

51 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

And yet you find 95% of the balls hit there within 3 minutes?

Well, let me put it this way. . .when you find a ball over there, you generally find it pretty quickly. 

 

Of course lack of finding a ball over there isn't proof that it's in the creek, but it's not an area where balls really hide -- that's all I'm saying.  It's not leafy. It's not thick. You always give it look because sometimes you have a shot from over there if you find your ball. Occasionally, you find a ball there that someone probably deemed was in the creek, but it's not like walking through those areas of the course where you're always finding a random ball. 

 

I've been a member here 3.5 years and this is the first time that I can recall taking a drop and then finding your ball later.  

 

@rogolf typically, we drop (with relief from the path) on the fairway side of the cart path because you will always wind up there. If you drop creek-side, you won't have full relief from the lateral hazard, and if you drop on the cart path, you're going to eventually take relief towards the fairway after your ball comes to rest on the path. I think two club lengths gets you just over the path, so a righty will be standing on the path. If the cameras were on me in a tournament. . .I'd call in an official. 

 

 

[LeoLeo99]

On 12/7/2020 at 10:51 AM, Halebopp said:

Easy question first, yes, it's a loss-of-hole penalty in match play.

 

This Interpretation covers your issue pretty well and also answers when the "Wrong Place" could come up, but in short, it might've played a role had the player not made a stroke at the ball before the original ball was found. The original ball was abandoned and a wrong ball the moment the player substituted it by taking relief from the Penalty Area though.

 

https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/interpretations/rule-17-interpretations#17-1d-3-2

 

Hmm, I think your interpretation is incorrect.  There's no loss of hole and the player just proceeds with the dropped ball.   We assume they KVC their ball was in the PA and proceeded accordingly.  To later find out their ball wasn't in the PA does not mean they played from wrong spot or it's a wrong ball.  

[Mr. Bean]

22 minutes ago, TheCityGame said:

Well, let me put it this way. . .when you find a ball over there, you generally find it pretty quickly. 

 

Of course lack of finding a ball over there isn't proof that it's in the creek, but it's not an area where balls really hide -- that's all I'm saying.  It's not leafy. It's not thick. You always give it look because sometimes you have a shot from over there if you find your ball. Occasionally, you find a ball there that someone probably deemed was in the creek, but it's not like walking through those areas of the course where you're always finding a random ball. 

 

 

As I said, that 95% estimate of yours may or may not be correct and ultimately it is your call. Just be honest with yourself and all is well.

[Mr. Bean]

17 minutes ago, LeoLeo99 said:

 

Hmm, I think your interpretation is incorrect.  There's no loss of hole and the player just proceeds with the dropped ball.   We assume they KVC their ball was in the PA and proceeded accordingly.  To later find out their ball wasn't in the PA does not mean they played from wrong spot or it's a wrong ball.  

 

You and Halebopp are talking about different things but both of you are correct in your own issues. Halebopp answered the easy question in his first paragraph, not the entire case. The other text following dealt with the case in general.

 

The easy question was this:

'One last thing. . .in rule 14.7, what to do when a ball is played from a wrong place, it says what to do when playing stroke play, but it doesn't have a section on what to do if it happens in match play. I assume it's loss of hole, or that player is out of the hole in a fourball, but I'm not sure. '

 

 

Edited December 8, 2020 by Mr. Bean

[LeoLeo99]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

You and Halebopp are talking about different things but both of you are correct in your own issues. Halebopp answered the easy question, not the entire case.

Thanks.  I should have read the OP slower.  

[Mr. Bean]

1 minute ago, LeoLeo99 said:

Thanks.  I should have read the OP slower.  

It happens.

[rogolf]

2 hours ago, TheCityGame said:

Well, let me put it this way. . .when you find a ball over there, you generally find it pretty quickly. 

 

Of course lack of finding a ball over there isn't proof that it's in the creek, but it's not an area where balls really hide -- that's all I'm saying.  It's not leafy. It's not thick. You always give it look because sometimes you have a shot from over there if you find your ball. Occasionally, you find a ball there that someone probably deemed was in the creek, but it's not like walking through those areas of the course where you're always finding a random ball. 

 

I've been a member here 3.5 years and this is the first time that I can recall taking a drop and then finding your ball later.  

 

@rogolf typically, we drop (with relief from the path) on the fairway side of the cart path because you will always wind up there. If you drop creek-side, you won't have full relief from the lateral hazard, and if you drop on the cart path, you're going to eventually take relief towards the fairway after your ball comes to rest on the path. I think two club lengths gets you just over the path, so a righty will be standing on the path. If the cameras were on me in a tournament. . .I'd call in an official. 

 

 

Recall that "full relief from the penalty area" means that the ball stays within the two club-length relief area, is not nearer the hole and is outside the penalty area.  "Relief" does not include for your stance.  The ball may roll off the cart path towards the penalty area and stop short of the penalty area, but you are standing in the penalty area - you've completed the relief procedure and need to play the ball as it now lies.

[sui generis]

The Rules don't do themselves any favors by sometimes caring where the players feet are and other times not caring. Same goes for the location of the ball, sometimes it matters and other times not. 

[Mr. Bean]

13 minutes ago, sui generis said:

The Rules don't do themselves any favors by sometimes caring where the players feet are and other times not caring. Same goes for the location of the ball, sometimes it matters and other times not. 

 

This reminds me of Penn & Teller. After an act Penn explains what has happened using a language only the acting magician understands. Now Sui is doing that 😉

[Halebopp]

51 minutes ago, sui generis said:

The Rules don't do themselves any favors by sometimes caring where the players feet are and other times not caring. Same goes for the location of the ball, sometimes it matters and other times not. 

 

I got this question for the first time this summer when a player was taking relief from a Red Penalty Area. I have to say I was slightly surprised by the question as it was in mens' bronze-medal match in our national match play championships.