JT with a Ventus in the Tsi3?

[ForTourUseOnly]

35 minutes ago, Fujikura Golf said:

Great to see this conversation going guys! We love it when the community is super engaged about Fuji products and Tour usage! So we thank you for that. We noticed a few things along the way that we could address as hopefully it helps clarify things.

 

We don’t want to get too in the weeds with some of these posts as there is definitely some misinformation here and there. So as a friendly reminder – we build golf shafts with the intent of them being custom fit and built by our dealers for golfers. So our product marketing is primarily geared towards our dealers. Additionally, everything is relative. So what we mean by that is you cannot simply compare a blue ATMOS to a blue VENTUS to a blue diamana to a blue tensei. Everything is relative to the line, meaning the Red VENTUS launches slightly higher than the Blue so we’re doing our best to guide clubfitters through a color cue. An example relevant to this thread: VENTUS Red does not directly compare to ATMOS TS Red, but rather VENTUS Red is closest to ATMOS TS Blue. Fun Fact alert! So keep this in mind when you’re looking at shafts as you can’t automatically assume since you’re a “blue profile player” that VENTUS Blue is for you.

 

When it comes to shaft weight, we use numbers like 5,6 and 7 to designate the “class” it is in. If we wanted to specify the exact weight uncut we would put it on there, but we do not see the value in that. Again the classifications are there for our dealers to quickly recognize that a shaft is in the 50gram range, sub 60. Some are higher in their “class” than others, like VENTUS 5-S is closer to 60g class to achieve the 3.3 deg of torque (blue 5-S).

 

Ultimately, we do not recommend that golfers purchase a shaft based on EI profiles, specs, charts, Russ Ryden’s website, etc. What is on paper is not necessarily an accurate reflection of the design, feel or performance. A specific example would be thinking “VENTUS blue is a beefed up 757” based on EI profile or specs is inaccurate as they are exceptionally different.

 

We always recommend you get properly fit and go play golf with it to ensure you like how it feels and performs. So, in conclusion, don’t get too caught up in the numbers, go get fit, play some golf and let us know if you have any questions!

THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Fujikura Golf]

24 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

Amazing post and thank you for the clarification and advice.

One quick question. On the charts posted on your website, regarding sectional stiffness...how is that determined? Is it a measurement? A feel? Is it only relative to the shafts in that lineup (like comparing the ventus models against each other, and not against any other model or brand).
 

The fact that the ventus red is closest to the atmos ts blue is very interesting. Would you say its similar to the motore ts 7.3 as well? One of my all time favorites. Ok, maybe ill go see a fitter 😆

The sectional stiffness charts are developed with a combination of factors including butt flex, tip flex, etc.

No more comparisons! haha, Go get fit 😉 

 

10 minutes ago, ForTourUseOnly said:

THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

🙂

[awtryau89]

@Fujikura Golf with the mic drop. They won’t call anyone out but I can say using EI profiles to self fit even if they are exactly the same and indistinguishable on a chart is just wrong. Trust me I’ve tried using the older Wishon and the Ryden charts. Two shafts supposedly exactly the same relatively speaking where one performed great and the other was a piece of **** for my swing. You just can’t do it. Now I’m sure everyone will say they use it directionally and they make it work and this shaft is similar and yada yada yada. Just go get fit. 

[MattyO1984]

Looks like he is, at least, trying something different this week. Tour AD of some kind.

[Red4282]

14 minutes ago, MattyO1984 said:

Looks like he is, at least, trying something different this week. Tour AD of some kind.

Getting kinda comical at this point... i think its messin with his head now

[J13]

Winter is silly season and when guys on tour test things.  You'll know what's what by April

 

In regards to what @Fujikura Golf said I agree 100%.  Testing and getting fit is key, but nothing replaces what a club/shaft does on the golf course in a real round.  Through trial and error I've gotten more out of fittings by using a simple philosophy that i learned from watching Tiger Woods test things.  He said if he hits 3-5 shots and doesn't like what he see's it goes back in the box.  Anymore than that and he feels like he starts to compensate to make the club work as is vs. the club working for his swing.  I think we all do that to some extent and since i've taken this approach in fittings the results translate much better.

Edited January 19, 2021 by J13

[QuigleyDU]

7 hours ago, Red4282 said:

Getting kinda comical at this point... i think its messin with his head now

He just need to accept he is wild with a driver.. He has tried everything and sprayed everything.. haha.. 

[ForTourUseOnly]

11 minutes ago, QuigleyDU said:

He just need to accept he is wild with a driver.. He has tried everything and sprayed everything.. haha.. 

Crazy how he still is at the top of leaderboards though, if he can find something then it could be silly how good his finishes are.

[QuigleyDU]

1 minute ago, ForTourUseOnly said:

Crazy how he still is at the top of leaderboards though, if he can find something then it could be silly how good his finishes are.

Agreed. He is a good but somewhat streaky putter but he is a really good wedge and iron player. Those make up for a lot of mistakes off the tee. 

[ForTourUseOnly]

1 minute ago, QuigleyDU said:

Agreed. He is a good but somewhat streaky putter but he is a really good wedge and iron player. Those make up for a lot of mistakes off the tee. 

Totally agree, everyone on tour seems to be a streaky putter DJ, Tiger, Rory you name it. Putting seems to really be the main factor on who wins each week.

[DooZ]

10 minutes ago, ForTourUseOnly said:

Crazy how he still is at the top of leaderboards though, if he can find something then it could be silly how good his finishes are.

True, but until he stops swinging out of his shoes, I doubt he'll ever get to that level. And, how long can his body take swinging like that?

[FredCouplesFan]

4 hours ago, DooZ said:

True, but until he stops swinging out of his shoes, I doubt he'll ever get to that level. And, how long can his body take swinging like that?

I agree, it is the the only real weak link in his game. If he could dial it back just to 85 or 90 percent, I think he could be dominate.

[EDT501]

Has he been spotted in w/ the ZF in the TSi3 yet? If not, I wonder why it doesn't work for him with the new head. 

[IL2AZ]

He should go back to the Diamana BF and call it good.

[Mario Good Times]

Why are some pro who normally use 70 grams driver shafts using the 6-x in the ventus black ?  And doing this only for the ventus black 

[noodle3872]

1 hour ago, Mario Good Times said:

Why are some pro who normally use 70 grams driver shafts using the 6-x in the ventus black ?  And doing this only for the ventus black 

The Black is a bloody stout shaft so dropping weight probably maintained or slightly gained CHS/yardage. Additionally, the Black 6X is 65g vs 7X is 77.5g which is a considerable weight gap. 

[Valtiel]

On 1/15/2021 at 1:13 PM, Fujikura Golf said:

Great to see this conversation going guys! We love it when the community is super engaged about Fuji products and Tour usage! So we thank you for that. We noticed a few things along the way that we could address as hopefully it helps clarify things.

 

We don’t want to get too in the weeds with some of these posts as there is definitely some misinformation here and there. So as a friendly reminder – we build golf shafts with the intent of them being custom fit and built by our dealers for golfers. So our product marketing is primarily geared towards our dealers. Additionally, everything is relative. So what we mean by that is you cannot simply compare a blue ATMOS to a blue VENTUS to a blue diamana to a blue tensei. Everything is relative to the line, meaning the Red VENTUS launches slightly higher than the Blue so we’re doing our best to guide clubfitters through a color cue. An example relevant to this thread: VENTUS Red does not directly compare to ATMOS TS Red, but rather VENTUS Red is closest to ATMOS TS Blue. Fun Fact alert! So keep this in mind when you’re looking at shafts as you can’t automatically assume since you’re a “blue profile player” that VENTUS Blue is for you.

 

When it comes to shaft weight, we use numbers like 5,6 and 7 to designate the “class” it is in. If we wanted to specify the exact weight uncut we would put it on there, but we do not see the value in that. Again the classifications are there for our dealers to quickly recognize that a shaft is in the 50gram range, sub 60. Some are higher in their “class” than others, like VENTUS 5-S is closer to 60g class to achieve the 3.3 deg of torque (blue 5-S).

 

Ultimately, we do not recommend that golfers purchase a shaft based on EI profiles, specs, charts, Russ Ryden’s website, etc. What is on paper is not necessarily an accurate reflection of the design, feel or performance. A specific example would be thinking “VENTUS blue is a beefed up 757” based on EI profile or specs is inaccurate as they are exceptionally different.

 

We always recommend you get properly fit and go play golf with it to ensure you like how it feels and performs. So, in conclusion, don’t get too caught up in the numbers, go get fit, play some golf and let us know if you have any questions!

Thank you for taking the time to weigh in, and since I know most of this was directed at me I want to clarify a few things. 

I do not advocate purchasing anything blind or simply by a chart. What I attempt to advocate for is a level of transparency in marketing to help cut through either the complete lack of information or the low quality of what is available. The fact that there are still things out there like the "Velocore-less" Ventus shafts and an increasingly complex standardless system for referring to shaft stiffness means that third party EI profiles can at least help you find similarities between shafts you have had success with and others in a similar category. It is simple consumer advocacy, especially given how much of a crap shoot "getting fit" can be given there is so reasonable standard for that either. People should always try things, but that is not always possible, especially during all this COVID mess. I apologize if anything I said was factually incorrect.
 

 

[cmy]

I am told that the Ventus Red has been recently approved by Titleist’s R&D and it will be added into their lineup in 1 to 2 months.

[Bdmac79]

12 hours ago, Mario Good Times said:

Why are some pro who normally use 70 grams driver shafts using the 6-x in the ventus black ?  And doing this only for the ventus black 

For the stability that normally comes with a heavier profile.  

[Bdmac79]

5 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Thank you for taking the time to weigh in, and since I know most of this was directed at me I want to clarify a few things. 

I do not advocate purchasing anything blind or simply by a chart. What I attempt to advocate for is a level of transparency in marketing to help cut through either the complete lack of information or the low quality of what is available. The fact that there are still things out there like the "Velocore-less" Ventus shafts and an increasingly complex standardless system for referring to shaft stiffness means that third party EI profiles can at least help you find similarities between shafts you have had success with and others in a similar category. It is simple consumer advocacy, especially given how much of a crap shoot "getting fit" can be given there is so reasonable standard for that either. People should always try things, but that is not always possible, especially during all this COVID mess. I apologize if anything I said was factually incorrect.
 

 

Well said.  I appreciate your insight on all of this - facts are facts.  While fitting is always the best route to go, it is not always possible to swing and hit everything before purchasing.  Ultimately, one can never really tell whether a shaft is going to work until one hits it, but comparing profiles with the information put out by the manufacturers along with third-party testing is very helpful.  

[Fujikura Golf]

14 hours ago, Mario Good Times said:

Why are some pro who normally use 70 grams driver shafts using the 6-x in the ventus black ?  And doing this only for the ventus black 

 

We know why, but recently GolfWRX's own johnny Wunder shared some insights on this: https://www.golfwrx.com/642392/tour-insider-fujikura-ventus-the-best-fujishaft-ever/

 

and to answer your question no, it's not just ventus black that players are going (and can go) lighter and maintaining stability. That is due to VeloCore being the full-length bias core in all 3 VENTUS shafts: red, blue & black

[drbonesvt]

23 hours ago, ForTourUseOnly said:

Totally agree, everyone on tour seems to be a streaky putter DJ, Tiger, Rory you name it. Putting seems to really be the main factor on who wins each week.

How far does Bryson hit a putter 😉

[drbonesvt]

20 hours ago, Mario Good Times said:

Why are some pro who normally use 70 grams driver shafts using the 6-x in the ventus black ?  And doing this only for the ventus black 

@Fujikura Golf

 

mario , no way near tour quality, but  I’m a long time sledge hammer guy; driver shafts , ad di 8x , matrix 8xx , diamana 70tx , kuro Kagr XD 70tx , etc .   Tried lighter weights in the past and failed miserably.   Some thing about the ventus 6x , IMOP fights above its weight class , 

Edited January 19, 2021 by drbonesvt

[blakemwilde]

Looks like the Ventus has lost out to a GD IZ

[Pepperturbo]

17 hours ago, Mario Good Times said:

Why are some pro who normally use 70 grams driver shafts using the 6-x in the ventus black ?  And doing this only for the ventus black 

I would guess they can go lighter to gain SS/ball speed due to how Ventus is made.  Can't treat other aftermarket shafts the same.

 

The longer I use Ventus Red 5 "S" with Velocore the more I am smacking it sweet.  Mind you, I am 70yrs old and this past weekend we were measuring my drives at 250+.  One Par 4 380yd hole I cut the corner and covered the inside bunkers, had 90yds left.  Course, I am sure AVX ball played its "roll."  But I had never carried those inside the dog-leg bunkers. 

 

I was so enamored with that drive and others, I didn't pay proper attention to next iron shots... walked off with 75.  Damn I love this game, can't wait to play this weekend.  Thank you @Fujikura Golf...

[drbonesvt]

2 hours ago, blakemwilde said:

Looks like the Ventus has lost out to a GD IZ

Ralph Lauren getting free exposure there

[Fujikura Golf]

2 hours ago, blakemwilde said:

Looks like the Ventus has lost out to a GD IZ

 

Sometimes pros have to change things up even if it wasn't the club's fault! We understand completely.

[Fujikura Golf]

12 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Thank you for taking the time to weigh in, and since I know most of this was directed at me I want to clarify a few things. 

I do not advocate purchasing anything blind or simply by a chart. What I attempt to advocate for is a level of transparency in marketing to help cut through either the complete lack of information or the low quality of what is available. The fact that there are still things out there like the "Velocore-less" Ventus shafts and an increasingly complex standardless system for referring to shaft stiffness means that third party EI profiles can at least help you find similarities between shafts you have had success with and others in a similar category. It is simple consumer advocacy, especially given how much of a crap shoot "getting fit" can be given there is so reasonable standard for that either. People should always try things, but that is not always possible, especially during all this COVID mess. I apologize if anything I said was factually incorrect.
 

 

 

It's our pleasure to weigh in, that's what we're here for. We love chatting shafts with you guys. We understand and we appreciate the efforts and research you've done to understand these complex products.

 

We at Fuji take pride in being as informative as possible about our products without giving away any secret recipes. We also understand at times things can be confusing or contradictory as different machines and testing methods provide differing results.

 

As far as consumer advocacy we believe we're leading in that category. We have an entire section of our website dedicated to educating anyone (you guys, fitters, consumers, etc.) on graphite golf shafts: https://fujikuragolf.com/education And in conjunction with MGS we developed an entire "ShaftU" education platform https://fujikuragolf.com/shaft-university which dives deep into the mysteries of the shaft industry like no other shaft company has done before. We're biased, of course, but would challenge you to show us another shaft company doing more than we are in the information & education department. if there's something another company does well, please let us know as maybe we'd consider doing the same. We're always open to new ideas/methods.

 

We hope all of this information will be beneficial for anyone who is interested and helps guide buying decisions if golfers are unable to get fit, or want to simply try a new shaft. We will always listen to feedback from our dealers and communities like GolfWRX to improve, so please never hold back!

[blakemwilde]

1 hour ago, Fujikura Golf said:

 

Sometimes pros have to change things up even if it wasn't the club's fault! We understand completely.

What is the closest shaft in your line to the IZ, Ventus Blue?

Edited January 20, 2021 by blakemwilde
spelling

[Valtiel]

1 hour ago, Fujikura Golf said:

 

It's our pleasure to weigh in, that's what we're here for. We love chatting shafts with you guys. We understand and we appreciate the efforts and research you've done to understand these complex products.

 

We at Fuji take pride in being as informative as possible about our products without giving away any secret recipes. We also understand at times things can be confusing or contradictory as different machines and testing methods provide differing results.

 

As far as consumer advocacy we believe we're leading in that category. We have an entire section of our website dedicated to educating anyone (you guys, fitters, consumers, etc.) on graphite golf shafts: https://fujikuragolf.com/education And in conjunction with MGS we developed an entire "ShaftU" education platform https://fujikuragolf.com/shaft-university which dives deep into the mysteries of the shaft industry like no other shaft company has done before. We're biased, of course, but would challenge you to show us another shaft company doing more than we are in the information & education department. if there's something another company does well, please let us know as maybe we'd consider doing the same. We're always open to new ideas/methods.

 

We hope all of this information will be beneficial for anyone who is interested and helps guide buying decisions if golfers are unable to get fit, or want to simply try a new shaft. We will always listen to feedback from our dealers and communities like GolfWRX to improve, so please never hold back!

I wasn't aware of the ShaftU content, that is some good stuff! Props to whomever advocated to have that project put together, and for the accessible and humor tinged style of writing. 😄

I appreciate that some random stranger on a forum posting third party information and making claims about this and that can come off obnoxious, so I apologize for that. I generally trust the Fit2Score data since I have been able to verify against other third party providers, but I understand that it may not have the full picture when it comes to the specific design elements of a particular shaft. I also just have a pet peeve towards the generic "handle/mid/tip" descriptions for shafts since IMO they often create more confusion than anything else, and they often undermine some of those specific design elements that might make the shaft special. 

The backdrop of all this is the way the market has changed in the last 10 years, and more specifically the last 5 or so. The move away from the explicit "made for" shafts to what feels like a disguised version of the same concept and how the bifurcation between standard flexes and "TX" variants has been used there combined with the fact that you all are largely selling "secret recipes" as you put it...it all adds up to a consumer environment that can be very confusing and frustrating at times. To yours and Graphite Design's credit, you're really the only ones using the "TX" moniker in a way that isn't manipulative/anti consumer, and I appreciate that. But its all that mess that drives people like me to seek more independent information. There are still regular "real deal or not" threads and I remember the 25+ page mess that was the controversy around the Aldila Rogue 125 and whether or not it was made in California or Vietnam. Mix in having to decipher between R/S/X and TX flexes, Handcrafted San Diego vs. Handcrafted Prototype vs, Small Batch, OEM vs. Aftermarket etc etc and you get the idea...

I will continue reading the ShaftU content you linked, and I would love to see the care and detail that has been put into that reflected more in what can be found on any given shaft's product page. An insightful writeup on what went into the designs and why would be so much more interesting and satisfying than a vague stiffness chart and low res EI profile image. 😁

Edited January 20, 2021 by Valtiel