Masters Sunday: Horschel @13

[Newby]

Have I understood you correctly? If he had simply lifted his ball and set it aside before playing with a fresh ball, he would have been ok but because he 'flicked' it to one side with his club and then played with a fresh ball, he is penalised?

[Imp]

5 hours ago, Newby said:

Have I understood you correctly? If he had simply lifted his ball and set it aside before playing with a fresh ball, he would have been ok but because he 'flicked' it to one side with his club and then played with a fresh ball, he is penalised?

More like: What if the flick put the ball into a good position for a next shot? I mean, can someone flick/hit it, have it land somewhere else and then go "oh, hey, that's a good spot, I'll play it from there"? Conversely, if it goes into the creek/worse "I was taking a drop, anyways...." Since there's no requirement to declare taking the penalty/drop or unplayable or whatever, it's ripe for abuse since there is no explicit requirement for verbalization of next move, having others aware of what is happening before hitting a ball with their club. 

But yes... considering all that, this would all be moot if he picked it up with his hand. It's because he swung/used his club, specifically.

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by Imp

[sui generis]

46 minutes ago, Imp said:

More like: What if the flick put the ball into a good position for a next shot? I mean, can someone flick/hit it, have it land somewhere else and then go "oh, hey, that's a good spot, I'll play it from there"? Conversely, if it goes into the creek/worse "I was taking a drop, anyways...." Since there's no requirement to declare taking the penalty/drop or unplayable or whatever, it's ripe for abuse since there is no explicit requirement for verbalization of next move, having others aware of what is happening before hitting a ball with their club. 

But yes... considering all that, this would all be moot if he picked it up with his hand. It's because he swung/used his club, specifically.

 

 

Rule 1.2 has it covered.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=1&subrulenum=2

Cheaters don't prosper.

[Sawgrass]

6 hours ago, Dim said:

 

To make it even more clear / expand on this:

 

9.4 Ball Lifted or Moved by Player

b. Penalty for Lifting or Deliberately Touching Ball or Causing It to Move

If the player lifts or deliberately touches his or her ball at rest or causes it to move, the player gets one penalty stroke.

But there are four exceptions:

 

Exception 4 – Accidental Movement Anywhere Except on Putting Green While Applying Rule: There is no penalty when the player accidentally causes the ball to move anywhere except on the putting green while taking reasonable actions to:

 

- Take relief under a Rule, including in determining....

 

And then  the interpretation for reasonable actions

 

9.4b/5 – Meaning of “Reasonable Actions” in Rule 9.4b Exception 4

 

In other situations, Exception 4 to Rule 9.4 does not apply because the player’s actions are not “reasonable”.

These include when:

• The player approaches his or her ball to take relief and kicks a rock in frustration that accidentally strikes and moves the ball.

• The player throws a club down into the relief area in preparing to measure, and the club accidentally strikes and moves the ball.

• The player lifts a bunker rake or his or her club and throws it out of a bunker. The rake or club falls back into the bunker, striking and moving the ball.

 

The statement: once you decide to take relief from the penalty area you can do with the ball whatever you want is very much not true.

You left off the only relevant part:

 

Exception 1 – Player Allowed to Lift or Move Ball: There is no penalty when the player lifts the ball or causes it to move under a Rule that:

• Requires or allows the player to drop or place a ball again or to play a ball from a different place.

[Imp]

2 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

Rule 1.2 has it covered.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=1&subrulenum=2

Cheaters don't prosper.

 

2 hours ago, Sawgrass said:

You left off the only relevant part:

 

Exception 1 – Player Allowed to Lift or Move Ball: There is no penalty when the player lifts the ball or causes it to move under a Rule that:

• Requires or allows the player to drop or place a ball again or to play a ball from a different place.

Again... *we get that*. It's loud and clear. 

 

What we are saying is it seems weird/nonsensical that the rules allow for: "I meant to do it that way." Is that not allowed here? Can we only talk about rules, but not Reed loopholes to the rules?

Most other "I'm doing this" type rules mean verbalizing to someone BEFORE actually doing it to remove question about the player (R1.2) doing it for an advantage, like provisionals. (i.e. Spieth reteeing and hitting again to fix a prior bad swing -  when his ball wasn't lost or OB - one can call a provisional at any time).

Exception 1 allows for "I was only doing a lift with my club" if it doesn't work and "I'm playing it from there" if it does. 

What's to stop someone taking a whack at the ball, and THEN saying "I was only lifting it" (if it lands in a bad spot) vs. "It was a swing at the ball and I'm playing it from there" (it it lands in a good spot - and it's better than where one would be taking the relief). 1.2 isn't enough for that.  I/we  think it needs to be verbalized prior to doing it, like a provisional. 

Edited April 15, 2021 by Imp

[Sawgrass]

2 minutes ago, Imp said:

 

Again... *we get that*. It's loud and clear. 

 

What we are saying is it seems weird/nonsensical that the rules allow for: "I meant to do it that way." Is that not allowed here? Can we only talk about rules, but not Reed loopholes to the rules?

Most other "I'm doing this" type rules mean verbalizing to someone BEFORE actually doing it to remove question about the player (R1.2) doing it for an advantage. 

Exception 1 allows for "I was only doing a lift with my club" if it doesn't work and "I'm playing it from there" if it does. 

What's to stop someone taking a whack at the ball, and THEN saying "I was only lifting it" (if it lands in a bad spot) vs. "It was a swing at the ball and I'm playing it from there" (it it lands in a good spot - and it's better than where one would be taking the relief).  1.2 isn't enough for that.  I think it needs to be verbalized prior to doing it, like a provisional. 

You’re saying that a cheater might lie about what he is doing.  Sure.  No rules change required.

[rogolf]

30 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

You’re saying that a cheater might lie about what he is doing.  Sure.  No rules change required.

In stroke play, every player has a responsibility to protect the field (Rule 20.1c(2)).  If any player is not satisfied with another player's actions regarding the Rules, these actions are to be reported to the Committee, and the Committee will follow-up.

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, Imp said:

 

Again... *we get that*. It's loud and clear. 

 

What we are saying is it seems weird/nonsensical that the rules allow for: "I meant to do it that way." Is that not allowed here? Can we only talk about rules, but not Reed loopholes to the rules?

Most other "I'm doing this" type rules mean verbalizing to someone BEFORE actually doing it to remove question about the player (R1.2) doing it for an advantage, like provisionals. (i.e. Spieth reteeing and hitting again to fix a prior bad swing -  when his ball wasn't lost or OB - one can call a provisional at any time).  No, one can't..

Exception 1 allows for "I was only doing a lift with my club" if it doesn't work and "I'm playing it from there" if it does.  No it doesn't.

What's to stop someone taking a whack at the ball, and THEN saying "I was only lifting it" (if it lands in a bad spot) vs. "It was a swing at the ball and I'm playing it from there" (it it lands in a good spot - and it's better than where one would be taking the relief). 1.2 isn't enough for that.  I/we  think it needs to be verbalized prior to doing it, like a provisional. 

Mostly, I haven't the faintest idea what you're on about, but realising that you are apparently taking a keen interest in learning the rules, why not just ask questions about what you don't understand rather than make wild assertions? 

[tatertot]

Out of curiosity ... do you see a difference between "driving" your car and "traveling" in your car?

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, Imp said:

Most other "I'm doing this" type rules mean verbalizing to someone BEFORE actually doing it to remove question about the player (R1.2) doing it for an advantage, like provisionals. (i.e. Spieth reteeing and hitting again to fix a prior bad swing -  when his ball wasn't lost or OB - one can call a provisional at any time).

Exception 1 allows for "I was only doing a lift with my club" if it doesn't work and "I'm playing it from there" if it does. 

What's to stop someone taking a whack at the ball, and THEN saying "I was only lifting it" (if it lands in a bad spot) vs. "It was a swing at the ball and I'm playing it from there" (it it lands in a good spot - and it's better than where one would be taking the relief). 1.2 isn't enough for that.  I/we  think it needs to be verbalized prior to doing it, like a provisional. 

Rule 18.3(b) does not allow "a provisional at any time".  

 

You can take anything to extremes, but the extremes you suggest are pretty obvious examples of outright cheating that the rules can handle just fine.  If you are suggesting a rule is needed so someone can't simply lift his or her ball with a club or fish it out of deep grass once they've determined they are taking relief, I don't think in 40+ years of playing golf I've ever seen in person or on television any situation where there is any problem for which that solution is necessary. 

 

The advantage you suggest is potentially gained almost by description guarantees someone made an intentional stroke at the ball, whether a "whack" or anything else, which would be pretty obvious, IMO.  

 

 

[Newby]

2 hours ago, Imp said:

Most other "I'm doing this" type rules mean verbalizing to someone BEFORE actually doing it 

So you have noticed that verbalizing isn't always required. This is just one of those.

[sui generis]

I can think of only four times under the 2019 Rules when a player is required to speak up:

 

1 Provisional (R18.3b)
2 Play of 2nd ball (R20.1c3)
3 Club out of play (R4.1c1)
4 Request ruling in match play (R20.1b)

[Mr. Bean]

11 hours ago, Dim said:

 

To make it even more clear / expand on this:

 

9.4 Ball Lifted or Moved by Player

b. Penalty for Lifting or Deliberately Touching Ball or Causing It to Move

If the player lifts or deliberately touches his or her ball at rest or causes it to move, the player gets one penalty stroke.

But there are four exceptions:

 

Exception 4 – Accidental Movement Anywhere Except on Putting Green While Applying Rule: There is no penalty when the player accidentally causes the ball to move anywhere except on the putting green while taking reasonable actions to:

 

- Take relief under a Rule, including in determining....

 

And then  the interpretation for reasonable actions

 

9.4b/5 – Meaning of “Reasonable Actions” in Rule 9.4b Exception 4

 

In other situations, Exception 4 to Rule 9.4 does not apply because the player’s actions are not “reasonable”.

These include when:

• The player approaches his or her ball to take relief and kicks a rock in frustration that accidentally strikes and moves the ball.

• The player throws a club down into the relief area in preparing to measure, and the club accidentally strikes and moves the ball.

• The player lifts a bunker rake or his or her club and throws it out of a bunker. The rake or club falls back into the bunker, striking and moving the ball.

 

The statement: once you decide to take relief from the penalty area you can do with the ball whatever you want is very true.

 

This is a great example of what means 'knowing the Rules'. One may read many pages from the book but fails to understand which part of the text is the relevant part.

 

As Sawgrass already explained, you omitted the crucial part of the Rule in your quest to try to put the rest of us in shame. Well, this time you took the shortest straw but keep on trying !

Edited April 15, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[Sawgrass]

14 minutes ago, sui generis said:

I can think of only four times under the 2019 Rules when a player is required to speak up:

 

1 Provisional (R18.3b)
2 Play of 2nd ball (R20.1c3)
3 Club out of play (R4.1c1)
4 Request ruling in match play (R20.1b)

Let me weasel in some oddballs:

 

5 When opponent asks how many strokes have been taken 3.2d(1)

 

6 Telling opponent about an unseen penalty 3.2d(2)

 

7 Cancel opponent’s stroke 6.4a(2)

[sui generis]

43 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

Let me weasel in some oddballs:

 

5 When opponent asks how many strokes have been taken 3.2d(1)

 

6 Telling opponent about an unseen penalty 3.2d(2)

 

7 Cancel opponent’s stroke 6.4a(2)

 

I'll happily add #6 to my list. 🙂

[Hawkeye77]

44 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

Let me weasel in some oddballs:

 

5 When opponent asks how many strokes have been taken 3.2d(1)

 

6 Telling opponent about an unseen penalty 3.2d(2)

 

7 Cancel opponent’s stroke 6.4a(2)

Question - do you have to verbalize to anyone other than your caddie authorization to pick up your ball, if there are still areas where that is required?  Don't even know why it occurred to me.

[Sawgrass]

6 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Question - do you have to verbalize to anyone other than your caddie authorization to pick up your ball, if there are still areas where that is required?  Don't even know why it occurred to me.

I might need you to be more specific to answer you properly, but other than on the putting green when your caddie may mark and lift your ball without authorization, your caddie may not typically lift your ball in play unless directed.  (I say “typically” because there are some rare circumstances when the caddie may do so without penalty.)

[Hawkeye77]

3 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

I might need you to be more specific to answer you properly, but other than on the putting green when your caddie may mark and lift your ball without authorization, your caddie may not typically lift your ball in play unless directed.  (I say “typically” because there are some rare circumstances when the caddie may do so without penalty.)

Looking in the rules it looks like I was thinking of what is 14(b) - and then the above examples made me wonder when that is applicable whether that is as simple as communication to the caddie vs. some sort of "common" declaration like a provisional.

[Sawgrass]

12 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Looking in the rules it looks like I was thinking of what is 14(b) - and then the above examples made me wonder when that is applicable whether that is as simple as communication to the caddie vs. some sort of "common" declaration like a provisional.

Sure.  Saying, “Please toss me my ball, caddie, I’m taking relief” is just fine.  On the other hand, your caddie picking your ball out of the water simply because he thinks he knows you’ll want to drop is going to be a penalty.

[Dim]

7 hours ago, Sawgrass said:

You left off the only relevant part:

 

Exception 1 – Player Allowed to Lift or Move Ball: There is no penalty when the player lifts the ball or causes it to move under a Rule that:

• Requires or allows the player to drop or place a ball again or to play a ball from a different place.

My last post was not about the Horschel incident, but was a response to the statement that you can do whatever you want when you decided to take relief from a penalty area.

 

To cover the actual Horschel incident I already quoted 9.4b excepion 1. But I also added this statement from the Interpretations:

Rule 9.4 applies wherever a ball in play is on the course. This includes when a ball is in a tree. However, when the player does not intend to play the ball as it lies but is trying only to identify it, or intends to retrieve it to use another Rule, the Exceptions to Rule 9.4b apply and there is no penalty.

 

Explaining that 9.4.b exception 1 is there to be able to identify or retrieve a ball, but is not to be ‘abused for other behaviour’.

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by Dim

[jobin]

Seems to me that 'once i decide to take relief' the ball is not in play. Makes no difference if the decision is communicated to others. 

And, i also think, that no golf ball 'not in play' can absorb a penalty. Except taking a practice stroke at a certain random ball, not however, one from the range.

Got that?

[Sawgrass]

1 hour ago, jobin said:

Seems to me that 'once i decide to take relief' the ball is not in play. Makes no difference if the decision is communicated to others. 

And, i also think, that no golf ball 'not in play' can absorb a penalty. Except taking a practice stroke at a certain random ball, not however, one from the range.

Got that?

Some slight misperceptions, though they generally may not matter to you.  You may announce or decide that your ball, resting on a paved cart path for instance, is going to be dropped elsewhere, but it remains in play nonetheless.  That’s important since you may still change your mind and legally play it.

 

And yes, you would get a penalty for making a “stroke” at a wrong ball, or making a practice stroke at any ball, while playing a hole.  Banging a range ball back to the range to care for the course is neither a practice stroke nor a stroke, and penalty-free.

[rogolf]

4 hours ago, Dim said:

My last post was not about the Horschel incident, but was a response to the statement that you can do whatever you want when you decided to take relief from a penalty area.

 

To cover the actual Horschel incident I already quoted 9.4b excepion 1. But I also added this statement from the Interpretations:

Rule 9.4 applies wherever a ball in play is on the course. This includes when a ball is in a tree. However, when the player does not intend to play the ball as it lies but is trying only to identify it, or intends to retrieve it to use another Rule, the Exceptions to Rule 9.4b apply and there is no penalty.

 

Explaining that 9.4.b exception 1 is there to be able to identify or retrieve a ball, but is not to be ‘abused for other behaviour’.

 

That may have been my statement, what don't you like about it, or what do you think is wrong with it? (and I was referring to the Horschel incident.)

Edited April 16, 2021 by rogolf

[Dim]

4 hours ago, rogolf said:

That may have been my statement, what don't you like about it, or what do you think is wrong with it? (and I was referring to the Horschel incident.)

I think my post already mentions a clear example from the ‘reasonable actions’ interpretation: if you start kicking rocks that move your ball while you already decided to take relief you still do get a penalty. This is just about ‘accidental movement’ of the ball. That is why it does not directly relate to the #13 incident, because that was quite deliberate. That is why exception 1 is more applicable there.

[Mr. Bean]

9 hours ago, Dim said:

I think my post already mentions a clear example from the ‘reasonable actions’ interpretation: if you start kicking rocks that move your ball while you already decided to take relief you still do get a penalty. This is just about ‘accidental movement’ of the ball. That is why it does not directly relate to the #13 incident, because that was quite deliberate. That is why exception 1 is more applicable there.

 

No, no, no and once more NO!!!

 

What is it with you?? This Exception is clear as blue sky and you STILL keep insisting something else!!!

 

Exception 1 – Player Allowed to Lift or Move Ball: There is no penalty when the player lifts the ball or causes it to move under a Rule that:

• Requires or allows the player to drop or place a ball again or to play a ball from a different place.

 

So, once I have decided, preferably announced, that I will take a relief I do NOT get a penalty if I then deliberately or accidentally cause my ball to move. That is what this Exception CLEARLY states.

 

PLEASE, stop spreading false information!!

 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[Mr. Bean]

14 hours ago, Sawgrass said:

Banging a range ball back to the range to care for the course is neither a practice stroke nor a stroke, and penalty-free.

 

I would like to emphasize the casual nature of such 'banging'. There is a difference between casually banging a range ball onto or towards the range and carefully addressing a ball trying to hit that ball to a certain target on the range. I would rather consider the latter to be practicing, especially when repeated.

[Dim]

14 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

No, no, no and once more NO!!!

 

What is it with you?? This Exception is clear as blue sky and you STILL keep insisting something else!!!

 

Exception 1 – Player Allowed to Lift or Move Ball: There is no penalty when the player lifts the ball or causes it to move under a Rule that:

• Requires or allows the player to drop or place a ball again or to play a ball from a different place.

 

So, once I have decided, preferably announced, that I will take a relief I do NOT get a penalty if I then deliberately or accidentally cause my ball to move. That is what this Exception CLEARLY states.

 

PLEASE, stop spreading false information!!

 

 

@Mr. Bean

Ok, so I have a question then:

 

If Exception 1 bullet 3  indeed has such a large ‘scope’, would that make Exception 4 bullet 1 and 4 redundant?

 

Exception 4 – Accidental Movement Anywhere Except on Putting Green While Applying Rule: There is no penalty when the player accidentally causes the ball to move anywhere except on the putting green while taking reasonable actions to:

 

1. Mark the spot of the ball or lift or replace the ball, when allowed to do so (see Rules 14.1 and 14.2),

 

4. Take relief under a Rule, including in determining whether relief is available under a Rule (such as swinging a club to see if there is interference from a condition), or where to take relief (such as determining the nearest point of complete relief), 

 

[Mr. Bean]

9 hours ago, Dim said:

 

@Mr. Bean

Ok, so I have a question then:

 

If Exception 1 bullet 3  indeed has such a large ‘scope’, would that make Exception 4 bullet 1 and 4 redundant?

 

Exception 4 – Accidental Movement Anywhere Except on Putting Green While Applying Rule: There is no penalty when the player accidentally causes the ball to move anywhere except on the putting green while taking reasonable actions to:

 

1. Mark the spot of the ball or lift or replace the ball, when allowed to do so (see Rules 14.1 and 14.2),

 

4. Take relief under a Rule, including in determining whether relief is available under a Rule (such as swinging a club to see if there is interference from a condition), or where to take relief (such as determining the nearest point of complete relief), 

 

 

I suggest you read the Exceptions very carefully paying a lot of attention to the words used. Doing that you just might get the idea behind all those Exceptions. Do also read all the Interpretations under 9.4b. It would take way too much time for me to go through all the variants to make you fully understand the entire concept that I just do not want to do it.