High handicapper--looking for swing feedback due to inconsistent contact

[TheDeanAbides]

33 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

Thanks for the follow up! I'm glad that Monte was able to confirm some of the things discussed in the thread previously and that he had some great ways for you to both see and feel what was going on and what needed to change. That is the real crux of it because any random dude on the internet with a little knowledge, me included, can point things out but knowing how to effectively get someone to feel what those things are and how to correct them is the important part. Keep at it!

Agreed! 

[TheDeanAbides]

48 minutes ago, laneholt said:

Tanner25,

 

      Glad you asked. Below is the way I see it —-

The humans HANDS( particularly it’s dominant - right or lefti )  are the MOST DOMINANT PARTS OF THE BODY and they ** control ** almost body movements and the body will always obey their commands and the body will ALWAYS position itself to accommodate the positions  it’s * dominant hands*  wish to travel /locate. You can easily prove this to yourself. Their is a direct connection between the humans brain and it dominant hands . 

    So- the brain sends instructions to its ** dominant right hand ** to PULL this lever, which is connected to the tool intended for the task , back around behind its torso so as to form a lever system necessary to propel this ball laying down below on the ground. 
     This ** PULLING ** of it’s DOMINANT HANDS stretches it’s left side LAT and BACK MUSCLES. These muscles being the **** * ONLY POWER ***** available that posses the necessary power to propel ANY object !

   Now - we are at the top and those left side and back muscles are stretched as much as possible . Ready to PULL this lever back down and around our torso with power and speed .

   Now - why would they do that ? They are just muscles with no brain and NO MEMORY. 
AH - the slightest intent of it’s DOMINANT RIGHT HAND —- TO PULL downward causes those STRETCHED MUSCLES to react and PULL BACK AROUND  because the brain instructed its DOMINANT HANDS to carry out this task and , since they are the BOSS of the body everybody obeys obediently!

   The HANDS have NO POWER , but they * control * the entire action . They must be taught their place in the golf swing that is totally opposite and foreign to their NATURAL GENETIC DESIGN. Well - you had better be ready for some work and effort BC your HANDS will NOT LISTEN. They don’t understand this thing called * GOLF SWING . It is learned conscious task that very few ever attain ,  it understanding how the human works is the KEY to success.

Thanks for your reply . I understand this sounds rather radical and most will reject it as such . I am used to it !

This doesn't really say anything about how to perform a downswing. You talk a lot about pulling of the dominant hand, Lane, but you don't sat anything about where or what direction the pull is supposed to happen. Pull straight down? Pull directly to the ball? Pull behind you? 

 

Also, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I've seen you explain what happens in the swing of someone who plays the other way around. Lefty playing righty, for example. 

[Tanner25]

Lane, Thanks, for sharing. There's different ways to do this. One of the former teachers who use to post here, Dan Whitaker once told me to stretch the lat on the BS and then unwind it from the ground up through the left side on the DS, it sounds like your two concepts are similar.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Tanner25

[TheDeanAbides]

46 minutes ago, laneholt said:

Well, Dean ,

    For a leftie it is simply a matter of reversing what I wrote! I didn’t discuss what angle / inclined plane the lever should be pulled down. Since golfs clubs are designed with an angle between the hosel and the face I just assumed that most people knew that the DS travels on an INCLINED ARC ( plane if you like) into the inside of the ball. Some on a  flatter inclined arc than others . Some on an more upright inclined plane than others . 
     I will be glad to explain how it should start if you would like ?

Good to hear from you !

Hi Lane,

 

Thanks for answering, but you misunderstood me. I'm a lefthanded golfer who swings righthanded. 

 

Also, you make far too many assumptions about people's ability to understand the downswing arc. The downswing as a counterintuitive move and most golfers with handicaps above low single figures tend to think of the move to the ball as straight down at the ball. When they learn that all good players' hands go back slightly and then straight down it feels bizarre to them when they try it. That misunderstanding leads to so many hit impulses and OTT moves. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

7 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

I'm a lefthanded golfer who swings righthanded. 

 

 

You too? I'm the same... Have you noticed anything unusual about playing that way relative to the way most natural right-handers are taught?

[TheDeanAbides]

2 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

You too? I'm the same... Have you noticed anything unusual about playing that way relative to the way most natural right-handers are taught?

There's a thread on this at the moment. I even asked Monte about it a while ago, and he just said that we're all nuts. 😆

I've never found it to be a problem. I think of the hands as a unit, and, realistically, it should help with preventing that dominant righthand hit motion. I've always had decent rhythm, but I've no idea if it's connected.  

[betarhoalphadelta]

5 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

There's a thread on this at the moment. I even asked Monte about it a while ago, and he just said that we're all nuts. 😆

I've never found it to be a problem. I think of the hands as a unit, and, realistically, it should help with preventing that dominant righthand hit motion. I've always had decent rhythm, but I've no idea if it's connected.  

 

I'm a bit odd in that my left hand is my dominant hand, but my right arm is actually stronger. I'm left eye and left leg dominant (and the left leg is stronger).

 

If I'm going to throw a ball, swing a hammer, or arm wrestle, it's my right hand. If I'm going to write, chop vegetables with a knife, or do anything else detail-oriented, it's my left. 

 

So yeah, I'm nuts.

 

As for rhythm?? Leave my dancing out of it!

[TheDeanAbides]

12 minutes ago, laneholt said:

Dean,

   You are absolutely  correct and this is why 99 % of players swing over the top and very few know WHY or can explain how not to .  Gerry Hogan has explained this for all to learn . 

      We already know that the humans HANDS are the most dominant parts of the body and I  stole this term from a friend - I call them my "" external brains "" . This first drop down back move of the HANDS that you so intelligently mentioned is critical to insuring the clubhead travels on an inside path ( inclined arc ) into the inside quadrant of the ball. This UNNNATURAL movement of the DOMINANT RIGHT HANDS --( palm upward ), ( right thumb forced back CW as far as possible)  , ( right little pinkie finger leading horizontally above the thumb .) all serve ONE VERY CRUCIAL THING TASK. They force the Trapezius tp PULL back on it's huge Scapula bone on the shoulders BC , BC , BC - if the powerful shoulders are allowed to push out toward the ball / target line those hands and arms have no choice , but to travel in that same direction - and probably 99 % of the 25 million players are doing just that . 

   Their are thousands of folks who can teach you how to make a simple BS , but not many can tell you HOW to perform the important part . Gerry Hogan wrote it down for ALL to learn from !

Thanks for your reply. Good to discuss with you !    

It seems very similar to what Monte says. Would Gerry give a different instruction for a lefthand dominant player who swings right-handed?

[Tanner25]

2 hours ago, laneholt said:

Tanner,

 

    If I may correct one small statement in your post ? I know, it is small , but I am adamant about getting it right———

    Muscles can ONLY *** stretch *** and **** pull **** .—- they  can’t * unwind * like springs . They only pull our bones to form levers . The same muscles that stretch and pull the shaft/ lever back are NOT the same muscles that are stretched to pull you back .

Great to hear from you !

    
 

 

 

Lane, Appreciate the conversation. So, what pulls you back in the downswing? The turning of the torso? So, it's stretch the lat on the BS and turn the torso on the DS?

Edited March 23, 2021 by Tanner25

[TheDeanAbides]

2 hours ago, laneholt said:

Dean,

  That is interesting . I have never heard anyone speak of it before and I took approx. 50-60 lessons from  pros in my younger days ( some top 50-100 ) and I was never told that . Can you direct me to any link or post that discussed this ? I would love to see it . 

   I can't speak for Gerry , but it is obvious to me that if the * back * of your DOMINANT LEFT HAND was kept facing upward / skyward at the very start of your DS would not the effect be the same ? Would the palm of your  RIGHT HAND be forced to face upward / skyward ?

Gerry says more conscious effort should be applied to the DOMINANT RIGHT HAND TO CONTROL THE SHAFT , but if you feel you can best accomplish this with your left then, IMO , it doesn't matter . 

     The HANDS don't have any power , but they definitely * CONTROL * the action and they MUST not be allowed to hit, throw and /or release as they are genetically designed BC --- IT IS THE TURNING OF THE TORSO THAT SQUARES THE FACE, NOT THE HANDS .

  The hands must be kept UP and forced to act in a manner that is against their genetic design. 

Enjoyed discussing with you .

Maybe it's semantic. I mean that Monte often talks about controlling the wrist conditions - having correct wrist condition on the way back and at transition allows the body to organise itself correctly. Yes, the wrists are controlled by the hands, but it's very similar. 

The more I read the more it sounds like what Monte teaches (referencing your reply regarding my left hand). Monte teaches in the No Turn Cast videos that deliberately putting our wrists into ulnar deviation and flexion at the start of the downswing will have us arrive perfectly at impact. There are clear parallels.

[Tanner25]

4 hours ago, laneholt said:

Tanner ,

 

     Stand erect , extend your arms straight out in front of your torso palms facing upward and pretend you are holding a plate of cookie in you right palm  . Now - without moving the position of  your feet rotate that plate of cookie back around behind you and offer one  to that person standing directly behind you .

    Now - try this with your LEFT HAND . Did you find it somewhat  more awkward ? 

Please  don't drop them . I love cookies .

   Question - did your shoulders turn / rotate ? Was it necessary to think about your SHOULDERS TURNING ? Did the movement / intent of your hands cause your torso to ROTATE  ? How can anyone make the shoulder turn seem so difficult ?   

 

Sounds good, rotate the shoulders on the backswing by putting the hands back. How does the downswing work? 

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

This does look a little different, huh?

 

 

[YouDaHamHider]

2 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

This does look a little different, huh?

 

 

Man I wish I lived close enough to get a lesson with Monte. Your swing looks great! Your pre Monte lesson swing was very similar to mine with hips not clearing and shoulders spinning out a bit. What feel are you using to get the hips that open if you don't mind me asking? Or are you not really thinking about the hips and they're clearing out as a result of other stuff you've fixed? 

[betarhoalphadelta]

13 hours ago, YouDaHamHider said:

Man I wish I lived close enough to get a lesson with Monte. Your swing looks great! Your pre Monte lesson swing was very similar to mine with hips not clearing and shoulders spinning out a bit. What feel are you using to get the hips that open if you don't mind me asking? Or are you not really thinking about the hips and they're clearing out as a result of other stuff you've fixed? 

 

Yeah, everyone was suggesting that I do the video lesson route, but knowing myself I don't think I learn very well that way. So I waited until I felt more comfortable with the local COVID numbers to go in person because it's convenient to have him local. That said, I've heard good things about video lessons and if you're more natural learning that way it might be something to look into. 

 

Truth is, I'm absolutely thinking about the hips at this point, and the hips in relation to the shoulders. It's the "keeping the back to the target longer" idea. 

 

Try getting into your normal setup position with your arms across your shoulders (no club, or holding the club shaft across your chest). Draw back to your backswing position. Now... Without letting your shoulders rotate at all (or very little), rotate your hips--pulling the left hip back, not moving the right forward--to your max range of motion. That's the feel I'm looking for at the start of the downswing. Rotating the hips up through the sternum, but not letting the shoulders move at all. 

 

Note--Monte was very clear that this starts with the slow-speed pitching drill, and it's not going to be easy to integrate into a full swing. I didn't post a full swing because although it looks a lot better than it used to, it's not there yet. But that's day 1 at the range, so I can't expect it yet. He had recommended doing 50% or more of your swings being that slow-speed pitching swing, because it'll take a lot of work to integrate it full-speed. 

[YouDaHamHider]

2 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Yeah, everyone was suggesting that I do the video lesson route, but knowing myself I don't think I learn very well that way. So I waited until I felt more comfortable with the local COVID numbers to go in person because it's convenient to have him local. That said, I've heard good things about video lessons and if you're more natural learning that way it might be something to look into. 

 

Truth is, I'm absolutely thinking about the hips at this point, and the hips in relation to the shoulders. It's the "keeping the back to the target longer" idea. 

 

Try getting into your normal setup position with your arms across your shoulders (no club, or holding the club shaft across your chest). Draw back to your backswing position. Now... Without letting your shoulders rotate at all (or very little), rotate your hips--pulling the left hip back, not moving the right forward--to your max range of motion. That's the feel I'm looking for at the start of the downswing. Rotating the hips up through the sternum, but not letting the shoulders move at all. 

 

Note--Monte was very clear that this starts with the slow-speed pitching drill, and it's not going to be easy to integrate into a full swing. I didn't post a full swing because although it looks a lot better than it used to, it's not there yet. But that's day 1 at the range, so I can't expect it yet. He had recommended doing 50% or more of your swings being that slow-speed pitching swing, because it'll take a lot of work to integrate it full-speed. 

Thanks, I really appreciate you sharing your experience. I've had video lessons before and I just don't get as much from them as a live lesson. Hopefully in the next couple of years Monte will do another clinic in the UK which I can attend. Good luck with the swing changes, it's obvious from your video that you're heading down the right path. 

[TheDeanAbides]

59 minutes ago, YouDaHamHider said:

Thanks, I really appreciate you sharing your experience. I've had video lessons before and I just don't get as much from them as a live lesson. Hopefully in the next couple of years Monte will do another clinic in the UK which I can attend. Good luck with the swing changes, it's obvious from your video that you're heading down the right path. 

Monte has a clinic in London this July. 

[YouDaHamHider]

3 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Monte has a clinic in London this July. 

Thanks for the heads up. I missed that being advertised as I just presumed with the way things have been going this year a UK clinic would have been out of the question. 

[TheDeanAbides]

8 hours ago, YouDaHamHider said:

Thanks for the heads up. I missed that being advertised as I just presumed with the way things have been going this year a UK clinic would have been out of the question. 

Still not guaranteed to happen with the way covid has been handled here. 🤦🏻

[betarhoalphadelta]

A few stills from my range session today...

 

 

These were both full swings. They're still nowhere near perfect. I'm not sure I'm getting my shoulders open enough to match the hips. 

 

But a few of the things I noticed from Tuesday was that I was keeping my left knee bent all through impact as opposed to straightening and opening the left side, and that the big difference between my half-swing drills and my full swings was that I was not early extending on my drill swings but I was on my full swings. The lack of left side extension was causing me to keep the bent left elbow through impact, which I know I need to clean up. I was focusing on left side extension today, and when I watch the slow-mo of the full swings DTL, I wasn't early extending on my full swings today. 

 

Still a huge amount of inconsistency. But I really see it going the right direction. Contact on the drill swings is so much more pure. It hasn't made it to the full swings yet, but I can't exactly expect it to after two range sessions. Eventually I'm going to have to figure out my toe contact problem though...

 

Playing Saturday AM. I don't want to take the full swing to the course, because I worry it's WAY too inconsistent. Oddly, I'm thinking about limiting myself to 3/4 swings. Seems my 7i swings at 3/4 length are still ~150 yards and making great contact and hitting it straight. That's good enough for me lol...

 

[TheDeanAbides]

With irons a 3/4 swing is a full swing. 

[golfsticks]

1 hour ago, laneholt said:

We will ONLY have time to focus one thought and that has to be preprogrammed before we take the shaft back BC we certainly won't know it happened while it is happening and / or  until many milliseconds after it already occurred.

 

Good one laneholt.   Everything should be pretty much a mentally settled preview before addressing the ball, and from there it's like watching my favorite movie unfold where I am the star that doesn't need a ticket to watch.

[TheDeanAbides]

2 hours ago, laneholt said:

Dean,

   You mentioned several things you are working on --  left knee bend -- early extension -- bent elbow at impact --  toe contact .For your future benefit i would suggest you pick out ONLY ONE of those that you consider the most important BC the Human brain can ONLY sort out and perform one task in 2/10 seconds of time allotted for the DS . That choice is yours , but if  you don't mind I would pick out one of those that seems most important to me - toe contact . From the many lessons i have given !

    The most difficult to learn above all else is to CONTACT THE BALL IN THE FACE ! All that other stuff is so unnecessary until you can accomplish that . The clubface is said to travel during the BS and DS some 16 feet, much of it out of our eyesight , that is quite a distance to hit a small golf ball with a small golf club. If  this is so , then what parts of the body should we look to that would be best suited to guide that face into the ball ? We certainly will not be able to see the face prior to or during impact . Is it the knees , hips , elbows , legs, ????

    We will ONLY have time to focus one thought and that has to be preprogrammed before we take the shaft back BC we certainly won't know it happened while it is happening and / or  until many milliseconds after it already occurred.

   What parts of the body would you use to toss coins close to a line , throw darts with ? 

You're not talking about me, Lane. Wrong name, my friend. 

 

The OP is working with Monte now - I'm sure he doesn't need you confusing him. 

[TheDeanAbides]

1 minute ago, laneholt said:

Dean,

 

      My apologies . This was meant for Beta . Sorry !  

Not a problem. I humbly suggest that now he's working with Monte that your comments will only add confusion though. Let him have his process now he's paid his money and made his choice.

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 minute ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Not a problem. I humbly suggest that now he's working with Monte that your comments will only add confusion though. Let him have his process now he's paid his money and made his choice.

 

LOL... I'm not worried about Lane confusing me. The mental picture in my head after each of his posts is something akin to this...

 

 

[TheDeanAbides]

4 minutes ago, laneholt said:

Mr. Dean Abides ,

 

     If Beta is working exclusively with Monte , then why is he still posting videos and statements ? Why are you still replying to him ? I certainly wish  him great success and I don't suppose he will be posting any longer . 

I suspect because he wants to share his progress in his thread? I'm replying to him from the context of what Monte teaches. There's no need to get all huffy. 🙂

[TheDeanAbides]

1 minute ago, laneholt said:

Beta,

   If you perceive my FACTS and TRUTHS as " blathering " , then I will gladly take being called "  blathering "as the ultimate compliment ! And thank you so much for that ! 

Good luck , Sir ! 

    

Let's look at it this way, Lane. You have nearly 1000 posts here and on only 39 occasions anyone felt the need to thank you or respond. I think that you actually have some good stuff to share, but the way you do it by shouting about FACTS and TRUTH just clouds your message. If you were less pushy you might actually help some people and make friends. Tis up to you. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

As it relates to the toe contact, I suspect the last thing I want to do is rely on a swing thought to "guide" the face into the ball. Pretty sure almost every instructor on the planet would say that's a bad, bad thing. 

 

What I'll need to do is figure out whether the toe contact is coming from:

1. Inconsistency in the forward/back [relative to target line] contact point of my swing relative to constant setup.
2. Inconsistency in my setup, i.e. not always being the same posture and distance from the ball.

Once I get this move more ingrained, the next step IMHO will be alignment rods to see if I get more consistent contact by ensuring that I always set up the same distance from the ball. I suspect I'm not consistent there. If it turns out I'm still getting inconsistent face contact despite a constant setup, I've seen some drills with alignment rods parallel to the target line that will give feedback every time I swing too far out or in. 

 

But that won't be useful until I get the move more ingrained, because it's still so "new" on full swings that I'm not consistent anyway. 

 

And if I try alignment sticks and drills and still can't get it? Well... Back to Monte to fix me again  😉 

 

As for why I'm still posting? Dean had it right, it's mainly about sharing progress rather than looking for tips. You all seem to have enjoyed jumping into this journey with me, and I don't want to leave a cliffhanger ending! 

[golfsticks]

18 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Let's look at it this way, Lane. You have nearly 1000 posts here and on only 39 occasions anyone felt the need to thank you or respond.

 

....and Monte has 19,570 posts with only 1,520 likes over a 12 year span, about a 8% tally, compared to laneholts 4% tally over fewer years, and your 55% tally,  if my fuzzy math is correct.    Looks like Dean is lesson boss. 

[golfsticks]

No problem, but I was nervous about my math accuracy...lol.... but my point was using 'likes' or the other available response options as a quality metric seems rather silly to me. 

[Valtiel]

13 hours ago, golfsticks said:

 

....and Monte has 19,570 posts with only 1,520 likes over a 12 year span, about a 8% tally, compared to laneholts 4% tally over fewer years, and your 55% tally,  if my fuzzy math is correct.    Looks like Dean is lesson boss. 

"Likes" as they exist today have only been around for a very short time, whereas Monte has been around for decades. I would argue this actually shows how much his input is valued to have so many in such a short time. 
 

12 hours ago, laneholt said:

Golfsticks,

 

    Thank you for math figures , but I suspect that 39 number might be a little high . I have been criticized , cursed , and blasphemed , but i keep on posting what i perceive as FACTS and TRUTHS and I fully  understand that THEORY and OPINION have become perceived as being factual these days . And why not , it is constantly being fed to players in every venue  .

    Wouldn't we Humans be special if were  capable of performing  just  1/2 of the  swing advice we are given in 2/10 seconds of the DS  ? If ONLY I could perform 2 of those in 2/10 seconds , but I know I can't . It sucks just being a normal human !

Thanks for your reply .  

     

At the risk of going too off topic, I want to address what you said here in bold. You may feel like you are criticized and cursed by people because of the "truths" you are telling or that you are going against the grain when it comes to modern swing coaching etc etc, but the reality in my opinion is more simple. The way you choose to communicate your "truths" is REALLY difficult to understand and follow most of the time. We agree on a number of key fundamentals, especially when it comes to the hands, but in trying to share them you come across almost like you're sharing a riddle or a puzzle to be decoded, and I think most people just find that exhausting. Some poor guy comes here for help and he is hit with "DOMINANT HANDS, CORTICAL HOMUNCULUS, UNDENIABLE PREPROGRAMMED HUMAN GENETICS!" when all he wants to do is stop shanking the ball. 

One of the most important qualities in a good teacher is the ability to break down difficult concepts to make them digestible and understandable to a student, not to confound them with what sounds like the coded language of an ancient sage who has lost half his mind. 😅

I mean that with all due respect, because I believe the only difference between the criticism/cursing you have received and an actual healthy debate about ideas is how you generally choose to communicate yours.