Masters Sunday: Horschel @13

[Hawkeye77]

13 minutes ago, Dim said:

Well done guys. OP starts a topic in Rules of Golf and Etiquette and 27 posts later nobody actually refers to an actual golf rule.

 

I was amazed by the Horschel debacle and was having similar doubts. I guess we are all not here to call CBS but because we actually are trying to understand the rules of golf.

 

I will give it a try:

I believe we are talking about the actual ball Billy was trying to hit before. So presuming that, it was a ball in play. I have searched the rules of golf and could not find a ‘declaration of intent to substitute a ball’ anywhere.

 

A ball remains in play until:

- lifted or

- lost or out of bounds or

- it is substituted

 

A ball is substituted when he puts a new ball in play in any way (14.4 R&A):

- by substituting, dropping or placing a ball on the course with the intent of putting that ball in play

 

He did not do this yet when he tossed the ball into the water with his club. I think it was not an intended swing, so I think he moved a ball in play (9.2 R&A)

 

In this case it would have been moved by touching by the player (9.4 R&A). Therefore there would be a 1 stroke penalty and ball has to be replaced.

 

Of course I can see why Horschel was frustrated, but strictly from a rules perspective I think this would be  what should have been applied. After what happened to Ancer in the same tournament (which by itself is an interesting discussion) I was expecting this to be penalized.

 

You are claiming once he decided to take relief he had to leave his original ball in the penalty area, couldn't touch it, and it was still "in play" and remained so until he dropped the substituted ball?  Not sure that's helpful.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Hawkeye77

[Dim]

Sure he can touch it to lift the ball. He doesn’t even have to mark it if it is to take relief (14.1a R&A).

 

Question is: was he ‘lifting the ball’ with the move he made? Maybe this is why tour pro’s always leave their ball in the water. If this is considered ‘lifting’, then there is an easy escape when trying to hit a ball from a penalty area and failing. One can just say: I was ‘lifting’ the ball.

[Hawkeye77]

1 minute ago, Dim said:

Sure he can touch it to lift the ball. He doesn’t even have to mark it if it is to take relief (14.1a R&A).

 

Question is: was he ‘lifting the ball’ with the move he made? Maybe this is why tour pro’s always leave their ball in the water. If this is considered ‘lifting’, then there is an easy escape when trying to hit a ball from a penalty area and failing. One can just say: I was ‘lifting’ the ball.

So he can't lift his ball with his club, that's your distinction? You can answer this and the other question I asked, to which the above isn't an answer.

[Dim]

@Hawkeye77 You have now made 14 posts in this thread, only questioning other ‘contributors’and even accusing them of all kinds of stuff.

 

I am trying to actually present applicable rules to this situation. Why don’t you try to respond to that with actual parts coming from the rulebook.

[Hawkeye77]

1 minute ago, Dim said:

@Hawkeye77 You have now made 14 posts in this thread, only questioning other ‘contributors’and even accusing them of all kinds of stuff.

 

I am trying to actually present applicable rules to this situation. Why don’t you try to respond to that with actual parts coming from the rulebook.

That's right, asking questions to flesh out what it is you are actually claiming, you don't seem to want to answer. Haven't accused anyone of anything, the only person being accused is Horschel.

 

He can lift his ball, it's not required to be replaced in that situation, he determined he was taking relief, he can do just about anything he wants with it.   A different ball dropped, he hits it, life moves on. 

 

 

[Dim]

12 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

That's right, asking questions to flesh out what it is you are actually claiming, you don't seem to want to answer. Haven't accused anyone of anything, the only person being accused is Horschel.

 

He can lift his ball, it's not required to be replaced in that situation, he determined he was taking relief, he can do just about anything he wants with it.   A different ball dropped, he hits it, life moves on. 

 

 

I am not claiming anything. I am quoting rules from the book, that you present to know really well. So why the questions from your side?

 

You seem confident you know the rules really well, but again not a single rule from the actual rules if golf you are referring to. 
 

Anyone else?

[Hawkeye77]

23 minutes ago, Dim said:

I am not claiming anything. I am quoting rules from the book, that you present to know really well. So why the questions from your side?

 

You seem confident you know the rules really well, but again not a single rule from the actual rules if golf you are referring to. 
 

Anyone else?

I don't even pretend to be a rules expert.  I've explained why the questions.  Hopefully someone will provide what you are looking for.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, Dim said:

Well done guys. OP starts a topic in Rules of Golf and Etiquette and 27 posts later nobody actually refers to an actual golf rule.

 

 

Maybe you should have read the posts instead of counting the number of them. That way you would have found references to actual Rules of Golf.

[Mr. Bean]

When a player decides to play their ball from some place else than where it lies (the ball may be lifted at once or moved by other means, or if so desired, left it there and substituted by another ball. All these acts constitute lifting of the ball from the purpose of the Rule in question. IIRC there used to be a Decision on this but as I have no access to my literature at the moment I cannot provide necessary Rule / Interpretation numbers, as unfortunate it is.

 

EDIT: Check Interpretation 14.1a/1. There it is said rather clearly.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=interp&section=rule&rulenum=14

Edited April 12, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[Dim]

Thanks @Mr. Bean.
 

For me it is still unclear if this should be considered as lifting. Lifting implies you have the intention to get the ball in ‘your posession’. I think that was not the intent here.

 

For me, that is the core of this case. The distinction between ‘lifting’ and ‘moving’ in the rules of golf is not clear to me. They are treated differently, so there should be a clear distinction.

 

Interpretation 9.4b/4 handless ‘reasonable actions’ that could be applicable here if he did not ‘lift’ but ‘move’ the ball.

[Newby]

10 minutes ago, Dim said:

Thanks @Mr. Bean.
 

For me it is still unclear if this should be considered as lifting. Lifting implies you have the intention to get the ball in ‘your posession’. I think that was not the intent here.

 

For me, that is the core of this case. The distinction between ‘lifting’ and ‘moving’ in the rules of golf is not clear to me. They are treated differently, so there should be a clear distinction.

 

Interpretation 9.4b/4 handless ‘reasonable actions’ that could be applicable here if he did not ‘lift’ but ‘move’ the ball.

Lifting and moving are irrelevant.  He was simply substituting another ball.

Here is the Rule (ie Definition)

 

 

Substitute

To change the ball the player is using to play a hole by having another ball become the ball in play.

The player has substituted another ball when he or she puts that ball in play in any way (see Rule 14.4) instead of the player’s original ball, whether the original ball was:

• In play, or

• No longer in play because it had been lifted from the course or was lost or out of bounds.

A substituted ball is the player’s ball in play even if:

• It was replaced, dropped or placed in a wrong way or wrong place, or

• The player was required under the Rules to put the original ball back in play rather than to substitute another ball.

[Dim]

Thnx @Newby.

 

He was indeed intending to apply this rule. But as this rule describes:

5 minutes ago, Newby said:

The player has substituted another ball when he or she puts that ball in play in any way (see Rule 14.4)

He puts a new ball in play at the point where he drops the new ball with the intent of getting that ball in play. He was still in the penalty area and had not done that yet. So the ball was not substituted yet.

[Mr. Bean]

5 minutes ago, Newby said:

Lifting and moving are irrelevant.  He was simply substituting another ball.

Here is the Rule (ie Definition)

 

 

Substitute

To change the ball the player is using to play a hole by having another ball become the ball in play.

The player has substituted another ball when he or she puts that ball in play in any way (see Rule 14.4) instead of the player’s original ball, whether the original ball was:

• In play, or

• No longer in play because it had been lifted from the course or was lost or out of bounds.

A substituted ball is the player’s ball in play even if:

• It was replaced, dropped or placed in a wrong way or wrong place, or

• The player was required under the Rules to put the original ball back in play rather than to substitute another ball.

 

I do not think this is what Dim is looking for as the substitution took place only AFTER Billy had moved his ball within the PA. Thus IMO lifting is relevant but as I have explained it is not relevant HOW the player lifts or does not lift his ball as long as it is clear he is going to substitute that ball and play from some place else.

 

I hope Dim gets my meaning and his mind is easier.

[Hawkeye77]

Just now, Mr. Bean said:

 

I do not think this is what Dim is looking for as the substitution took place only AFTER Billy had moved his ball within the PA. Thus IMO lifting is relevant but as I have explained it is not relevant HOW the player lifts or does not lift his ball as long as it is clear he is going to substitute that ball and play from some place else.

 

I hope Dim gets my meaning and his mind is easier.

He can put it in his pocket or throw it to Fred Ridley if he wants or .... toss it in the creek.

[Dim]

Indeed @Mr. Bean. 
 

Perhaps we will not find an answer, but to me the rules are then not clear on how to separate ‘lifting’ from ‘moving’ in this specific case where marking is not required for lifting. The marking is what usually makes it pretty clear.

[gulpeg]

after speaking with a PGA Class A pro rules guy, here's what I now understand. He admittedly DID NOT see this happen.

 

BH hit one into creek on 13 (1), takes 2 attempts to extricate himself from hazard (2,3). decides he's had enough and then goes back on line entered, drops, takes stroke and hits 5 (4.5). Ball was not necessarily declared unplayable, but simply relief. (this part I was unclear on and wrong about, i'm now corrected).

 

however, the questions still remains: did he take a stroke when flipping the ball back into creek with wedge vs. picking it up with his hand. I've read the USGA definition of a stroke and it could be debated (should we start a new one?) that is could be deemed as a stroke.

 

He recounted an instance in a match where a player was walking down a fairway backhanding range balls off the fairway back toward the range fences and was assessed a penalty for practicing. Clearly that was not the intent as I'm sure BH had no intent with the ball he flipped. But technically he made contact with the ball. Probably would have been better in hindsight to just pick it up and leave no room for discussion.

 

Is that a stroke? some say yes, some say no. On and on it goes.

 

If yes, then he posted an incorrect score, if no then all is fine.

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

7 minutes ago, gulpeg said:

after speaking with a PGA Class A pro rules guy, here's what I now understand. He admittedly DID NOT see this happen.

 

BH hit one into creek on 13 (1), takes 2 attempts to extricate himself from hazard (2,3). decides he's had enough and then goes back on line entered, drops, takes stroke and hits 5 (4.5). Ball was not necessarily declared unplayable, but simply relief. (this part I was unclear on and wrong about, i'm now corrected).

 

however, the questions still remains: did he take a stroke when flipping the ball back into creek with wedge vs. picking it up with his hand. I've read the USGA definition of a stroke and it could be debated (should we start a new one?) that is could be deemed as a stroke.

 

He recounted an instance in a match where a player was walking down a fairway backhanding range balls off the fairway back toward the range fences and was assessed a penalty for practicing. Clearly that was not the intent as I'm sure BH had no intent with the ball he flipped. But technically he made contact with the ball. Probably would have been better in hindsight to just pick it up and leave no room for discussion.

 

Is that a stroke? some say yes, some say no. On and on it goes.

 

If yes, then he posted an incorrect score, if no then all is fine.

 

 

He lifted his ball, been covered several times. 

[Imp]

9 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

He lifted his ball, been covered several times. 

"however, the questions still remains: did he take a stroke when flipping the ball back into creek with wedge vs. picking it up with his hand."

Did he lift his ball and then hit the ball, then take the drop?

Or did he hit the ball back into the creek, lift it, then drop? 

Instead of playing the antagonist, explain in your words, Hawkeye77, what he did that was within the rules. 

[Mr. Bean]

22 minutes ago, gulpeg said:

He recounted an instance in a match where a player was walking down a fairway backhanding range balls off the fairway back toward the range fences and was assessed a penalty for practicing.

 

 

There used to be a Decision stating that casual flipping of range balls onto the range was not considered practicing so I believe your pro either remembers incorrectly or that happened so many years ago that the Decision in question had not yet been published. Or the player in question flipped so many balls that it was no longer considered casual.

[Mr. Bean]

2 minutes ago, Imp said:

"however, the questions still remains: did he take a stroke when flipping the ball back into creek with wedge vs. picking it up with his hand."

Did he lift his ball and then hit the ball, then take the drop?

Or did he hit the ball back into the creek, lift it, then drop? 

Instead of playing the antagonist, explain in your words, Hawkeye77, what he did that was within the rules. 

 

As soon as Billy decided he was going to take a relief it made no difference how he would 'lift' his ball. This is the idea behind the entire thing. No need to nitpick whether he lifted or moved or ate the ball, he had decided to take a relief and even to substitute that ball. End of story.

[Hawkeye77]

4 minutes ago, Imp said:

"however, the questions still remains: did he take a stroke when flipping the ball back into creek with wedge vs. picking it up with his hand."

Did he lift his ball and then hit the ball, then take the drop?

Or did he hit the ball back into the creek, lift it, then drop? 

Instead of playing the antagonist, explain in your words, Hawkeye77, what he did that was within the rules. 

He lifted his ball with his wedge - just a fact, nothing antagonistic, lol. 

[Dim]

1 minute ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

As soon as Billy decided he was going to take a relief it made no difference how he would 'lift' his ball. This is the idea behind the entire thing. No need to nitpick whether he lifted or moved or ate the ball, he had decided to take a relief and even to substitute that ball. End of story.

So just the intent or decision of taking relief makes a ball ‘not in play’?

 

That contradicts rules definition for ‘ball in play’. A ball is no longer in play when:

- Lifted

- Lost or OB

- Substituted

 

 

[Imp]

11 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

As soon as Billy decided he was going to take a relief it made no difference how he would 'lift' his ball. This is the idea behind the entire thing. No need to nitpick whether he lifted or moved or ate the ball, he had decided to take a relief and even to substitute that ball. End of story.

I decide I'm going to take a lift, but don't tell anyone, because there's no requirement. That's settled.
How it's lifted, not an issue either. That's settled.

So, I hit it into the creek. 

Here's my issue....

It gives the appearance that I can, based on that outcome of the following, decide my next step. 

If it ends up in a playable spot? I can play it, right? Stroke would count.
If it ends up in a non playable spot (like what happened), take a drop, where that 'test' was just "oh, hey just hitting it into a thing." 

See the dilemma? Let's change the player here for a sec... what if it was Reed? 

Hitting a ball with a club, not by mistake (in the new rules) but with a purpose, is still forbidden, yes? 

Always been an issue using a club to do anything near a ball. The only thing they changed in '19 was adding the 'mistaken hit' stuff. (Just replace). But this wasn't a mistake. 

--kC
 

Edited April 12, 2021 by Imp

[Dim]

7 minutes ago, Imp said:

I decide I'm going to take a lift, but don't tell anyone, because there's no requirement. That's settled.
How it's lifted, not an issue either. That's settled.

So, I hit it into the creek. 

Here's my issue....

It gives the appearance that I can, based on that outcome of the following, decide my next step. 

If it ends up in a playable spot? I can play it, right? Stroke would count.
If it ends up in a non playable spot (like what happened), take a drop, where that 'test' was just "oh, hey just hitting it into a thing." 

See the dilemma? Let's change the player here for a sec... what if it was Reed? 

Hitting a ball with a club, not by mistake (in the new rules) but with a purpose, is still forbidden, yes? 

--kC
 

Exactly my point. One could change its explanation depending on the outcome of this ‘flicking with a wedge’.

 

And again nothing to do with Horschel. I like his ‘passion’ and would have loved to see him do better.

 

I am just amazed at how unclear this can be. I am picking balls from the pond with my club all day. Call me cheap, I don’t care.

 

In this situation there should be a clear distinction in the rules between:

- lifting

- moving

- stroke

Edited April 12, 2021 by Dim

[Mr. Bean]

6 minutes ago, Dim said:

So just the intent or decision of taking relief makes a ball ‘not in play’?

 

That contradicts rules definition for ‘ball in play’. A ball is no longer in play when:

- Lifted

- Lost or OB

- Substituted

 

 

 

You are not listening what I say:

 

'As soon as Billy decided he was going to take a relief it made no difference how he would 'lift' his ball.'

 

A casual flip, lifting with hand, kicking with a foot, stepping on it to bury it into the ground, blowing it into the creek with a portable leafblower. No difference IMHO.

[Mr. Bean]

2 minutes ago, Dim said:

Exactly my point. One could change its explanation depending on the outcome of this ‘flicking with a wedge’.

 

 

That would be cheating, let us not get into that, please.

[Hawkeye77]

12 minutes ago, Imp said:

I decide I'm going to take a lift, but don't tell anyone, because there's no requirement. That's settled.
How it's lifted, not an issue either. That's settled.

So, I hit it into the creek. 

Here's my issue....

It gives the appearance that I can, based on that outcome of the following, decide my next step. 

If it ends up in a playable spot? I can play it, right? Stroke would count.
If it ends up in a non playable spot (like what happened), take a drop, where that 'test' was just "oh, hey just hitting it into a thing." 

See the dilemma? Let's change the player here for a sec... what if it was Reed? 

Hitting a ball with a club, not by mistake (in the new rules) but with a purpose, is still forbidden, yes? 

Always been an issue using a club to do anything near a ball. The only thing they changed in '19 was adding the 'mistaken hit' stuff. (Just replace). But this wasn't a mistake. 

--kC
 

He didn't hit it in the creek, he lifted it with his wedge and tossed it there, you keep missing the point and answers provided several times above.

 

You make a stroke, different situation, also discussed several times.

[Dim]

6 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

You are not listening what I say:

 

'As soon as Billy decided he was going to take a relief it made no difference how he would 'lift' his ball.'

 

A casual flip, lifting with hand, kicking with a foot, stepping on it to bury it into the ground, blowing it into the creek with a portable leafblower. No difference IMHO.

Ok that would be great, but is that your conclusion because of Interpretation 14.1a/1? So basically, it all depends on my intention. If I was intending to lift I was not moving the ball?

 

[sui generis]

2 minutes ago, Dim said:

Ok that would be great, but is that your conclusion because of Interpretation 14.1a/1? So basically, it all depends on my intention. If I was intending to lift I was not moving the ball?

 

 

Mr Bean has it right. Once the player decided to take relief the manner in which they lift the ball (or just walk away and leave it there) is of no consequence. 🙂

[Colin L]

T

7 minutes ago, Dim said:

Ok that would be great, but is that your conclusion because of Interpretation 14.1a/1? So basically, it all depends on my intention. If I was intending to lift I was not moving the ball?

 

 

I'm not normally as blunt as this in a rules forum, but  you demonstrate two problems in this thread.

1.  You don't properly understand the Rules.

2. You're not listening to those who do.