It's time, Pro's (and others) should get relief from divots...

[smashdn]

How about you get free back of line relief but must be 50 yards further from the hole.  If that means you must drop into a penalty area you must then follow the rules from there.

[scotee]

13 hours ago, 2bGood said:

I am sure there is some luck to it. I recall being golf trip and one of guys was in 3 or 4 divots during the course of 4 or 5 rounds at nice high end courses. We thought it was pretty funny. He was a good player so not a real issue though. 

 

Played today and was in a divot on my 2nd shot on the first hole par 5. Perfect layup in the middle of the fairway. It's not a rare thing.

 

[nsxguy]

29 minutes ago, scotee said:

 

Played today and was in a divot on my 2nd shot on the first hole par 5. Perfect layup in the middle of the fairway. It's not a rare thing.

 

 

How many other times were you in a divot today ?

 

This year ?

 

Perhaps you're unusually unlucky ? Most players seem to think they're in a divot once ever 10-20 rounds or so; if that often.

 

Or maybe they just hit the ball and move on - and don't think about it again ?

[2bGood]

2 hours ago, scotee said:

 

Played today and was in a divot on my 2nd shot on the first hole par 5. Perfect layup in the middle of the fairway. It's not a rare thing.

 

Don't keep us suspense - what did you shoot? Did you place well in your tournament? 

 

[scotee]

3 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Don't keep us suspense - what did you shoot? Did you place well in your tournament? 

 

 

Caught the wedge a little heavy trying to dig it out and made bog. 40/38. Happy anytime I break 80.

[2bGood]

41 minutes ago, scotee said:

 

Caught the wedge a little heavy trying to dig it out and made bog. 40/38. Happy anytime I break 80.

Nice score. Sounds a like a good day. 

[MUNIGRIT]

12 hours ago, scotee said:

 

Played today and was in a divot on my 2nd shot on the first hole par 5. Perfect layup in the middle of the fairway. It's not a rare thing.

 

I've hit divots on back to back holes before. It sucked because they were good drives that left me an iron into a back to back par 5s. Just rolled with the punches and played them as 3 shot holes with layups. They seem to come in streaks I've noticed.

[2bGood]

On 7/23/2022 at 8:47 AM, MUNIGRIT said:

I've hit divots on back to back holes before. It sucked because they were good drives that left me an iron into a back to back par 5s. Just rolled with the punches and played them as 3 shot holes with layups. They seem to come in streaks I've noticed.

Found myself in a divot today (ironic as I pointed a few times how rare that is). 100 yards out with about 1/5 of the ball below the surface. Wish I could say it all worked out, but I hit it fat and let my self 10 yards short. Birdie chance turned into a tough up and down for par instead. Made bogie. 

 

Wish I could say I have never made bogie from 100 before, but I have even without a divot. Golf happens. 

 

 

[Wonderboy]

On 3/8/2021 at 2:57 AM, 3whacker said:

IMO a divot in the fairway is Ground Under Repair and fair and equitable relief should be given within the rules and spirit of the game...I know golf purists will disagree but if you give relief from yardage markers, French drains, and sprinkler heads, which are all man made hazards/obstructions, then so is a divot...the ball should be placed as close to the divot as possible no nearer the hole and without cleaning the ball

I could not agree with this more.  Players who are in the fairway and in a divot should NOT have to play from that.  Why be penalized for being in the fairway??  Its an ancient rule that needs to change.  

[cmatthews77]

I haven’t gone through all the pages of this thread but I’ll add that I especially feel it should be relief as a local rule. All the comments that I’ve seen so far are for PGA Tour events where at least the pros take mostly clean shallow divots pointing the right direction. What about the average local course where you can find divots pointing the wrong direction from a stupid practice swing, divots 6” deep from a hack and on and on. 
 

I’m on the golf committee at my home club and I’ve been arguing for divot relief AND now I’m ready to go back to lift and place in the bunkers because since the stupid Covid rules where they removed the rakes too many people will no longer rake bunkers  even at a nice club and it’s infuriating 

[golfandfishing]

6 hours ago, Wonderboy said:

I could not agree with this more.  Players who are in the fairway and in a divot should NOT have to play from that.  Why be penalized for being in the fairway??  Its an ancient rule that needs to change.  

What’s the penalty?  

[Wonderboy]

2 hours ago, golfandfishing said:

What’s the penalty?  

The penalty is having to play from a divot after hitting the ball in the fairway.   If your ball lands in the rough or a bunker then yes, you get what you get, but playing from a divot (ground under repair) is a rule that makes no sense.

[oughtaquit]

I don’t doubt there are some excellent golfers here who play in high level tournaments where the Rules of Golf can be followed meticulously without significantly slowing play. I salute you. This topic is relevant to you and you only. For the remaining 99 percent of us, if you try to follow the Rules to the letter, your odds of finishing a round before dark are exactly zero. Roll the freaking ball onto some grass, where you have at least a chance of hitting it, and move on.  The rest of us behind you will much appreciate it. 

[Chunkitgood]

If you don’t like the rules of the game of golf, and therefore don’t like golf (since a game is nothing without its rules), play some other game.

 

Please.

[nsxguy]

56 minutes ago, Wonderboy said:

The penalty is having to play from a divot after hitting the ball in the fairway.   If your ball lands in the rough or a bunker then yes, you get what you get, but playing from a divot (ground under repair) is a rule that makes no sense.

 

Welllllll, OK.

 

So anytime you hit one heading OB and it hits a tree and that keeps it in, you have to take S&D penalty.

 

Ball hits a rock or a tree and goes from the rough to the fairway and you have to replace it in the rough.

 

etc., etc., etc.

 

THEN you can have your free relief from the divot.

 

Deal ? 👍

[oughtaquit]

10 minutes ago, Chunkitgood said:

If you don’t like the rules of the game of golf, and therefore don’t like golf (since a game is nothing without its rules), play some other game.

 

Please.

Get over yourself and get out of everyone’s way. Please. 

[Soloman1]

Maybe the frustration comes from the infrequency of being in a divot left by some (insert expletive) player ahead of you.

 

Why not increase the number of divots in the fairways, so it's occurs more often? You expect to be in a divot and not being in a divot will soon be considered good luck. Let's turn this thing around. It's like slot machines. You don't expect to win every pull, but are happy at the rarity of a win.

 

I'll start designing a new divot making tool that can be attached to the back of a fairway mower to create divots while cutting. This could be big . . .

[scotee]

27 minutes ago, Chunkitgood said:

If you don’t like the rules of the game of golf, and therefore don’t like golf (since a game is nothing without its rules), play some other game.

 

Please.

 

Played and loved the game for 50+ years and have watched many rules change. There are some pretty good arguments for the divot rule to be changed as well. 

[Wonderboy]

30 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Welllllll, OK.

 

So anytime you hit one heading OB and it hits a tree and that keeps it in, you have to take S&D penalty.

 

Ball hits a rock or a tree and goes from the rough to the fairway and you have to replace it in the rough.

 

etc., etc., etc.

 

THEN you can have your free relief from the divot.

 

Deal ? 👍

No.  Poor examples by the way.  

[nsxguy]

43 minutes ago, Wonderboy said:

No.  Poor examples by the way.  

 

Poor examples ? How so ?

 

You don't want to deal with the bad break you get once every St Swivin's Day when your ball ends up in a divot.

 

But the good breaks ? What ? You deserve the good breaks ?

 

 

[golfandfishing]

2 hours ago, Wonderboy said:

The penalty is having to play from a divot after hitting the ball in the fairway.   If your ball lands in the rough or a bunker then yes, you get what you get, but playing from a divot (ground under repair) is a rule that makes no sense.

It’s no different than hitting a green and getting a hard bounce into a bunker.  Should you just get a free drop back on the green?  It’s a bad break. It’s good for you on many levels to learn how to deal with it. 

[golfandfishing]

1 hour ago, Soloman1 said:

Maybe the frustration comes from the infrequency of being in a divot left by some (insert expletive) player ahead of you.

 

Why not increase the number of divots in the fairways, so it's occurs more often? You expect to be in a divot and not being in a divot will soon be considered good luck. Let's turn this thing around. It's like slot machines. You don't expect to win every pull, but are happy at the rarity of a win.

 

I'll start designing a new divot making tool that can be attached to the back of a fairway mower to create divots while cutting. This could be big . . .

So you bought the annual pass to Ken McDonald GC? I believe they already hold the patent on your mower concept.  

[bobfoster]

1 hour ago, Wonderboy said:

The penalty is having to play from a divot after hitting the ball in the fairway.   If your ball lands in the rough or a bunker then yes, you get what you get, but playing from a divot (ground under repair) is a rule that makes no sense.

What makes no sense is to go down the road of "if-thens". You talk like the only balls that wind up in divots are perfectly striped down the center. What about a drive that is a wicked slice, that (through sheer luck) careens off a tree and winds up in the center of the fairway. In a divot. You should then get relief from that divot? So your incredibly good luck gets rewarded, but your bad luck should be mitigated  ... to make golf "fair"? 

 

Golf is full of random luck - both good and bad (and they usually even themselves out over time - I know of no one that always has good luck or always has bad luck). Landing in a divot is just one of countless random things that can happen, and a pretty minor one at that. 

 

Golf is a game played over miles, with luck determined by inches. 250' drive rolls slightly off the fairway - can give you a clean lie, or be behind a huge clump of grass if it is two inches to the right. Can bounce straight forward, or hit a slight hill in the fairway and wind up in the weeds. Can get hit by a sudden gust of wind that bounces it off a cart path - the bounce either (if you are randomly lucky) leaves you with a wedge into a par 5, or (if you are unlucky) is so deep in the woods it makes you use your provisional. Ball comes to rest directly behind a tree leaving an impossible shot, or four inches to the left, leaving a clean line to the green. The difference between a birdie and a blow-up hole can be (and often is) completely random.

 

In truth, I really don't get this discussion. Unless a divot is some really weird, extreme thing (which is really rare) I don't really get what the problem is. So you are hitting off of dirt instead of manicured grass. Would much rather have that than hitting out of long rough. Being in a divot doesn't even change my club choice or desired shot shape. 

 

Maybe the world's elite, the pros - used to incredible precision - may be slightly affected, but even they usually manage to not have it affect them much. Golf announcers seem to make a big deal of it, but they make a big deal about a lot of inconsequential things (which is like why so many people watch golf with the Mute button on). But the pros themselves hit so many tens of thousands of practice shots out of so many turf conditions and lies that (if you really pay attention) they rarely have too much difficulty hitting out of a divot. Is it optimal? No. Is it a big problem? Not very often. And to the average amateur (remember, around 45% of golfers will never even break 100), it is completely meaningless. To those just hoping they don't hit it way fat or thin off the heel or toe, the difference between being on grass or in a divot is the least of their concerns.

 

But it really is a moot point. The rules bodies consider the issue incredibly trivial, and (in their minds) have far more serious issues they are addressing right now.

 

If someone doesn't like random, they shouldn't play either golf or poker. Because in both, no matter how good your skills are, Lady Luck will always be hovering over the game. Those that are great (at either game) just accept that, and somehow still seem to win regardless if she seems biased for them or against them at any particular moment. 

[Pastit]

5 hours ago, bobfoster said:

What makes no sense is to go down the road of "if-thens". You talk like the only balls that wind up in divots are perfectly striped down the center. What about a drive that is a wicked slice, that (through sheer luck) careens off a tree and winds up in the center of the fairway. In a divot. You should then get relief from that divot? So your incredibly good luck gets rewarded, but your bad luck should be mitigated  ... to make golf "fair"? 

 

Golf is full of random luck - both good and bad (and they usually even themselves out over time - I know of no one that always has good luck or always has bad luck). Landing in a divot is just one of countless random things that can happen, and a pretty minor one at that. 

 

Golf is a game played over miles, with luck determined by inches. 250' drive rolls slightly off the fairway - can give you a clean lie, or be behind a huge clump of grass if it is two inches to the right. Can bounce straight forward, or hit a slight hill in the fairway and wind up in the weeds. Can get hit by a sudden gust of wind that bounces it off a cart path - the bounce either (if you are randomly lucky) leaves you with a wedge into a par 5, or (if you are unlucky) is so deep in the woods it makes you use your provisional. Ball comes to rest directly behind a tree leaving an impossible shot, or four inches to the left, leaving a clean line to the green. The difference between a birdie and a blow-up hole can be (and often is) completely random.

 

In truth, I really don't get this discussion. Unless a divot is some really weird, extreme thing (which is really rare) I don't really get what the problem is. So you are hitting off of dirt instead of manicured grass. Would much rather have that than hitting out of long rough. Being in a divot doesn't even change my club choice or desired shot shape. 

 

Maybe the world's elite, the pros - used to incredible precision - may be slightly affected, but even they usually manage to not have it affect them much. Golf announcers seem to make a big deal of it, but they make a big deal about a lot of inconsequential things (which is like why so many people watch golf with the Mute button on). But the pros themselves hit so many tens of thousands of practice shots out of so many turf conditions and lies that (if you really pay attention) they rarely have too much difficulty hitting out of a divot. Is it optimal? No. Is it a big problem? Not very often. And to the average amateur (remember, around 45% of golfers will never even break 100), it is completely meaningless. To those just hoping they don't hit it way fat or thin off the heel or toe, the difference between being on grass or in a divot is the least of their concerns.

 

But it really is a moot point. The rules bodies consider the issue incredibly trivial, and (in their minds) have far more serious issues they are addressing right now.

 

If someone doesn't like random, they shouldn't play either golf or poker. Because in both, no matter how good your skills are, Lady Luck will always be hovering over the game. Those that are great (at either game) just accept that, and somehow still seem to win regardless if she seems biased for them or against them at any particular moment. 

In my experience cart paths can lead to major issues so the “ blue blazers “ are lax in not granting relief. Divots definitely not.  

[trilerian]

10 hours ago, Pastit said:

In my experience cart paths can lead to major issues so the “ blue blazers “ are lax in not granting relief. Divots definitely not.  

 

Yeah, divots are annoying.  I hate cart paths...  They always put them near PAs to make sure you get one more big hop on the way into them.  

[airjammer]

16 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Poor examples ? How so ?

 

You don't want to deal with the bad break you get once every St Swivin's Day when your ball ends up in a divot.

 

But the good breaks ? What ? You deserve the good breaks ?

 

 

Because none of those examples where hazards made by players before you. 

[Obee]

16 hours ago, bobfoster said:

What makes no sense is to go down the road of "if-thens". You talk like the only balls that wind up in divots are perfectly striped down the center. What about a drive that is a wicked slice, that (through sheer luck) careens off a tree and winds up in the center of the fairway. In a divot. You should then get relief from that divot? So your incredibly good luck gets rewarded, but your bad luck should be mitigated  ... to make golf "fair"? 

 

Golf is full of random luck - both good and bad (and they usually even themselves out over time - I know of no one that always has good luck or always has bad luck). Landing in a divot is just one of countless random things that can happen, and a pretty minor one at that. 

 

Golf is a game played over miles, with luck determined by inches. 250' drive rolls slightly off the fairway - can give you a clean lie, or be behind a huge clump of grass if it is two inches to the right. Can bounce straight forward, or hit a slight hill in the fairway and wind up in the weeds. Can get hit by a sudden gust of wind that bounces it off a cart path - the bounce either (if you are randomly lucky) leaves you with a wedge into a par 5, or (if you are unlucky) is so deep in the woods it makes you use your provisional. Ball comes to rest directly behind a tree leaving an impossible shot, or four inches to the left, leaving a clean line to the green. The difference between a birdie and a blow-up hole can be (and often is) completely random.

 

In truth, I really don't get this discussion. Unless a divot is some really weird, extreme thing (which is really rare) I don't really get what the problem is. So you are hitting off of dirt instead of manicured grass. Would much rather have that than hitting out of long rough. Being in a divot doesn't even change my club choice or desired shot shape. 

 

Maybe the world's elite, the pros - used to incredible precision - may be slightly affected, but even they usually manage to not have it affect them much. Golf announcers seem to make a big deal of it, but they make a big deal about a lot of inconsequential things (which is like why so many people watch golf with the Mute button on). But the pros themselves hit so many tens of thousands of practice shots out of so many turf conditions and lies that (if you really pay attention) they rarely have too much difficulty hitting out of a divot. Is it optimal? No. Is it a big problem? Not very often. And to the average amateur (remember, around 45% of golfers will never even break 100), it is completely meaningless. To those just hoping they don't hit it way fat or thin off the heel or toe, the difference between being on grass or in a divot is the least of their concerns.

 

But it really is a moot point. The rules bodies consider the issue incredibly trivial, and (in their minds) have far more serious issues they are addressing right now.

 

If someone doesn't like random, they shouldn't play either golf or poker. Because in both, no matter how good your skills are, Lady Luck will always be hovering over the game. Those that are great (at either game) just accept that, and somehow still seem to win regardless if she seems biased for them or against them at any particular moment. 

 

End Thread ^^^^

[betarhoalphadelta]

46 minutes ago, trilerian said:

 

Yeah, divots are annoying.  I hate cart paths...  They always put them near PAs to make sure you get one more big hop on the way into them.  

 

Hole #2 at my local is a 170 par 3. The cart path runs along the left of the green and then u-turns to the 3rd tee. Behind the 2nd green is the 18th fairway, and the cart path is between the green and fairway. 

 

I've now had it happen multiple times that my left miss hits the 2nd/3rd hole cart path, catches a big bounce, hits the 18th hole cart path, catches another big bounce, and the shot ends up being 240 yards and well into the 18th fairway.

 

At least I've never ended up in a divot in that fairway--which would be angled 90* to my line of play back to the 2nd green! 

[MelloYello]

What's the fundamental difference between relief from an embedded ball and relief from a divot? 

 

I don't see the benefit in making people play from fairway divots. It's an element of randomness within the game that too seriously damages the game's ability to test the competitors. No skill is involved in punching a shot forward. It is a lost opportunity to hit what could've been a better shot. 

 

Imagine being 225 out on a Par-5. Instead of landing a long shot on the green and making eagle or birdie in a demonstration of your ability, you're robbed of that and are forced to lay up into a position that statistically we know is worse. So it absolutely is a quantifiable penalty to the player, but not one the player can strategize for to any appreciable degree.  

 

The question is always, "does this balance itself out over the course of 18 holes?"

 

In the case of divots, no, it definitely doesn't. 

 

If you imagine golf as it is but grant players relief from fairway divots, IMHO nothing within the game changes for the negative and yet the game becomes more consistent overall, especially when you consider conditions hole-to-hole, course-to-course, public-vs-private, etc which gets to an issue of how this might affect certain "types" of golfers more than others. Ouch!

 

I can imagine what sort of personality would be opposed to this. We get a lot of those types of people in golf, but I'm not one and neither are the folks in my regular money games. The 20 or so people who form this group all agree to grant each other relief from fairway divots. 

 

So returning to the original question of relief from embedded balls versus having to play from a divot--both of which represent the same problem of the ball being below the surrounding surface--you're really going to argue that rain causing a problem is something we deserve relief from but other golfers damaging the course is not? So even though rain is a natural event you're giving it special privilege? 

 

Again, it's says everything about the person who'll defend these contradictions and call them features and order. 

 

.

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by MelloYello

[Pastit]

32 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

What's the fundamental difference between relief from an embedded ball and relief from a divot? 

 

I don't see the benefit in making people play from fairway divots. It's an element of randomness within the game that too seriously damages the game's ability to test the competitors. No skill is involved in punching a shot forward. It is a lost opportunity to hit what could've been a better shot. 

 

Imagine being 225 out on a Par-5. Instead of landing a long shot on the green and making eagle or birdie in a demonstration of your ability, you're robbed of that and are forced to lay up into a position that statistically we know is worse. So it absolutely is a quantifiable penalty to the player, but not one the player can strategize for to any appreciable degree.  

 

The question is always, "does this balance itself out over the course of 18 holes?"

 

In the case of divots, no, it definitely doesn't. 

 

If you imagine golf as it is but grant players relief from fairway divots, IMHO nothing within the game changes for the negative and yet the game becomes more consistent overall, especially when you consider conditions hole-to-hole, course-to-course, public-vs-private, etc which gets to an issue of how this might affect certain "types" of golfers more than others. Ouch!

 

I can imagine what sort of personality would be opposed to this. We get a lot of those types of people in golf, but I'm not one and neither are the folks in my regular money games. The 20 or so people who form this group all agree to grant each other relief from fairway divots. 

 

So returning to the original question of relief from embedded balls versus having to play from a divot--both of which represent the same problem of the ball being below the surrounding surface--you're really going to argue that rain causing a problem is something we deserve relief from but other golfers damaging the course is not? So even though rain is a natural event you're giving it special privilege? 

 

Again, it's says everything about the person who'll defend these contradictions and call them features and order. 

 

.

 

I can’t recall having serious issues with divots, certainly with medium distances left to greens. Maybe an odd time when I’ve a wood left. Perhaps  there’s a difference with Bermuda grass fairways with you over there.