Why doesn't everyone putt sidesaddle ?

[bluedot]

14 hours ago, Obee said:

 

Do you know of Randy Haag? He turned to side-saddle to battle the yips. Still gets them even putting side-saddle now, though....

I've watched and read Randy Haag's stuff from the beginning.  He's a great resource; very honest about his game, and highly accomplished.

[bluedot]

13 hours ago, iSwing said:

 

Interesting indeed!   Here's what happened when an actual putting master, Burke Jr., discussed rolling a ball with a present day, what some would call,  'guru', Mangum,  who got schooled on the proper natural function of the trail arm when rolling a ball, which would be a train wreck with a saddle stroke.  "Exactly" you say!   No, it's not, but do what you like.  

 

 

Perhaps you would agree that using a pencil or saw grip, regardless of whether the individual is putting conventionally or side saddle is putting the hand in exactly the position that Burke is talking about here?  That grip, now used widely by conventional putters, including on Tour, is also used by the majority of side saddle putters, and I suspect that the popularity of that grip is because that's the way our arms want to swing anyway, which is exactly what Burke is saying.

 

Beyond that, there isn't much common ground between this video and side saddle, simply because Burke and Mangum are discussing a stroke in which the "trail" arm is coming across the body in conjunction with the other arm, rather than one arm swinging beside the body; I think you'd agree that the two motions are completely different, regardless of which you prefer. 

 

But I am curious as to what would make the rotation of the forearm "a train wreck" when putting side saddle, but not when putting conventionally.  No matter what putting stroke you use, it's critical that you release the putter head down the intended line, rather than "popping" the ball.  Burke is advocating a natural, free release of the club, which is great advice in any case, and absolutely essential to a good putting stroke of any type.  But the ball is already long gone by the time the hand would rotate; it isn't possible to change the path of the putt at that point. 

 

Also, fwiw, I have been reading Geoff Mangum's Putting Zone stuff for many years.  His ideas and methods for green reading are the absolute best in the business, IMO.  I think if everybody practiced and used what he advocates, most golfers could reduce three putting significantly, regardless of putting method or grip or any of that. 

[tm3]

Geoff Mangum has studied biomechanics and neurophysiology and he tries to incorporate that knowledge into his teaching of putting.

 

He said this about sidesaddle:

 

Those who always claim that tossing a ball at a target is easier and more natural than putting a ball at a target may not have really tested whether that is so or not. personally, if my life depended on getting the ball as close to the target as possible, and I could choose whether to toss it face-forward or putt it side-on, I'm pretty sure I would putt the ball.

While it is true that face-forward orientation is the "natural" or habitual orientation for human targeting, and is thus more easily employed accurately by the average golfer, sidesaddle putting does not really have an exclusive claim to this orientation over conventional putting, as its proponents so often claim or imply. And it is not a straight-forward matter that face-forward is the same from beside-the-ball. So sidesaddle targeting is probably not inherently superior to conventional two-phase targeting. I'm pretty sure it helps many amateurs quite a bit, especially if the golfer gets the ball a little out in front of the stance to promote better hand-eye coordination. And Piparo and Gammon may well be onto something really nice if the biomechanics of the motion proves itself - time will ultimately tell.

 

So he seems to think that sidesaddle is not inherently better, but is pretty sure that it "helps many amateurs quite a bit."

 

Thumbs up from Pelz, thumbs ...... sideways? ...... from Mangum.

[mbarnocki]

Ok so I read all this and it is an interesting thought to try something new no big deal. But I keep seeing it said that "binocular vision" is a great advantage to this style of stroke. But the video shows a golfer with a hat on staring at the ball as it is hit. There is absolutely no way you can even see the hole at all unless it is like a two foot or less tap in. So how is that an advantage? You make the same pre putt "binocular vision" read as a conventional putter, but then you putt completely blind. At least conventional I can see it out of the corner of my eye. Do I have to also give up hats and stare at the hole instead of the ball to putt?

[bluedot]

5 hours ago, mbarnocki said:

Ok so I read all this and it is an interesting thought to try something new no big deal. But I keep seeing it said that "binocular vision" is a great advantage to this style of stroke. But the video shows a golfer with a hat on staring at the ball as it is hit. There is absolutely no way you can even see the hole at all unless it is like a two foot or less tap in. So how is that an advantage? You make the same pre putt "binocular vision" read as a conventional putter, but then you putt completely blind. At least conventional I can see it out of the corner of my eye. Do I have to also give up hats and stare at the hole instead of the ball to putt?

 

A few side saddle guys look at the hole when the putt from any distance, so they have full advantage of binocular vision.  For those of us who look at the ball when putting side saddle, we're still looking down the line when we do look at the hole.  For most people, when they line up a putt from behind the ball and then move beside it, the change of perspective causes the line to look different (parallax error).  There are work-arounds for this, like the line on the ball or even spot putting, and it's no different from full swing alignment; if you go to the range at a Tour event, even those guys are constantly working on and checking their alignment.  Putting is no different.

[davidy1948]

Interesting that Mangum, whose depth of knowledge and insight is most impressive in this area, questions the suitability of the hand for this process elsewhere in the post quoted because of extraneous factors. Sidesaddle putters create a fulcrum with one hand to reduce/eliminate this factor. Conventional putters use both hands without any control  ! Yet that's somehow preferable...

[tm3]

15 hours ago, bluedot said:

 

For most people, when they line up a putt from behind the ball and then move beside it, the change of perspective causes the line to look different (parallax error).  

And going back to Mangum, he makes a really big deal of accurate and consistent head position once over the ball (again invoking his knowledge of biomechanics).  He argues that with the head tilted down too much, then turning the head to check the line,  there will be consistent misses to one side of the hole and with the head tilted up too much the misses will be on the other side.  Also, he says that one of the death moves for conventional putting is one that is very common ie after getting in position over the putt lifting the head up to horizontal and rotating it towards the hole to check the line then tilting back down to make the stroke.

 

So when Mangum says "sidesaddle targeting is probably not inherently superior to conventional two-phase targeting" I think he should add "all else being equal" ie conventional targeting done correctly ...... which a lot of conventional putters don't do.   It's much easier to check the line from the sidesaddle position by just lifting the chin up and down than it is to accurately orient the head in a conventional position and then rotate accurately back and forth to confirm the line.

[jldelta]

Does anyone here know if it would contravene the rules of golf to use a left-handed putter in right-handed mode for side-saddle putting ? Assuming the putter in question is legal for left-handed use.

[BigEx44]

On 5/11/2021 at 5:43 PM, Obee said:

 

Do you know of Randy Haag? He turned to side-saddle to battle the yips. Still gets them even putting side-saddle now, though....

 

Most of us side-saddle putters, including Bluedot, are well aware of Randy Haag.  I sometimes like to read his blog.

[bluedot]

3 hours ago, jldelta said:

Does anyone here know if it would contravene the rules of golf to use a left-handed putter in right-handed mode for side-saddle putting ? Assuming the putter in question is legal for left-handed use.

 

I can't think of any reason that this would violate the Rules.  The rules pertinent to side saddle are pretty simple.  You can't straddle or stand on the the line of the putt.  You can't anchor either your top hand (not an issue with side saddle) or your forearm to your chest if you are using a putter with a split grip, and the straight part of the shaft has to be at least 10* off vertical when the putter is soled.  None of that is in play if you use a left-handed putter from the right side.

 

That said, as I try to picture this in my mind's eye, either your body would be in the way of the stroke, or you would be holding the putter WAY out away from your body.  I can't think of an advantage, and these seem to be rather large problems.

[dlygrisse]

On 5/4/2021 at 3:48 AM, BigEx44 said:

 

Many side saddle putters hold their putter at 90* (toe down) in order to better execute a SBST motion.

I have a friend who hits most short putts side saddle and flips the putter so he is hitting it off the toe like a croquet mallet. It eliminates the lie angle issue but his contact has to be perfect.  He does duff a few but makes a lot of putts as well.  He used to be a competitive croquet player so he is very comfortable with the action. 

[N0rs3man]

On 5/4/2021 at 5:02 AM, davidy1948 said:

Well I'm very pleased to have stimulated such debate on this topic, much of it from people who are both smarter and better informed than I am !

 

As often happens when something radical is suggested, much of the response from traditionalists is rather defensive and aggressive at the same  - reminds me of the launch of S+T all those years ago ( not very well handled by the S+T people themselves of course ) - now much of their thinking has been incorporated, often without attribution, into mainstream teaching.

 

I think of sidesaddle at being the Fosbury Flop of putting - remember the ridicule that faced, how could you possibly jump over a bar by first turning your back on it ?

 

It's a little disappointing that the pros have given it much of a shot - I do remember a brief flirtation by KJ Choi, and I heard that Dechambeau had looked at it before going to his current style - now that really would have been something !

 

I remain convinced that sidesaddle facing the hole is the way forward, just based on basic commonsense if nothing else. After all, it's the golf shot requiring the most precision - an inch left or right and it doesn't go in - so why would you deliberately turn your head away from that tiny target and opt to put blind ?

 

Anyway my thanks to all who have contributed so far, I've already learnt a lot and maybe will learn more should there be future contributions.

I don't think you putt blind with conventional putting. You do the math before hand, and get the putter set in a position while looking and youndo minute adjustments until it feels right. Then you look down and stroke. Its not exactly like bowling or throwing a ball. Its like bowling with the kid ramp. You line it up first, you don't need to line it up and stare at the pins as you place the ball on the ramp and let go. That would just be weird.

[jldelta]

3 hours ago, bluedot said:

 

I can't think of any reason that this would violate the Rules.  The rules pertinent to side saddle are pretty simple.  You can't straddle or stand on the the line of the putt.  You can't anchor either your top hand (not an issue with side saddle) or your forearm to your chest if you are using a putter with a split grip, and the straight part of the shaft has to be at least 10* off vertical when the putter is soled.  None of that is in play if you use a left-handed putter from the right side.

 

That said, as I try to picture this in my mind's eye, either your body would be in the way of the stroke, or you would be holding the putter WAY out away from your body.  I can't think of an advantage, and these seem to be rather large problems.

Thanks, bd: I may buy a LH Ping B90 (if the price is right) with which to experiment. If I do, will post results here.

[bluedot]

19 hours ago, jldelta said:

Thanks, bd: I may buy a LH Ping B90 (if the price is right) with which to experiment. If I do, will post results here.

 

I tried this with my right handed Bobby Grace F22, which is square; turned it around so that it "simulated" a left handed putter.  It wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, but I can't see the advantage of a stance where my top hand is reaching farther across my body to get to the putter.  I may be missing something, but what are you hoping to do this way?

[jldelta]

1 hour ago, bluedot said:

 

I tried this with my right handed Bobby Grace F22, which is square; turned it around so that it "simulated" a left handed putter.  It wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, but I can't see the advantage of a stance where my top hand is reaching farther across my body to get to the putter.  I may be missing something, but what are you hoping to do this way?

I think with a LH B90 in right hand mode the shaft may end up vertical.

[bluedot]

1 hour ago, jldelta said:

I think with a LH B90 in right hand mode the shaft may end up vertical.

With all due respect, I think that if the shaft is vertical, either the heel or the toe is going to be at least slightly off the ground because the shaft is at least 10 degrees off vertical, regardless of which way to lean it.  The "usual" of course, is that the heel would be off the ground when the shaft is dead vertical, but I think the toe would be by the same amount if you used a LH putter from the right side.

 

The good news is that the Ping hot dog putter is about as friendly to the shaft being vertical without losing the sweet spot as anything full size could be, along with the Bobby Grace F22 and the old STX bullet back putter.  But I can't see how you would gain by having the toe off the ground instead of the heel.

[BigEx44]

On 7/6/2021 at 8:27 AM, dlygrisse said:

I have a friend who hits most short putts side saddle and flips the putter so he is hitting it off the toe like a croquet mallet. It eliminates the lie angle issue but his contact has to be perfect.  He does duff a few but makes a lot of putts as well.  He used to be a competitive croquet player so he is very comfortable with the action. 

 

Interesting....

[Pepperturbo]

Sidesaddle has been talked about since when I was born, and I am an old roaster.  Last I knew it was legal.  Sometime back I tried it once, just to see for myself and say I did.  It looks girly and odd, like I tried riding sidesaddle too, just to see, NOPE.  If you like it go for it, just expect to be razed till you take all the money and win.  Maybe then razing will stop, but I doubt it, it will always look funny....

 

PS, I bowled league in HS, nope.

Edited July 7, 2021 by Pepperturbo

[tatertot]

On 7/6/2021 at 5:27 AM, dlygrisse said:

I have a friend who hits most short putts side saddle and flips the putter so he is hitting it off the toe like a croquet mallet. It eliminates the lie angle issue but his contact has to be perfect.  He does duff a few but makes a lot of putts as well.  He used to be a competitive croquet player so he is very comfortable with the action. 

This is actually illegal for a couple of reasons.

[dlygrisse]

1 hour ago, tatertot said:

This is actually illegal for a couple of reasons.

He putts side saddle, outside of his foot, he doesn't straddle it like croquet.  He just hits it with the end of the putter, which is legal.   

 

PGA TOUR - Sam Snead side-saddle putting instruction - Bing video

[bluedot]

1 hour ago, Pepperturbo said:

Sidesaddle has been talked about since when I was born, and I am an old roaster.  Last I knew it was legal.  Sometime back I tried it once, just to see for myself and say I did.  It looks girly and odd, like I tried riding sidesaddle too, just to see, NOPE.  If you like it go for it, just expect to be razed till you take all the money and win.  Maybe then razing will stop, but I doubt it, it will always look funny....

 

PS, I bowled league in HS, nope.

As to being "razed", you're half right. 

 

Chops always freak out; good players never say a word unless they want to ask about it and check out the putter.  When I get paired up with strangers at my home course, if they say anything at all, it'll be immediate, and without fail, they suck.

 

But I play a lot of senior tournaments, both individual and four ball, and those guys rarely say a word.  Good players would do ANYTHING to get the ball in the hole one stroke quicker; chops are threatened by the possibility that there might be a better way.  Plus, most good players have seen this before anyway; there are actually a surprising number of guys putting this way, especially since the anchoring ban came in. 

 

But it's all good; I'm at a place in my life where I don't give a damn what anybody thinks anyway.  I find that to be a bigger advantage in golf than any particular putting method, including putting with one hand from an extremely open stance, aka side saddle.

[tatertot]

5 hours ago, dlygrisse said:

He putts side saddle, outside of his foot, he doesn't straddle it like croquet.  He just hits it with the end of the putter, which is legal.   

 

PGA TOUR - Sam Snead side-saddle putting instruction - Bing video

He's using the putter with a 90 degree shaft angle and the putter head is longer than it is wide, both are illegal.

[jldelta]

4 hours ago, tatertot said:

He's using the putter with a 90 degree shaft angle and the putter head is longer than it is wide, both are illegal.

 

Snead's putter looks like a standard model of that era - my Dad had an almost identical one - with the exception of the long grip :

 

Clearly not a 90 degree shaft angle: looks standard.

The putter head is indeed longer than it is wide/deep, which is both normal and legal.

[bluedot]

10 hours ago, tatertot said:

He's using the putter with a 90 degree shaft angle and the putter head is longer than it is wide, both are illegal.

 

You are mistaken.  The way a club is USED isn't illegal; the way a club is MADE is what is conforming or non-conforming. 

 

You can hold ANY club with the shaft in a vertical position to make a stroke at any time anywhere on the golf course.  And we've all seen Tour pros putt with the end of their putter when the ball is up against the rough at the edge of the collar; Singh on the 17th at TPC Sawgrass in the Players is probably the most famous.

 

The rule is that the straight part of the shaft must be at least 10* off vertical when the club is soled, and the design of the head must not be such that the club can be used with the shaft in a vertical position and remained soled; if so, the club can be required to have a larger angle off of vertical.  If memory serves, that extra requirement can be up to 25* additional degrees.  That's the part that Dechambeau's putter violated several years ago when he went back to side saddle for a little while at the beginning of the season until his putter was ruled non-conforming by the USGA; he was holding it vertically, and the heel was still on the ground.

[tatertot]

6 hours ago, jldelta said:

 

Snead's putter looks like a standard model of that era - my Dad had an almost identical one - with the exception of the long grip :

 

Clearly not a 90 degree shaft angle: looks standard.

The putter head is indeed longer than it is wide/deep, which is both normal and legal.

Clearly you're not reading all the posts.

[tatertot]

1 hour ago, bluedot said:

 

You are mistaken.  The way a club is USED isn't illegal; the way a club is MADE is what is conforming or non-conforming. 

 

You can hold ANY club with the shaft in a vertical position to make a stroke at any time anywhere on the golf course.  And we've all seen Tour pros putt with the end of their putter when the ball is up against the rough at the edge of the collar; Singh on the 17th at TPC Sawgrass in the Players is probably the most famous.

 

The rule is that the straight part of the shaft must be at least 10* off vertical when the club is soled, and the design of the head must not be such that the club can be used with the shaft in a vertical position and remained soled; if so, the club can be required to have a larger angle off of vertical.  If memory serves, that extra requirement can be up to 25* additional degrees.  That's the part that Dechambeau's putter violated several years ago when he went back to side saddle for a little while at the beginning of the season until his putter was ruled non-conforming by the USGA; he was holding it vertically, and the heel was still on the ground.

Under the spirit of the game, if somebody repeatedly used their putter in this manner, it would violate the rules.

[davidy1948]

As the OP for this topic, perhaps I can throw another question into the mix - can anyone tell me who invented the current conventional style of putting ? If you were going to invent a putting style from scratch, I can't imagine you'd start by standing side on to the hole so that you were putting blind would you ? The old photos we've all seen of the early Scottish golfers suggests they played a lot of full shots from a very open stance - probably due to the kind of equipment they had or constrictions of clothing making full swings difficult. So I would have thought it logical to adopt something similar for the shorter shots such as putting, where control and feel for distance are all important. Anyone have any insights ?

[bluedot]

2 hours ago, tatertot said:

Under the spirit of the game, if somebody repeatedly used their putter in this manner, it would violate the rules.

I understand your point, but I don't think that using a conforming club in any particular way would violate the "spirit" of the game; that's why clubs are submitted, and then judged to be conforming or not.  But that's another rabbit hole entirely.

 

Steve Stricker has always putted with the heel of his putter up.  Many, if not most, top players play bump and run shots with the heel off the ground, and though it isn't their purpose, that puts the shaft in a more vertical position.   I have a hard time imagining that as a violation of the "spirit" of the Rules, and it was and is done repeatedly, and to provide better results with a conforming club.  You might not like the way it looks, but it is all well within the Rules of Golf.

[bluedot]

3 hours ago, tatertot said:

Clearly you're not reading all the posts.

I'm confused; what other posts are you referring to?

[The Pearl]

"Side-saddle must be inferior to conventional putting because the pros aren't using it" is a classic example of an Argument from Ignornance fallacy (sometimes called the Negative Proof Fallacy).

 

The mere fact of achieving status as a PGA Tour player decreases the chances that the golfer would ever switch.