It's time, Pro's (and others) should get relief from divots...

[Golferpaul]

On 3/7/2021 at 11:49 PM, straightshot7 said:

Agreed except it may add more delays and rules confusion. 

What constitutes a divot? What if it's old and almost recovered?

 

I can see more calling over officials to determine if the player should receive relief or not.

True.  That's why the rule shouldn't be about "in a divot".  The rule should allow you to move the ball a putterhead for any reason while in the fairway.  Problem solved.

[NorthTexasGlfr]

2 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

True.  That's why the rule shouldn't be about "in a divot".  The rule should allow you to move the ball a putterhead for any reason while in the fairway.  Problem solved.

 

 

[Pnwpingi210]

2 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

True.  That's why the rule shouldn't be about "in a divot".  The rule should allow you to move the ball a putterhead for any reason while in the fairway.  Problem solved.

Why just the fairway.  Let’s do the same in the rough and the bunkers.  

[AZBRONCFAN]

3 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

True.  That's why the rule shouldn't be about "in a divot".  The rule should allow you to move the ball a putterhead for any reason while in the fairway.  Problem solved.

What is fairway and what isn't fairway? 

[NorthTexasGlfr]

14 minutes ago, AZBRONCFAN said:

What is fairway and what isn't fairway? 

 

I believe the official Rules of Golf clearly define what is and what isn't fairway. 

 

Not really, lol. 

[Nickb333]

10 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

True.  That's why the rule shouldn't be about "in a divot".  The rule should allow you to move the ball a putterhead for any reason while in the fairway.  Problem solved.

Na, you left out one important and oft used word. Reasonable. Lift and place anytime its reasonable. Pretty sure that word solves all the problems. 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

If you MUST then give a player one free relief per round for any shot resting in the fairway. They can use one free relief if they land in a divot. But If they land in a divot a second time during the same round then play it as it lies.

 

For the record I don't think there needs to be any divot relief but that's how I'd propose to solve it if forced to come up with a relief solution. 

[DCDeac]

Yeah, the one free relief per round idea seems like the only realistic option.  You can't make it a judgment call, and playing it down is fundamental to the game of golf. I'd also add you can't clean it and you can only move it a tee length or a putter head or something tiny.  A lot of courses give relief for sprinklers in the way of a putt from the fringe now, I feel like that's a similar accommodation - it's just easier to identify a sprinkler head as a manmade object versus a divot.  

 

Another reason I'd be ok with it despite being fairly traditional when it comes to golf is that divots are one of those issues that tend to impact amateurs more than pros.  As has been pointed out, most pros land in a sand-filled divot on an immaculately conditioned course, and 9 times out of 10 they hit a decent shot.  If you play average golf courses with the typical idiot public, you get the occasional horrible 2 inch ditch with zero sand, or you get overplayed narrow fairways that are covered in divots.  There's a hyper exclusive country club near me that has a local rule on a couple holes that you get relief from divots just because the fairways funnel balls to a general area and it's an uphill approach, meaning that if you roll into a divot that hasn't been filled you're basically losing a full shot.  For USGA events they play it down and it sucks, feels like you have a 25% chance of getting screwed and guys definitely aim for the rough because it's such a risk.   An official, even optional rule of one slight move per round without cleaning seems fair enough, plus it's not really possible to take advantage of it.  

 

The underlying theme is that the rules of golf consistently allow relief for man-made objects and impediments.  They also now allow for the repair of any and all blemishes on greens made be other players.  The only reason divots aren't covered is the difficulty in assessing them paired with the infrequency of the issue occurring.  The "one divot relief per round" rule is a pretty elegant fix, and imho would even encourage more players to play by the rules in general instead of using lcp all the time with friends. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Golferpaul]

15 hours ago, AZBRONCFAN said:

What is fairway and what isn't fairway? 

However the USGA decides to define it.  It's not difficult.   They did it for greens.

[Golferpaul]

14 hours ago, NorthTexasGlfr said:

 

I believe the official Rules of Golf clearly define what is and what isn't fairway. 

 

Not really, lol. 

Are you aware that the Rules of Golf change every year?  It's quite easy to define another part of the course like they have for tees and greens.

[Pnwpingi210]

Why do you get free relief from a divot in the fairway?

 

why not free relief from ball below/above your feet in fariway? 

im not sure I understand the expectation that one gets relief from divots.  Play it as it lies is a big part of the golf rules, and divots existed then just as they do now

[ThinkingPlus]

Just now, Pnwpingi210 said:

Why do you get free relief from a divot in the fairway?

 

why not free relief from ball below/above your feet in fariway? 

im not sure I understand the expectation that one gets relief from divots.  Play it as it lies is a big part of the golf rules, and divots existed then just as they do now

Entitlement culture...

[Pnwpingi210]

4 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Entitlement culture...

I get it.

 

i also find most divots arent hard to hit out off, the problem is when the back of the the ball is resting against the back of the grass in the divot and that doesn’t seem to happen often.

 

hitting a ball 3 inches above or below your feet is far more impactful in my opinion.

Edited July 22 by Pnwpingi210

[Carson33]

2 hours ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Why do you get free relief from a divot in the fairway?

 

why not free relief from ball below/above your feet in fariway? 

im not sure I understand the expectation that one gets relief from divots.  Play it as it lies is a big part of the golf rules, and divots existed then just as they do now

I would agree with you if the governing bodies did not cave and allow tapping down of imperfections on the greens, remove loose impediments in a bunker or penalty area, drop a ball in the fairway after hitting OB, etc, etc.

 

I am “old school” and have been playing the game for 45 years. I would be fine with the “play it as it lies” mentality. Suck it up and move on. I just do not understand how this (ball in a divot) is the point that the USGA and R&A dig their heels in.

 

You are supposed to be penalized for hitting into a bunker or penalty area, yet they allow you to move sticks, pinecones or rocks from around your ball, but if you hit it right down the middle of the fairway and end up in a fresh divot from the group ahead and have no way of advancing it to the green, well that’s just “rub of the green”. It just doesn’t make sense.

 

I play competitive golf and know how to hit out of a divot, but there are some times where you just have no chance.

[DCDeac]

2 hours ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Why do you get free relief from a divot in the fairway?

 

why not free relief from ball below/above your feet in fariway? 

im not sure I understand the expectation that one gets relief from divots.  Play it as it lies is a big part of the golf rules, and divots existed then just as they do now

 

Let's say we're playing a match and you're up 1 on me headed to #18.  We both hit perfect drives right down the middle, but you get me by 5 yards.  So I putt my ball right behind yours.  I have you mark it so I can play my next shot, then I take out a crazy big 64* wedge with 0 degrees of bounce and rip a cavern out of the ground and advance my ball 30 yards.   I snag the divot and toss it into a lake.  

 

Should you be able to hit your next shot on a nice lie in the fairway or should you have to replace your ball exactly where your mark is in the middle of the divot where you have no chance of hitting anything other than the top quarter of the ball?  Is that similar to having a shot above your feet in the fairway?

[betarhoalphadelta]

18 minutes ago, DCDeac said:

 

Let's say we're playing a match and you're up 1 on me headed to #18.  We both hit perfect drives right down the middle, but you get me by 5 yards.  So I putt my ball right behind yours.  I have you mark it so I can play my next shot, then I take out a crazy big 64* wedge with 0 degrees of bounce and rip a cavern out of the ground and advance my ball 30 yards.   I snag the divot and toss it into a lake.  

 

Should you be able to hit your next shot on a nice lie in the fairway or should you have to replace your ball exactly where your mark is in the middle of the divot where you have no chance of hitting anything other than the top quarter of the ball?  Is that similar to having a shot above your feet in the fairway?

 

Rule 1.2a. Pretty sure any referee would disqualify you for serious misconduct for trying to pull a stunt like this. 

 

Although you're probably going to lose the hole even if you're not DQ'd, because I'm hitting 2 out of a divot, and you're now laying 3 / hitting 4 from 30 yards in front of me. I could take an unplayable and I'd still only be hitting 3 from a nice fairway lie. 

[Pnwpingi210]

36 minutes ago, Carson33 said:

I would agree with you if the governing bodies did not cave and allow tapping down of imperfections on the greens, remove loose impediments in a bunker or penalty area, drop a ball in the fairway after hitting OB, etc, etc.

 

I am “old school” and have been playing the game for 45 years. I would be fine with the “play it as it lies” mentality. Suck it up and move on. I just do not understand how this (ball in a divot) is the point that the USGA and R&A dig their heels in.

 

You are supposed to be penalized for hitting into a bunker or penalty area, yet they allow you to move sticks, pinecones or rocks from around your ball, but if you hit it right down the middle of the fairway and end up in a fresh divot from the group ahead and have no way of advancing it to the green, well that’s just “rub of the green”. It just doesn’t make sense.

 

I play competitive golf and know how to hit out of a divot, but there are some times where you just have no chance.

You get to remove loose impediments on the fairway as well.  Your not touching your ball or the the lie underneath it.  Therfore moving loose impediment is not the same as improving you lie..

 

its also false that just because you land in a fresh divot you can’t advance the ball.  That’s just not true.

[Pnwpingi210]

26 minutes ago, DCDeac said:

 

Let's say we're playing a match and you're up 1 on me headed to #18.  We both hit perfect drives right down the middle, but you get me by 5 yards.  So I putt my ball right behind yours.  I have you mark it so I can play my next shot, then I take out a crazy big 64* wedge with 0 degrees of bounce and rip a cavern out of the ground and advance my ball 30 yards.   I snag the divot and toss it into a lake.  

 

Should you be able to hit your next shot on a nice lie in the fairway or should you have to replace your ball exactly where your mark is in the middle of the divot where you have no chance of hitting anything other than the top quarter of the ball?  Is that similar to having a shot above your feet in the fairway?

I’m confused.  You’re somehow able to take a 5 yard divot with a 64 degree wedge?  Thats 15 feet.  

 

If you land 2 inches behind my ball, I have to mark, you take a divot and not replace you divot.  One of two things happen.  One of us uses the courses sand/grass seeds to repair the course.  Or I just hit it to mess with you.  As long as the back of the ball is not resting up against the back of the divot and grass I’ll be ok.  The goal is to hit the ball first….

[Pnwpingi210]

9 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Rule 1.2a. Pretty sure any referee would disqualify you for serious misconduct for trying to pull a stunt like this. 

 

Although you're probably going to lose the hole even if you're not DQ'd, because I'm hitting 2 out of a divot, and you're now laying 3 / hitting 4 from 30 yards in front of me. I could take an unplayable and I'd still only be hitting 3 from a nice fairway lie. 

lol.   I love the absurd scenarios that get used to support the changing play it as it lies.

[ThinkingPlus]

20 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

I’m confused.  You’re somehow able to take a 5 yard divot with a 64 degree wedge?  Thats 15 feet.  

 

If you land 2 inches behind my ball, I have to mark, you take a divot and not replace you divot.  One of two things happen.  One of us uses the courses sand/grass seeds to repair the course.  Or I just hit it to mess with you.  As long as the back of the ball is not resting up against the back of the divot and grass I’ll be ok.  The goal is to hit the ball first….

He putted the ball up to just behind your ball then took the divot with the wedge. Now lying 3 hitting 4 from 30 yards up.

[ShortGolfer]

I learned the rules of golf as a pre-teen in the 1970s, so play as it lies is ingrained in my golf thinking.

Hitting the ball out of junk is one of the strengths of my game, so I like the rule the way it is right now.  😀

Yesterday I hit my drive into a grass bunker, sparsely filled with foot high weeds.  I pulled my gap wedge and hit it out, just missing another bunker. 😆

 

But, I'm learning to take penalty strokes.  I duffed a shot on a damp tilted lie.  I didn't realize the ground was that wet.  So I took stroke and distance and chose a higher lofted iron to make a much better swing.

[Pnwpingi210]

2 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

He putted the ball up to just behind your ball then took the divot with the wedge. Now lying 3 hitting 4 from 30 yards up.

Oh yeah.  
 

He still loses.  Anyone that has to resort that isn’t going to win the hole, and isn’t good enough to putt the ball close enough to mine for 15 feet over fairway grass.

 

I don’t buy I’m only one up in this scenario unless I’m playing lefthanded and sick

[80sFredriksson]

If anything less reliefs should be allowed play it as it lies or take a unplayable imo

[shortshadow]

Haven't read the whole thread...I assume this has been mentioned...

 

But addressing the reasonable argument of " how often do you find yourself in a divot on the course" argument....

 

It's obvious, not by just the TV showing it, but common sense...these are professionals with good striking and placement.  Have you seen the 300 yard area of a fairway in a PGA event?  There are divots everywhere.  Why?  Because these guys are placing it there...because they can.

 

I have no opinion on the matter, but there are tonnes of divots at the 300 yard line in fairways of PGA events.

 

It's almost like asking a Nascar driver to win with random speedbumps...seems odd.

 

I assume there is room for a reasonable rule on this. But I also assume it will get milked for as much outrage as it possibly can.

[SlothofDespond]

The folks against relief from divots strike me like the most miserable people to deal with on basically anything ever.

 

Oh no, golf will be fractionally easier when people aren't screwed because they happened to hit the ball where someone else did yesterday. Oh no, someone will have to craft some words to define divot and fairway like with basically ever other thing in golf and sports. The world will end.

 

Between this and the nonsense about nerfing the ball it's high time for golf to have a second rulemaking body for people who aren't hardwired ancients.

Edited July 23 by SlothofDespond

[ThinkingPlus]

14 minutes ago, SlothofDespond said:

The folks against relief from divots strike me like the most miserable people to deal with on basically anything ever.

 

Oh no, golf will be fractionally easier when people aren't screwed because they happened to hit the ball where someone else did yesterday. Oh no, someone will have to craft some words to define divot and fairway like with basically ever other thing in golf and sports. The world will end.

 

Between this and the nonsense about nerfing the ball it's high time for golf to have a second rulemaking body for people who aren't hardwired ancients.

We aren't miserable. We are joyful. We learned how to hit out of a divot. We acquired that skill which made us better players. Basically we win whether we go into a divot or if our opponent rolls into a divot.

[SlothofDespond]

27 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

We aren't miserable. We are joyful. We learned how to hit out of a divot. We acquired that skill which made us better players. Basically we win whether we go into a divot or if our opponent rolls into a divot.

 

I didn't say the divot people feel miserable. I said they're miserable to deal with. In my experience they're gleeful about this stuff happening.

[SnowbirdTom]

9 minutes ago, SlothofDespond said:

 

I didn't say the divot people feel miserable. I said they're miserable to deal with. In my experience they're gleeful about this stuff happening.

Nothing to be gleeful about, just another hazard to deal with. Learn how to do it and move on. Next thing y’all will be carping for will be relief from those consarned sand trap thingies. 🙄

Edited July 23 by SnowbirdTom
Words added

[ThinkingPlus]

22 minutes ago, SlothofDespond said:

 

I didn't say the divot people feel miserable. I said they're miserable to deal with. In my experience they're gleeful about this stuff happening.

Then that's OK too. Life isn't meant to be rainbows and unicorns. That's what makes golf so special. It emulates is less dire situations what we frequently encounter in life.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

1 hour ago, SlothofDespond said:

The folks against relief from divots strike me like the most miserable people to deal with on basically anything ever.

 

Oh no, golf will be fractionally easier when people aren't screwed because they happened to hit the ball where someone else did yesterday. Oh no, someone will have to craft some words to define divot and fairway like with basically ever other thing in golf and sports. The world will end.

 

Between this and the nonsense about nerfing the ball it's high time for golf to have a second rulemaking body for people who aren't hardwired ancients.

A bit hyperbolic don't you think?

 

If you and your buddies don't want to hit out a divot or any other fairway imperfection then simply institute LCP within your group. It's within the rules of preferred lies. No big deal.

 

As far as formal competition with more than 1 foursome, then you'd better be prepared to provide detailed written rules and definitions of when relief is and is not entitled. When does a divot stop being a divot?  If you can't do that then I guarantee you that some guys will "fluff" every ball claiming some type of fairway imperfection, and I don't think you want that or you've completely changed the game.