Is it better to draw but flip, or fade but maintain lag?

[hardcaliber]

Title says it all.  I've spent countless hours trying to learn how to hit a draw consistently but it seems like I just have to flip the face closed in order to turn it over.

 

On the other hand, if I focus on lag or compressing the ball, I can get it to work after a while but it usually comes out as a fade or push.

 

I think I understand the ball flight rules and what I theoretically need to do but after years and years I just can't seem to do it.

 

So if I have to choose to live with one flaw, which is it?  I know a fade isn't always a flaw per se, but it does seem like most teachers I've worked with implicitly think a draw is more fundamentally sound but at the same don't want a flip move either.

 

[cwilk]

Whichever one you can control and score best with (I’d bet on the push/fade). 

[b.mattay]

A flip isn't great and trying to lag the club isn't great either. Play whatever shot shape you hit more solidly! 

[Celebros]

What happens if you swing without either thought in mind?  Is there one that you naturally tend toward?  If so, I would go with that one.

[scooterhd2]

hit a fade from the inside and you are golden. 

[hardcaliber]

Stock shot without trying to manipulate things is definitely a fade or push.  Slightly outside path with club face square or slightly open.  Not the greatest ball striker but I can groove it ok with the fade if I've been practicing.

 

Whenever I get motivated and take lessons, stock advice is always to try to turn it over.  Spent lot of time and effort over the years trying to turn it over.  I can do it, but its flippy.

 

At my age and skill level I just want to be consistent.  I'm serious about getting better but at the same time need to be realistic too.

 

Need to either find a coach who can get me to understand how to hit the draw properly, or maybe find one who can just help me hit the fade more solidly and work with what I got.

[MonteScheinblum]

There is an undiagnosed swing issue.

[HarringtonREI]

31 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

There is an undiagnosed swing issue.

This 100%.... couldn't have said it better. Something has a hitch causing that feeling for both the fade and draw. I wouldn't say either of those are descriptions of a good "feeling" to be trying to reproduce. Albeit one may be easier to reproduce, but Flipping for a draw, or trying to hold on to lag, are generally both terms associated with manipulating/compensating for something elsewhere in the swing. 

[pingfool]

Sounds like asking for opinions on lesser of two evils

 

work on your short game is the best advice for those looking for perfect swing. Go with what you’ve got and get up and down. Hit a few gir and make a couple putts. 
 

[hardcaliber]

59 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

There is an undiagnosed swing issue.

 

Yes, more than one I'm sure!

 

Love your vids by the way!  No turn cast has gotten me out of a funk more than once!

 

 

[hardcaliber]

27 minutes ago, HarringtonREI said:

This 100%.... couldn't have said it better. Something has a hitch causing that feeling for both the fade and draw. I wouldn't say either of those are descriptions of a good "feeling" to be trying to reproduce. Albeit one may be easier to reproduce, but Flipping for a draw, or trying to hold on to lag, are generally both terms associated with manipulating/compensating for something elsewhere in the swing. 

 

Thanks for your thoughts, always thought lag/shaft lean/compressing the ball was a good thing.  Those are kind of different words for the same action in my mind by maybe I'm confused.  Its a good feeling when it happens anyway, but maybe you are saying it should be something that happens naturally? 

[HarringtonREI]

Yes, in general as monte will tell you, those things are generally a result of good swing mechanics through out and you wont have to, or frankly really be able to try to achieve those things. It happens on its own. With that said..... 

 

These terms are all kind of interesting terms except shaft lean, for things that sometimes are confused with whats really going on. 

 

"lag" is generally not really "lag" at all its an illusion usually from a face on view of the shaft shallowing out, the shallower and flatter it lays down behind a player the more appearance of lag there will be (face on view). Shallowing is another thing people get confused on. But for the sake of this topic, if youre trying to create lag, or hold on to wrist or arm angles that give appearance of lag, thats a problem. And will usually not end well. 

 

shaft lean (if referring to handle ahead of ball at impact), in the right way, is typically a result of some good things happening in the swing. But you can get appearance of shaft lean im sure with incorrect moves elsewhere also. lag in transition in down swing, is something very different than shaft lean, one or the other, or both, can be present in good swings, and bad swings. 

 

Compressing the ball is another term used on golf channel guys trying to describe a well struck iron shot with, downward angle of attack, and the feeling of compressing the ball in to the ground, or between ground and club that squeezes it, even though thats not whats happening in reality at all. Simply the golf ball compresses any time its hit with a metal club. even very slow swing speeds "compress" the ball. Compressing the ball again, isnt something you should be trying to do, it happens no matter what. The feeling of a well struck iron however is a good thing, so long as you get there with the right moves and can consistently do it. 

 

Your post refers to drawing and flipping, or holding lag and fading? Draws vs fades, generally have nothing to do with lag, compression or shaft lean. As (not always) those should naturally occur wether or not you're fading or drawing with a sound swing. So there could be some confusion yes. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

11 hours ago, hardcaliber said:

Title says it all.  I've spent countless hours trying to learn how to hit a draw consistently but it seems like I just have to flip the face closed in order to turn it over.

 

On the other hand, if I focus on lag or compressing the ball, I can get it to work after a while but it usually comes out as a fade or push.

 

I think I understand the ball flight rules and what I theoretically need to do but after years and years I just can't seem to do it.

 

So if I have to choose to live with one flaw, which is it?  I know a fade isn't always a flaw per se, but it does seem like most teachers I've worked with implicitly think a draw is more fundamentally sound but at the same don't want a flip move either.

 

Here's an experiment for you. Set up  left of your target, open the face a bit to your stance line. Swing away without thought and see if it fades. Do the opposite if you want to draw it. If it doesn't work, you have a serious swing flaw that needs to be addressed. You might learn one way is much easier for you to just set up a bit differently and swing naturally or you may need to make some swing changes. It's also quite possible your setup fundamentals aren't solid. 

 

[A.Princey]

Taking the club back more inside will definitely get your path out enough through the ball, one just has to release the club fully at impact to obtain a square to closed face. Draw, voila. A wider stance and quieter lower body should help release the club and turn the ball over.

Edited January 31, 2021 by A.Princey

[pinhigh27]

You probably swing too far right and when you hold it off it pushes but has a little more lean. 

[J.Bex]

On 1/30/2021 at 2:23 AM, HarringtonREI said:

lag" is generally not really "lag" at all its an illusion usually from a face on view of the shaft shallowing out, the shallower and flatter it lays down behind a player the more appearance of lag there will be (face on view). Shallowing is another thing people get confused on. But for the sake of this topic, if youre trying to create lag, or hold on to wrist or arm angles that give appearance of lag, thats a problem. And will usually not end well. 

Yes. And thanks @MonteScheinblum in one of the NTC videos for commenting on poster child Sergio Garcia's "lag" that TV commentators and people always drool over in slow-mo vids.  He doesn't have superhuman lag or wrist flexibility, just a very laid back club coming down (cast A if you will).  IMO trying to force lag is unnecessary.

 

That said, OP if you're consistent and enjoying golf with a fade, and it comes more naturally without feeling like you're manipulating things, there's nothing wrong with sticking with it.  Personally, to get workability blood flowing, I like to hit little punch draws and punch fades on the range, as if I'm carving/curving them out of tree trouble, then work up to the full swing.

[hardcaliber]

On 1/30/2021 at 1:23 AM, HarringtonREI said:

Yes, in general as monte will tell you, those things are generally a result of good swing mechanics through out and you wont have to, or frankly really be able to try to achieve those things. It happens on its own. With that said..... 

 

These terms are all kind of interesting terms except shaft lean, for things that sometimes are confused with whats really going on. 

 

"lag" is generally not really "lag" at all its an illusion usually from a face on view of the shaft shallowing out, the shallower and flatter it lays down behind a player the more appearance of lag there will be (face on view). Shallowing is another thing people get confused on. But for the sake of this topic, if youre trying to create lag, or hold on to wrist or arm angles that give appearance of lag, thats a problem. And will usually not end well. 

 

shaft lean (if referring to handle ahead of ball at impact), in the right way, is typically a result of some good things happening in the swing. But you can get appearance of shaft lean im sure with incorrect moves elsewhere also. lag in transition in down swing, is something very different than shaft lean, one or the other, or both, can be present in good swings, and bad swings. 

 

Compressing the ball is another term used on golf channel guys trying to describe a well struck iron shot with, downward angle of attack, and the feeling of compressing the ball in to the ground, or between ground and club that squeezes it, even though thats not whats happening in reality at all. Simply the golf ball compresses any time its hit with a metal club. even very slow swing speeds "compress" the ball. Compressing the ball again, isnt something you should be trying to do, it happens no matter what. The feeling of a well struck iron however is a good thing, so long as you get there with the right moves and can consistently do it. 

 

Your post refers to drawing and flipping, or holding lag and fading? Draws vs fades, generally have nothing to do with lag, compression or shaft lean. As (not always) those should naturally occur wether or not you're fading or drawing with a sound swing. So there could be some confusion yes. 

Thanks for the super thoughtful reply. I understand that draws and fades shouldn’t be related to lag or lack thereof, but I was relating them just due to the fact that in my personal circumstances currently, there seems to be a cause and effect that if I try to create lag, the result is a fade. 

 

So my motivation in posting was the dilemma that when I’m trying to do something supposedly good (lag) something bad happens (fade). On the other hand when doing something bad (flip), something good happens (draw). That’s an oversimplification of course, I know that a fade or draw isn’t always inherently good or bad. 
 

I think you guys have helped me understand that I may be over thinking things and trying to force certain positions instead of just making a coordinated athletic movement. Need to back off the lessons for a while and just simplify things a little. 
 

 

[hardcaliber]

On 1/31/2021 at 5:40 AM, pinhigh27 said:

You probably swing too far right and when you hold it off it pushes but has a little more lean. 

Yes, that’s very insightful. When I try to hit a draw, I do tend to over exaggerate the inside to out path. 

[ElliotBradleyGolf]

IMO you have two options. 

 

A) test both methods (preferably with a launch monitor) and whichever gives you the tightest shot pattern at a given yardage is the one you should go with.

 

B) go and get lessons with a pro who can help you stabilise the face with your draw pattern.

[thejazzmarauder]

Draws are of the devil