Well Maintained Vs. Browned Out

[Zach Silver]

I see a trend starting to arise where courses and players are embracing this "firm and fast" style which translates to browned out fairways. Courses especially in the southeast are not overseeing and just letting the Bermuda go dorment.  Some courses, Sweetens Cove for example are posting things like "down with the brown". 

I think its a dangerous trend in the US, that is stripping this country of the well maintained carpet like conditions (Augusta style) that has been the goal and norm in the past. 

Thoughts?

[davep043]

Firm and fast, ala Scotland summertime, is be very different from dormant Bermuda over the winter.  As I understand it, choosing not to overseed saves money, saves water.  In addition, the course plays better through a lot more of the year.  I was in the Pinehurst area over Thanksgiving, and played one course that had overseeded.  Yes, the green grass looked nice, but it was wet.  To get the overseed rye to grow, it takes a bunch of water, so the course always plays soft and slow at that time of year.  And the rye never comes in dense enough to actually form a good turf, its just wispy and pretty green.   In the Spring, the overseed rye is using nutrients that would otherwise be available to help the Bermuda to start growing again, so overseeding delays good conditions in the Spring.  

The trend I see in that area is artificial color.  A number of courses will use "paint" to give fairways and greens a nice color while the grass is dormant.  It seems a perfect solution, you get a pretty green look, better playing conditions, and less cost.  

[azmx]

Overseeding is for people that like to look at golf courses, not those that actually like to play them.  I hate it and think the goal of green all the time is the worst thing that has happened to the game.

[EDT501]

I like looking at Augusta as much as the next person and enjoy playing on a course that has that type of immaculate conditioning, but I think the US is overdue for a reset on conditioning expectations. I've only played one course that has pulled off the Augusta approach and that club has a blank check for a maintenance budget. On the other hand, I have played dozens of courses/clubs (some of which are household names and rather exclusive) that tried and failed. Lots of soggy fairways, patchy over-seeding (even if it looks great from the tee box), and generally just less than ideal conditions. Sure, they look nice and green when everything else is brown in the winter, but they don't necessarily play well. Furthermore, it is extremely expensive to try and achieve the Augusta look. It takes a large grounds crew, extensive irrigation, a ****-ton of water (sometimes tens of millions of gallons) to pull it off. This drives up greens-fees/club dues for dubious benefits. Making golf courses more expensive and less environmentally sustainable chasing an unattainable ideal is not a recipe for the long term success of the game.

[Abh159]

Like others have mentioned, overseeding is not only expensive and time consuming, but it can also set back course conditions come spring / early summer. Really the only benefit to overseeding is that it looks "pretty". Most courses that overseed don't do it properly anyway. It looks okay from a distance but once you get up close you realize it's just wispy blades of green rye grass surrounded by the dormant bermuda. 

 

Personally I'll take brown and dormant fairways all day over slow, sticky overseeded ones. 

[Zach Silver]

Replies seem to make sense, obviously soggy or poor conditions other times in the year due to over-seed is pointless if only to achieve a look. 

Are there any courses you all know of that do a good job spraying the course green, this does seem to me like the best compromise. 

I just can't get myself to travel to play a course that is browned out despite what it means for playability.

[Newgs]

We paint our course and it looks pretty good through the winter. We do this instead of over-seeding for all of the reasons stated above. We do however over seed our range and it looks pretty good from the clubhouse. 

[EDT501]

5 minutes ago, Zach Silver said:

I just can't get myself to travel to play a course that is browned out despite what it means for playability.

Would you travel to play St. Andrews, Carnoustie, Royal Liverpool, Royal Dornach, or Muirfield? These are all bucket-list courses that, to the best of my knowledge, only irrigate their greens and during periods of drought can be quite brown and baked out (Royal Liverpool in 2006 for the Open being an awesome example).

 

I get it, green is pretty and all of us Americans have been conditioned since birth to see Augusta as the standard and what an American course should look like. To quote Master Yoda, "you must unlearn what you have learned." It ain't easy, but once you accept that the underlying course probably plays better browned out than over-seeded, you may come around. 5 years ago I would have been right there with you, but now I enjoy the winter conditions as the firmer faster fairways in the south when Bermuda goes dormant let me play ground-game approaches that wouldn't be possible in the middle of the summer when everything is lush and green. It takes a shift in perspective for sure, but brown courses can be beautiful in their own right. 

[Zach Silver]

In regards to your questions about those UK courses, of course I would travel to play them because that is how they are designed to be played, it fits with the overall landscape and the courses' aesthetic doesn't rely on the grass. The ocean, dunes, rippled fairways, fescue, gorse etc. adds an element that make these courses beautiful without green grass. 

IMO in this country, parkland style/non links style courses need to be green to be enjoyable/beautiful. I think it's what sets US golf apart from the world and what we have come to expect for a reason, especially when paying huge greens fees on public courses, and big private member dues -another big difference from the native courses in the UK that charge far less and have much lower capabilities due to financial constraints.

[GSDriver]

We actually love playing on the dormant bermuda, the greens are rolled and often get faster than in the summer...sometimes almost too fast, if there is such a thing.

[Duffer222]

All of the courses near me are white right now, so I’d take any of the above!

[Abh159]

24 minutes ago, Zach Silver said:

I think it's what sets US golf apart from the world and what we have come to expect for a reason, especially when paying huge greens fees on public courses, and big private member dues -another big difference from the native courses in the UK that charge far less and have much lower capabilities due to financial constraints.

 

@Zach Silver it sort of sounds like your home course chose not to overseed this year and maybe you're upset about it 🤨.

 

The truth is most golf courses in the US do have financial constraints. Country club membership numbers are declining around the country and the average age of a member keeps going up. Why do you think so many courses getting bulldozed over for a new neighborhood or condo development? Courses are having to find ways to stay profitable and skipping the overseding one year might be one of them.

 

I agree that a browned out, dormant course isn't as pretty, but it plays a whole lot better than an overseeded one and that is what is most important to me. 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Abh159

[EDT501]

17 minutes ago, Zach Silver said:

IMO in this country, parkland style/non links style courses need to be green to be enjoyable/beautiful.

This popular consensus is precisely why so many courses try and maintain the green aesthetic at great financial, usually to the detriment of the actual playability of the course. Again, of all the courses I have played, only one pulled it off. I won't lie, if I could get a membership and play there all winter long, I'd do it in a heartbeat; nothing beats having true Augusta-like conditioning. But even nice private country clubs that spends millions chasing that aesthetic usually fail to achieve them without compromising on the actual playability of the course - so my question is, why bother? I'd much rather play the local browned out muni than the overwatered, soft emerald-green country club just across the bayou as the conditions are more conducive to the actual playing of golf as I enjoy it . I think the game would be better off if the golfing public moved away from equating greenness with quality and towards valuing architectural interest, playability, and affordability. 

2 hours ago, Zach Silver said:

I think its a dangerous trend in the US, that is stripping this country of the well maintained carpet like conditions (Augusta style) that has been the goal and norm in the past.

I'm definitely coming at this from the perspective of someone deep down the "woke golf" rabbit-hole, and don't claim that my views are popular or a universal truth. If the green aesthetic is part of the draw to you, no problem, simply seek out courses that maintain that standard and/or play in seasons when lushness naturally occurs. I do, however, object to classifying this as a "dangerous trend" as it is likely going to be a necessity as courses continue to need to tighten maintenance budgets and better account for their environmental impact in the future. 

[Steele47]

2 hours ago, azmx said:

Overseeding is for people that like to look at golf courses, not those that actually like to play them.  I hate it and think the goal of green all the time is the worst thing that has happened to the game.

 

Completely agree.   It's like plastic surgery disasters.  Just let nature run it course.

[Bonneville85308]

I am fine with playing on dormant bermuda fairways regardless of color unless it is scalped down and/or completely trampled into hardpan by cart traffic. Then it's no longer fun for me. Courses in Scotland or woke private clubs don't get the cart traffic of the typical US public course. By the end of winter here in Phoenix, the dormant rough on most busy public courses is completely worn down to the dirt.

 

If anything I'd probably prefer that public courses here skip the overseeding of tees (except maybe par 3's that get chewed up from divots?) and greens and perhaps limit it to the fairway if there is a desire to cut back on overseeding.

Edited December 19, 2020 by Bonneville85308

[mallrat]

I don’t mean to be rude but this is an insanely ignorant post. Do you know what is going on financially at the club? If it is a private club more than likely it was approved by the greens committee. If not that likely saved the course upwards of $50k. Also if it is a public course, would you rather pay $110 a round all year or $80 a round all year?

[grm24]

7 hours ago, EDT501 said:

I get it, green is pretty and all of us Americans have been conditioned since birth to see Augusta as the standard and what an American course should look like.

Hard no.

[grm24]

<nevermind> The OP wouldn't understand.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by grm24

[hollabachgt]

"Augusta Style" is a plague on this game and is not a model that should ever be followed. It is a product of color television and does not property condition the ground for play.

 

What Augusta National does to present their course in they way they do for the Masters each year is incredible expensive and only possible because of the climate and general use of the course. It is not sustainable for other clubs to follow suit unless they are willing to increase there maintenance budget and staff 3-4 times.

 

How uniformly green a courses grass is has no bearing on its health. It's typically the exact opposite. The fact that someone in 2020 still believes that what Augusta does is the correct way to present a course, any course in the world, saddens me. 

[klebs01]

1 hour ago, hollabachgt said:

"Augusta Style" is a plague on this game and is not a model that should ever be followed. It is a product of color television and does not property condition the ground for play.

 

What Augusta National does to present their course in they way they do for the Masters each year is incredible expensive and only possible because of the climate and general use of the course. It is not sustainable for other clubs to follow suit unless they are willing to increase there maintenance budget and staff 3-4 times.

 

How uniformly green a courses grass is has no bearing on its health. It's typically the exact opposite. The fact that someone in 2020 still believes that what Augusta does is the correct way to present a course, any course in the world, saddens me. 

Can’t like this enough. The Augustafication of American golf is one of the worst things to happen to the game. It’s expensive, environmentally harmful, and produces poor playing conditions. Brown grass doesn’t mean it’s unhealthy, and can often be healthier than bright green grass.  The overwatering necessary can lead to disease requiring more environmentally harmful inputs, entering a vicious cycle just to maintain color. Forget color and just worry about how the surface plays. 

[dlygrisse]

21 hours ago, Zach Silver said:

 

I think its a dangerous trend in the US, that is stripping this country of the well maintained carpet like conditions (Augusta style) that has been the goal and norm in the past. 

Thoughts?

I hope you are being sarcastic here.  “Dangerous” to who?  Water conservationists, the bottom line at the course will certainly be better. 

[caniac6]

I believe ANGC is open for play Oct-May, or basically when Bermuda is just about ready to go dormant until it has been growing for about a month. Their overseed is done when nobody is playing, so it doesn't inconvenience the members. They also have an unlimited budget to make things look perfect. They are the ultimate fantasy land. I can only think of one course near me that has overseeded in the last 20 years.

[Zach Silver]

This backlash was expected.

A couple of points I want to make-

1. I used the word “dangerous” which is perhaps dramatic. What I meant was that if as players we no longer demand good looking courses, we will no longer will have good looking courses. 
There is a middle ground where speed is maintained, but not at the expense of aesthetics. Spraying options like pinehurst employs to keep their fairways green is an option that doesn’t sacrifice playing conditions. This may be the best of both worlds in my opinion. 
2. I maintain the view that traveling distance to go to a well known course that we have seen in good green condition in pictures only to find that it looks like a $20 muni is disappointing no matter how firm and fast it plays. 

However, I’m still open minded. Show me a course that looks enjoyable to play browned out (non links). A course where the architecture is so good that you wouldn’t care if it looks like a county course. 

[hollabachgt]

 

Zach, were you appalled at how Pinehurst looked for the 2014 US Open?  

[ThinkingPlus]

I am pleased if I get to play a golf course that has grass and isn't a swamp.  Color is irrelevant.

[tjblue]

18 minutes ago, hollabachgt said:

 

Zach, were you appalled at how Pinehurst looked for the 2014 US Open?  

Played Pinehurst In Feb 2013 and they painted the fairways. It looked pretty good and I was happy to part with my money. Played Dormie the same month for 50$ and would have happily paid an extra 25 for green fairways.

 

[klebs01]

42 minutes ago, Zach Silver said:

This backlash was expected.

A couple of points I want to make-

1. I used the word “dangerous” which is perhaps dramatic. What I meant was that if as players we no longer demand good looking courses, we will no longer will have good looking courses. 
There is a middle ground where speed is maintained, but not at the expense of aesthetics. Spraying options like pinehurst employs to keep their fairways green is an option that doesn’t sacrifice playing conditions. This may be the best of both worlds in my opinion. 
2. I maintain the view that traveling distance to go to a well known course that we have seen in good green condition in pictures only to find that it looks like a $20 muni is disappointing no matter how firm and fast it plays. 

However, I’m still open minded. Show me a course that looks enjoyable to play browned out (non links). A course where the architecture is so good that you wouldn’t care if it looks like a county course. 

painting may be the worst option as it’s a complete waste a that does nothing to benefit the playing surface. 
 

for your second point, I can’t think of a single course that I’ve traveled to play that wasn’t better on the brown side. The only time I’ve had issues with course conditions when traveling is when courses over watered to maintain unnecessarily green conditions. This made the courses play slow and soft with mud balls and unhealthy turf. 

[Bonneville85308]

38 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

painting may be the worst option as it’s a complete waste a that does nothing to benefit the playing surface. 
 

for your second point, I can’t think of a single course that I’ve traveled to play that wasn’t better on the brown side. The only time I’ve had issues with course conditions when traveling is when courses over watered to maintain unnecessarily green conditions. This made the courses play slow and soft with mud balls and unhealthy turf. 

 

The only benefit I see from painting the dormant fairways is it might stop idiots who don't know what they are talking about from posting negative reviews of the course on the internet saying stuff like "the course was in terrible condition, the fairways were all brown and dead". Can't tell you how many times I see this on course reviews around Phoenix in the winter from morons who have no idea what dormant bermuda rough even is.

[klebs01]

4 minutes ago, Bonneville85308 said:

 

The only benefit I see from painting the dormant fairways is it might stop idiots who don't know what they are talking about from posting negative reviews of the course on the internet saying stuff like "the course was in terrible condition, the fairways were all brown and dead". Can't tell you how many times I see this on course reviews around Phoenix in the winter from morons who have no idea what dormant bermuda rough even is.

i understand not wanting the reviews but don’t understand the reviews. I would choose dormant Bermuda 100/100 over over-seeded rye. This is a good topic for the USGA to have an educational program.  

[ArtMBgolf]

There is usually a mix of dormant and overseeded courses to choose from.  
 
Overseed is popular at resorts, who will be charging big bucks in the spring
or courses that will hold big tournaments in the spring.