Well Maintained Vs. Browned Out

[FairwayFred]

I prefer a more brown look personally.  It looks more natural to me than perfect green turf everywhere and I greatly prefer the way it plays.  Just because you like the look of green doesn't mean everyone else does.  When I lived in TN I was a member at a club that didn't overseed their Bermuda and the course was so much better when the grass was dormant.  I always told people it was a parkland in the summer and a links in the winter. I for one am a huge fan of this new "brown is beautiful" trend.  

[PappyVanWinkle53]

This is a great thread that I stumbled upon.  Thanks to everyone for sharing their insights.

[DonatelloNobodie]

Painting is a great idea.  Maybe use different colors, orange, blue, red.  Maybe color code holes.  Par 3 orange, par 4 blue, par 5 red.

 

Seriously, playing condition is all that matters.  I prefer firm fairways over soft mudball, lawn dart, fairways.

 

If you demand green, play on your computer or game console.

[PappyVanWinkle53]

On 12/20/2020 at 11:18 AM, caniac6 said:

On advantage of painting vs overseed is weed control. You can spray Round Up on dormant bermuda to kill weeds. Spraying this on the overseed would kill the rye or bluegrass that is used.

I didn't realize you could use weed spray on dormant bermuda grass to kill off weeds.  Thanks for sharing!

[Zach Silver]

12 minutes ago, DonatelloNobodie said:

Painting is a great idea.  Maybe use different colors, orange, blue, red.  Maybe color code holes.  Par 3 orange, par 4 blue, par 5 red.

 

Seriously, playing condition is all that matters.  I prefer firm fairways over soft mudball, lawn dart, fairways.

 

If you demand green, play on your computer or game console.

The idea of a green golf course is not an outlandish one. It’s the idea of a golf course that isn’t green being superior that is an outlier. 
It’s like being alright with skiing on yellow snow because the conditions are good. There is something about the combination of condition and aesthetic that makes a golf course. Many good courses don’t get credit they deserve because of the condition they are kept in. 
If spraying green allows a course to play firm and look great at the same time that seems like a good idea to me. 
I understand the whole discussion centers  around people liking brown courses more again I don’t buy that the general population feels this way. 

Edited December 24, 2020 by Zach Silver

[PappyVanWinkle53]

On 12/20/2020 at 2:59 PM, Zach Silver said:

Keep the examples coming. 
Would no other grass type be able to withstand the summer heat besides Bermuda? Why do all of these southern courses use it? 

 

 

On 12/20/2020 at 3:46 PM, Abh159 said:

There’s always other options, but most require more maintenance and upkeep and therefore will be more expensive. 
 

Bermuda does best in high temps, it’s naturally drought resistant, and it can withstand a ton of foot traffic. It can also be cut a lot shorter resulting in a smoother surface in the fairways and especially on the greens. With rye and bluegrass you can damage it if you cut it too short so courses with these will usually have longer fairways. 

 

 

In addition to what @Abh159 said above, Bermuda does a great job of repairing itself because it is a creeping grass.  When you take a divot in the fairway, especially if you fill it with sand, the bermuda will spread and grow over top of the divot in no time....

[caniac6]

3 hours ago, PappyVanWinkle53 said:

I didn't realize you could use weed spray on dormant bermuda grass to kill off weeds.  Thanks for sharing!

I would recommend doing it deep in dormancy. Not soon after going dormant, and not too close to breaking dormancy. 

Edited December 24, 2020 by caniac6

[BNGL]

3 hours ago, PappyVanWinkle53 said:

I didn't realize you could use weed spray on dormant bermuda grass to kill off weeds.  Thanks for sharing!

If you can see green when standing on the stand you want to apply glyphosate to, don’t spray it. But if you can’t go ahead, if memory serves the label rate is 16oz/acre (.37oz/M). The reason being is there isn’t any live tissue that will actively take it up, and the brown in the canopy will shield any bermuda preventing it from turning. 

[mallrat]

6 hours ago, PappyVanWinkle53 said:

I didn't realize you could use weed spray on dormant bermuda grass to kill off weeds.  Thanks for sharing!

That is a ballsy super that would put round up in a tank. Or just something I can’t fathom as everything around here is Poa or maybe Bent and 2 or 3 fescue courses. 

Edited December 24, 2020 by mallrat

[mallrat]

2 hours ago, BNGL said:

If you can see green when standing on the stand you want to apply glyphosate to, don’t spray it. But if you can’t go ahead, if memory serves the label rate is 16oz/acre (.37oz/M). The reason being is there isn’t any live tissue that will actively take it up, and the brown in the canopy will shield any bermuda preventing it from turning. 

But you better be sure you don’t have any Poa or other grasses mixed in correct?

 

I look at is as the old saying around “ if you want to get rid of your Poa you better be prepared for what you will find.”

[BNGL]

1 hour ago, mallrat said:

That is a ballsy super that would put round up in a tank. Or just something I can’t fathom as everything around here is Poa or maybe Bent and 2 or 3 fescue courses. 

 

58 minutes ago, mallrat said:

But you better be sure you don’t have any Poa or other grasses mixed in correct?

 

I look at is as the old saying around “ if you want to get rid of your Poa you better be prepared for what you will find.”

I’ve never put round up in a spray rig, although I have known some that have (they were renovating). But I mean if I have a bermuda stand and I want to keep it free of contaminants you can spray it no problem. It’ll kill everything that’s actively growing as it’s non selective. The dormancy just means that the plant isn’t taking up nutrients through the foliage, which glyphosate needs to be since it’s a contact herbicide. Which means it’s absorbed through the lead blade and taken to the growing points, where it then inhibits essential enzyme production leading to decline of the plant which yall see as yellowing and thinning. 
 

Yeah I’ve heard horror stories of some guys tank mixing poa cure or something similar and just smoking there fairways/greens/tees because they simply didn’t realize that 80 percent of their target spray area was poa, not the 15 percent they were thinking. 

Edited December 24, 2020 by BNGL

[Heritage Printmaker]

On 12/23/2020 at 2:50 PM, lefty1978 said:

Bermuda or Zoysia, thats it...both go dormant in the winter.

Not entirely true. There's Seashore Paspalum. Very similar to bermudagrass with a shorter dormancy period (2-3 months). That being said, it's very sticky to play on. When I've played on it greatly reduces any roll. The ground game is almost non-exsistent. But hey....it's green as green can be. 

 

[caniac6]

1 hour ago, BNGL said:

 

I’ve never put round up in a spray rig, although I have known some that have (they were renovating). But I mean if I have a bermuda stand and I want to keep it free of contaminants you can spray it no problem. It’ll kill everything that’s actively growing as it’s non selective. The dormancy just means that the plant isn’t taking up nutrients through the foliage, which glyphosate needs to be since it’s a contact herbicide. Which means it’s absorbed through the lead blade and taken to the growing points, where it then inhibits essential enzyme production leading to decline of the plant which yall see as yellowing and thinning. 
 

Yeah I’ve heard horror stories of some guys tank mixing poa cure or something similar and just smoking there fairways/greens/tees because they simply didn’t realize that 80 percent of their target spray area was poa, not the 15 percent they were thinking. 

We had a tank mounted on a carry all, and spot sprayed. I can't remember using a sprayer, and spraying a whole fairway.

 

[BNGL]

50 minutes ago, caniac6 said:

We had a tank mounted on a carry all, and spot sprayed. I can't remember using a sprayer, and spraying a whole fairway.

 

That’s what a majority do I feel like. I know I mixed up a Hahn spray bug (round up/fusilade) when we transitioned some areas to celebration bermuda. If I was in a transition zone climate and had bermuda that was dormant, I’d be ok with mixing up a tank to spray it. The only thing I’d be concerned about would be getting it out of the tank and the lines haha it would need to be rinsed multiple times. 

[Tim_Gavrich]

On 12/24/2020 at 9:36 AM, Zach Silver said:

The idea of a green golf course is not an outlandish one. It’s the idea of a golf course that isn’t green being superior that is an outlier. 
It’s like being alright with skiing on yellow snow because the conditions are good. There is something about the combination of condition and aesthetic that makes a golf course. Many good courses don’t get credit they deserve because of the condition they are kept in. 
If spraying green allows a course to play firm and look great at the same time that seems like a good idea to me. 
I understand the whole discussion centers  around people liking brown courses more again I don’t buy that the general population feels this way. 

I'm not sure the snow analogy works here, because snow is always naturally white in color, so naturally skiiers should always expect to see white snow. I'm not aware of any ski hills that are painted other colors (maybe in the SSX Tricky video games?). On the other hand, many grasses do change color naturally, including the Bermuda varieties that are mainly being discussed here.

 

Just because I and most of the other commenters on this thread are okay with the look of dormant grass when the weather dictates, it doesn't make us "contrarian purists." It just means we value the way a course plays more than the way it looks. That's a position that is gaining in popularity.

 

For what it's worth, I've played two courses that paint their fairways in the last few days: Grande Dunes Members Club (now semi-private) and Wachesaw Plantation Club (private). I think both looked good and, most importantly, appropriate for this part of the world at this time of year. The paint at Grande Dunes went down a day or two before I played, so it was pretty bright, though the shade is less jarring than that of rye overseed. It will fade toward the tan of the dormant stuff over the coming weeks.

 

Is the look of these courses acceptable to you, relative to the much brighter green (and generally mushier playing conditions) of an actual overseeded fairway? 

[Zach Silver]

Yes- to me that contrast between the green and dormant grass looks pretty cool considering the alternative (completely brown). 

[azmx]

Not a contrarian purist in any way but I can also assure that brown vs green is not meaningful to me either. I don’t know why it is so hard to believe that some people don’t find that meaningful. It just isn’t to me. And, honestly, to kinda prove the point I don’t mind if they paint the fairways either. The way the course plays is far more meaningful to me. 
 

I played yesterday on a “links” course. I say that because it should be a links course but it is very soft right now. From an elevated tee I had my tee shot embed in the fairway because it was so soft. Sure, the course plays very easy that way but it is a massive disappointment because it is so much more fun when it is playing firm and fast. It is also way more difficult that way. 

[caniac6]

The firm and fast conditions have a lot more to do with the soil conditions than the color of the grass. I live in central NC, and we have clay soil, and dormant bermuda. He have had a fair ammout of rain, and with the dormant bermuda, the course plays long because the grass isn't drinking up the water. A sandy soil drains much better than the clay, and will play faster any time of year. Most courses around here don't water fairways too often in the summer. It's pretty darn hard to kill bermuda. So, it can play very fast when the grass is green.

[BNGL]

On 12/24/2020 at 5:16 PM, Heritage Printmaker said:

Not entirely true. There's Seashore Paspalum. Very similar to bermudagrass with a shorter dormancy period (2-3 months). That being said, it's very sticky to play on. When I've played on it greatly reduces any roll. The ground game is almost non-exsistent. But hey....it's green as green can be. 

 

While paspalums dormancy is shorter than that of bermuda, I’m not sure it’s been planted/grown in transition areas where bermuda stands would be going dormant for long periods of time. It very well could be grown in those regions, but the only places I’ve seen it are either coastal/tropical or warm/arid environments. 
 

As you mentioned paspalum is very very sticky compared to other cultivars. But to kind of relate, hopefully to this thread, I wouldn’t want brown on my course especially if it was paspalum. Because it’s super temperamental, at the first sign of drought stress and localized dry spot (LDS), it’ll decline to unacceptable conditions and take awhile to get back in shape. But you can get it back in shape because of its excellent root and rhizome growth but LDS can take a day to happen and 6 months to get back, it’s that severe.

[BNGL]

8 hours ago, caniac6 said:

The firm and fast conditions have a lot more to do with the soil conditions than the color of the grass. I live in central NC, and we have clay soil, and dormant bermuda. He have had a fair ammout of rain, and with the dormant bermuda, the course plays long because the grass isn't drinking up the water. A sandy soil drains much better than the clay, and will play faster any time of year. Most courses around here don't water fairways too often in the summer. It's pretty darn hard to kill bermuda. So, it can play very fast when the grass is green.

Hear hear! What you don’t see is what matters...my main job was to manage soil as a superintendent, growing grass was the by product of doing my job well. Could Seminole ever play super soft? Nope. Jupiter Hills? Nope. Bears Club? Nope. Why? Because they sit atop sugar sand ridges. You could have a fairway rotor running all night and still be able to drive your truck out right next to the head and it wouldn’t rut up. Why? Because the sand allows the water to move through the profile... that and the incorporation or drivers into the spray programs. CD

There is/was a property in Orlando called Orange Lake Resort, I believe it had 4 courses on property? But anyways the championship course there called The Legends was capped with 8 inches of sand wall to wall when it was built, hugely expensive. Now Florida is basically already a huge sandbar but sand isn’t just sand. Different particle sizes achieve different things because you have to relate the porosity of the soil and it’s ability to exchange air and water, you’ll also see how sand affects the accumulation of thatch and Sodium Adsorption Ratios (SAR). But my point is after a mid summer rain, you’re cart path only for two days on the other three courses but you could go 90 degrees the next day at Legends, why? Because of the sand underneath. That sand let’s water perc so much faster through the profile than the natural sandy loam on the other courses.
 

 

[FairwayFred]

6 hours ago, BNGL said:

Hear hear! What you don’t see is what matters...my main job was to manage soil as a superintendent, growing grass was the by product of doing my job well. Could Seminole ever play super soft? Nope. Jupiter Hills? Nope. Bears Club? Nope. Why? Because they sit atop sugar sand ridges. You could have a fairway rotor running all night and still be able to drive your truck out right next to the head and it wouldn’t rut up. Why? Because the sand allows the water to move through the profile... that and the incorporation or drivers into the spray programs. CD

There is/was a property in Orlando called Orange Lake Resort, I believe it had 4 courses on property? But anyways the championship course there called The Legends was capped with 8 inches of sand wall to wall when it was built, hugely expensive. Now Florida is basically already a huge sandbar but sand isn’t just sand. Different particle sizes achieve different things because you have to relate the porosity of the soil and it’s ability to exchange air and water, you’ll also see how sand affects the accumulation of thatch and Sodium Adsorption Ratios (SAR). But my point is after a mid summer rain, you’re cart path only for two days on the other three courses but you could go 90 degrees the next day at Legends, why? Because of the sand underneath. That sand let’s water perc so much faster through the profile than the natural sandy loam on the other courses.
 

 

This is very true.  The soil composition has a huge effect on the firmness of your turf.  More than grass. But grass does have an effect especially Bermuda which is a very thick bladed, sticky grass.  When dormant the ball rolls much more over its surface turf conditions being equal.  Same reason the ball rolls more over fescue surfaces than bent.  There's just more grass contact with the ball with thicker bladed grasses.  That said nothing gives you firm and fast conditions like a sand based site.  

[BNGL]

8 minutes ago, FairwayFred said:

This is very true.  The soil composition has a huge effect on the firmness of your turf.  More than grass. But grass does have an effect especially Bermuda which is a very thick bladed, sticky grass.  When dormant the ball rolls much more over its surface turf conditions being equal.  Same reason the ball rolls more over fescue surfaces than bent.  There's just more grass contact with the ball with thicker bladed grasses.  That said nothing gives you firm and fast conditions like a sand based site.  

That’s true, but I’d argue that’s the old way of thinking. Today’s new ultra dwarf and hybrid varieties of bermudas are as fine bladed as they come. 
 

 

[hollabachgt]

On 12/24/2020 at 9:36 AM, Zach Silver said:

The idea of a green golf course is not an outlandish one. It’s the idea of a golf course that isn’t green being superior that is an outlier.

 

Are you saying a course that "isn't green" is entirely brown or mixes of greens & browns but not entirely emerald green?

 

 

 

[FairwayFred]

On 12/26/2020 at 12:51 PM, BNGL said:

That’s true, but I’d argue that’s the old way of thinking. Today’s new ultra dwarf and hybrid varieties of bermudas are as fine bladed as they come. 
 

 

This is a fair point too.  I have very little experience with fairways etc in those types of grasses.  

[Soloman1]

Painting a course can be like putting lipstick on a pig if the course isn't all that memorable. I've played some courses that I can't remember a single hole, let alone the winter rye or paint.

 

I've played courses that didn't dye their hair and it was interesting and still very much golf.

[Zach Silver]

15 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

Painting a course can be like putting lipstick on a pig if the course isn't all that memorable. I've played some courses that I can't remember a single hole, let alone the winter rye or paint.

 

I've played courses that didn't dye their hair and it was interesting and still very much golf.

I’m actually saying the opposite. I think that a good course can be looked over more often if their conditions don’t meet the players expectation of what a golf course should look like. Again- the crux of this argument assumes a majority of players have a preference for green fairways. 
if tou like brown it doesn’t matter either way. But I would contend that many great courses are played in dormant conditions and are therefore looked unfavorably upon by players who haven’t seen them in peak condition. 
It seems many on this thread aren’t able to put themselves in the shoes of the 95% of golfers who aren’t agronomists or architecture aficionados who can look past aesthetics or understand why they are that way. 
I think it’s unfortunate that great course get overlooked or called overrated because of aesthetic  that they can alter if they choose to. 

[Soloman1]

I'm not sure most people think the way you're painting them. (pun intended)

There is no evidence that you're correct.

 

Just because x-number of people don't have the depth of thought to appreciate something doesn't mean we all have to be as shallow or simple-minded.

 

🙂

 

 

Edited December 27, 2020 by Soloman1

[EDT501]

I think it is probably true that most golfers - many of whom only play a few rounds a year - equate visually-lush green conditions with quality. But just because that is currently the case doesn't mean that courses should, necessarily cater to those preferences. I think it'd be better for the long term health of the game for the golf-establishment to actively try and educate the golfing public about the seasonal variation in turf color and how it doesn't relate to the quality of the golf itself. It'd lower maintenance costs in the long run, be more environmentally sustainable, and allow superintendents to focus on the aspects of the course that actually impact play. 

[lhahn]

This thread gives me the feeling of the way a certain country likes to impose itself on the rest of us and then not understand how anyone else could have an opposing opinion on an issue that is SUBJECTIVE, then finish it off by calling me a demeaning name for having a "contrarian purist" point of view. Classic.

 

World Series Champs. People's Mag Sexiest Man Alive. Etcetc...

[Zach Silver]

13 minutes ago, lhahn said:

This thread gives me the feeling of the way a certain country likes to impose itself on the rest of us and then not understand how anyone else could have an opposing opinion on an issue that is SUBJECTIVE, then finish it off by calling me a demeaning name for having a "contrarian purist" point of view. Classic.

 

World Series Champs. People's Mag Sexiest Man Alive. Etcetc...

I’m actually just talking about golf within the US. I like the brown in Scotland etc. to me it adds to the atmosphere of those areas. So on and so forth with other regions. Id it fits with the aesthetic I’m all for it. 
Parkland style golf to me demands green to have the optimal atmosphere. I see that changing for the reasons I’ve highlighted in other posts and I think it’s detrimental to parkland style golf in the US. 

Edited December 27, 2020 by Zach Silver