How much can lead tape move CG? Head MOI, Lie, tip wt, tungsten, turning over..

[teddyironboy]

Any chance you could try for more toe weight, like 10, 20 grams?

 

 

[teddyironboy]

Well I guess I'll learn cad

[Righty to Lefty]

On 3/22/2021 at 7:26 PM, third-times-a-charm said:

So all things equal, adding upwards of 8-12g heel or toe could ruin the club.

No it means he exact opposite...it means that you basically just added 8 to 12 grams of weight to the head and increased the swing weight and total weight but didn't change much else about the playing characteristics of the club as the CoG is basically unaffected. 

[teddyironboy]

I just don't see how if manufacturers are adding 12, 15g to the toe, lead tape won't do anything. And I think it would have more effect than replacing it. Think about it, if you replace steel with a heavier metal, you subtract the steel from the area. If instead you add on that same amount of weight and don't replace the steel, you get heavier metal + steel on that side. I could be wrong since overall weight changes, just some quick mental math.

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, teddyironboy said:

I just don't see how if manufacturers are adding 12, 15g to the toe, lead tape won't do anything. And I think it would have more effect than replacing it. Think about it, if you replace steel with a heavier metal, you subtract the steel from the area. If instead you add on that same amount of weight and don't replace the steel, you get heavier metal + steel on that side. I could be wrong since overall weight changes, just some quick mental math.

 

you're not considering what else they might be doing to the rest of the head to accommodate the extra weight on the toe.  They are not increasing the total weight of the head - otherwise it would screw up the swing weight. So if weight is being added to the toe, it's being removed from somewhere else.   Moving weight is always going to potentially be much more effective than adding weight when it comes to the influence on the c.g. or other head characteristics.

 

Then there's the fact that marketing departments are always going to blow the effects of any design change out of proportion to the reality.

 

Edited July 22, 2021 by Stuart_G

[Stuart_G]

On 7/21/2021 at 12:58 AM, teddyironboy said:

Any chance you could try for more toe weight, like 10, 20 grams?

 

 

 

Not and maintain a reasonable swing weight / club MOI.    That's always going to be WAY more important than anything you could do to the c.g.

Edited July 22, 2021 by Stuart_G

[dlow206]

Let's say you are a toe hitter, most shots slightly toe side, some shots more extreme toe side.

 

And say you have an iron like the below model, with the screw weight in the toe, and you happen to need to increase the swingweight and you need to add 8 grams. will there be any noticeable change in performance if the 8 gram increase is via the toe screw vs. hosel tip weight, for the golfer who misses toe side?

 

based on reading this thread, it seems like no.

 

And second question, would the fact that the horizontal center of gravity is slightly toe side to begin with, have any noticeable benefit to the toe hitter? below is info from Golfworks about this model. 

 

asking for the guy who has never hit an iron off the heel in his life...

 

"The positioning of the added toe mass moves the KE4 MAX iron's C-Dimension to an incredible 1.702". This lengthy C-Dimension measurement results in a horizontal center gravity location of .096" toe side of the geometric center of the clubface producing a very high MOI (Moment of Inertia) of 14.3616 oz-in² for MAXimum forgiveness on off center hits. "

 

[Cwebb]

56 minutes ago, dlow206 said:

.

 

And second question, would the fact that the horizontal center of gravity is slightly toe side to begin with, have any noticeable benefit to the toe hitter? below is info from Golfworks about this model. 

 

asking for the guy who has never hit an iron off the heel in his life...

 

 

 

It absolutely will.  The number one priority for someone looking for extra toe side help, is a head design with a longer C-dimension...and one that has the COG positioned center of the face.   One that is designed with it slightly further on the toe side, will help some more....and an additional 8g on that side will nudge it out there a smidge more.

 

Another design from them that has these characteristics is the KE4 Tour+.  Very forgiving overall and especially towards the toe

Edited May 15, 2022 by Cwebb

[J.Bex]

This came up in another thread about adding a tip weight to a putter.  Testing with my new Newport 2-esque design, here is an 8 gram tip weight's effect on CG movement.

 

CG went 0.035" (0.89 mm) heelward, 0.058" (1.47 mm) upward.  Putter head is 340g:

CG is floating in space behind the face:

Just a shot of the CG behind the W logo:

Head MOI before:  4322 g-cm²

Head MOI after:  4461 g-cm²

 

I'll be using the thread below for any new "JSig" putter CAD designs.  Hope to get to my own iron and driver eventually.

 

[J.Bex]

Just linking the latest putter test to my thread here:

 

[Hack Daddy]

I used 14g brass ferrules before and had 17g of hotmelt in my driver head. 

 

Still can't tell CoG shift. 🤷

[J.Bex]

2 minutes ago, Hack Daddy said:

I used 14g brass ferrules before and had 17g of hotmelt in my driver head. 

 

Still can't tell CoG shift. 🤷

Still haven't gotten to my own driver design in CAD because it's more daunting than putters, but hopefully "soon".  Iron design will probably be next as that shouldn't be too bad. Just need the motivation and find the time.  Will get there!

[JCAG]

On 7/22/2021 at 7:08 AM, Stuart_G said:

 

you're not considering what else they might be doing to the rest of the head to accommodate the extra weight on the toe.  They are not increasing the total weight of the head - otherwise it would screw up the swing weight. So if weight is being added to the toe, it's being removed from somewhere else.   Moving weight is always going to potentially be much more effective than adding weight when it comes to the influence on the c.g. or other head characteristics.

 

Then there's the fact that marketing departments are always going to blow the effects of any design change out of proportion to the reality.

 

Then there's the fact that marketing departments are always going to blow the effects of any design change out of proportion to the reality. How true.

[J.Bex]

Testing something for another thread.... Newport 2 style head going from 338g with 30g weights to 358g with 40g weights.  MOI increased by 314 g-cm².

 

338g, 30g weights, MOI = 4306 g-cm²

 

358g, 40g weights, MOI = 4620 g-cm²

 

The MOI we're interested in is around the blue Z axis, "Lzz" in the red dots.  This runs through the CG vertically which is how companies usually report MOI.  Callaway/Odyssey shows this as "IZZ" for their Tri-Hot 5K putters:

 

Reference thread:

 

[BREWMASTER95060]

Adding lead tape to the head can be tricky.
 

2021 hogan taylormade data 5 2021 hogan taylormade data 6

[BREWMASTER95060]

5 hours ago, BREWMASTER95060 said:

Adding lead tape to the head can be tricky.
 

2021 hogan taylormade data 5 137.11 kB · 0 downloads 2021 hogan taylormade data 6 137.11 kB · 0 downloads

 

[JungleJimbo]

Thought this was a nice video w.r.t. Lead tape (and gives credit to one of the OGs i.e. Tutelman). 

...credit: @Adam C too. (albeit i was surprised that a single 3 inch strip of Lead tape, albeit high-density, was equivalent to 10 grams?! Timestamp ~5m50s). 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by JungleJimbo

[Stuart_G]

7 hours ago, JungleJimbo said:

(albeit i was surprised that a single 3 inch strip of Lead tape, albeit high-density, was equivalent to 10 grams?!

 

While the golfworks high density lead tape is only 1 gm / inch (1/2" wide), there are other sources.  I've seen links to lead tape on Amazon that go up to 2 gm / inch.

 

 

7 hours ago, JungleJimbo said:

Thought this was a nice video w.r.t. Lead tape (and gives credit to one of the OGs i.e. Tutelman).

 

This is a case where a little knowledge can be misleading.  The process is good - although he left out one important part out - he failed to monitor face impact location and consistency.   But his conclusion on why the ball speed went up isn't really complete.  You'll notice that the launch angle changed and lowered with the extra 10 gm - which means dynamic loft or face impact location changed as well.  So did side angle - so face-to-path also changes.   All of those can effect the "efficiency" or smash factor.    If you do the math - some of that extra speed might have come from the extra mass, but not all of it.   So it's at least as much about how the weight effects the delivery as it is about the impact.

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Stuart_G

[JungleJimbo]

11 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

While the golfworks high density lead tape is only 1 gm / inch (1/2" wide), there are other sources.  I've seen links to lead tape on Amazon that go up to 2 gm / inch.

 

 

 

This is a case where a little knowledge can be misleading.  The process is good - although he left out one important part out - he failed to monitor face impact location and consistency.   But his conclusion on why the ball speed went up isn't really complete.  You'll notice that the launch angle changed and lowered with the extra 10 gm - which means dynamic loft or face impact location changed as well.  So did side angle - so face-to-path also changes.   All of those can effect the "efficiency" or smash factor.    If you do the math - some of that extra speed might have come from the extra mass, but not all of it.   So it's at least as much about how the weight effects the delivery as it is about the impact.

 

thanks @Stuart_G ... i appreciate your attention to detail!

 

perhaps @Adam C can consider a "Part 2" video, using face impact tape / @Howard_Jones's DIY Driver Fitting tips ( <== i'm guessing @Adam C is already familiar with this ... but needed to simplify his video somewhat, for his target audience's attention span ... but i've always found Howard's DIY Driver Fitting guide = essential reading!)

 

 

[Adam C]

11 minutes ago, JungleJimbo said:

thanks @Stuart_G ... i appreciate your attention to detail!

 

perhaps @Adam C can consider a "Part 2" video, using face impact tape / @Howard_Jones's DIY Driver Fitting tips ( <== i'm guessing @Adam C is already familiar with this ... but needed to simplify his video somewhat, for his target audience's attention span ... but i've always found Howard's DIY Driver Fitting guide = essential reading!)

 

 

Taking all this into consideration for a second video. There is a balance of how detailed we can get in a video but I can start at the very least tracking and including the impact info if people want it.

Also to clarify, it took more than the one 3 inch strip of lead tape to hit 10 grams (edited it down). Was another 2 inch strip with it. This was very high density tape though.

[Stuart_G]

2 hours ago, Adam C said:

here is a balance of how detailed we can get in a video

 

No doubt.  I can only imagine how fine a line it might be to keep viewers interested yet still cover all the important points.   Not something I'd ever have the patience for 🙂

 

2 hours ago, Adam C said:

but I can start at the very least tracking and including the impact info if people want it.

 

Getting people to learn to use some foot powder spray and give then a basic understanding of how important that impact location really is when it comes to ball numbers (especially with a driver) might be a good topic on it's own  (if you haven't already covered it).

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Stuart_G

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

1 hour ago, Stuart_G said:

Getting people to learn to use some foot powder spray and give then a basic understanding of how important that impact location really is when it comes to ball numbers (especially with a driver)

On that specific point (and thanks for resetting this interesting thread, @JungleJimbo), which is preferable:  foot spray or dry erase on the back of the ball?

 

Also, from skimming this large thread, we know that lead tape on irons has a pretty trivial effect on manipulating horizontal CoG---thanks @joostin---but what about vertical?  And is the distance that vertical can move, material for affecting ball flight?

Edited October 11, 2023 by Jayjay_theweim_guy

[Stuart_G]

1 minute ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

On that specific point (and thanks for resetting this interesting thread, @JungleJimbo), which is preferable:  foot spray or dry erase on the back of the ball?

 

I prefer foot powder spray - mainly because it's easier.  Takes less time to spray the face than it does to color enough of the ball to be useful.   And one spray application can be useful for several strikes.

 

 

1 minute ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

Also, from skimming this large thread, we know that lead tape on irons has a pretty trivial effect on manipulating horizontal CoG---thanks @joostin---but what about vertical?

 

Even less than horizontal.   How effective added weight is to moving the c.g. is related to both how much weight and how far away from the c.g. you can place the weight.   There is a LOT less room in the vertical dimensions to add that weight than there is in the horizontal.

[J.Bex]

7 hours ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

pretty trivial effect on manipulating horizontal CoG---thanks @joostin---but what about vertical?  And is the distance that vertical can move, material for affecting ball flight?

Yeah even more trivial vertically as Stuart said.  The pic below was on page 2, with 20g in the shaft tip - a lot higher and heavier than we would get with lead tape (I hope!).  This moved upward about half the amout it moved in total, around .09", not so trivial depending who you ask.  But a 4g strip of lead tape somewhere on the blade, and that's probably down to .01" (not enough for me to turn my computer and CAD on 😆).  Definitely tiny vs strike variance.