Why doesn't everyone putt sidesaddle ?

[ctmason_98]

10 hours ago, bluedot said:

 

So what do you see as the advantages of the setup and swing in conventional putting?

I don’t have any idea if there are advantages in conventional putting (advantages over what?), and don’t care. I also don’t care about side saddle putting or not. Maybe I’ll do it one day. 
 

All I was responding to was your statements about precision versus power. Depending on what you define those as, they certainly aren’t mutually exclusive. You made declarative statements about conventional putting being the worst bio mechanical position in sports for its purpose. 
 

I think that’s nonsensical. And again, goes back to the point of your use of power and precision as concepts I guess. Thanks for responding. 

 

[bluedot]

12 hours ago, ctmason_98 said:

I don’t have any idea if there are advantages in conventional putting (advantages over what?), and don’t care. I also don’t care about side saddle putting or not. Maybe I’ll do it one day. 
 

All I was responding to was your statements about precision versus power. Depending on what you define those as, they certainly aren’t mutually exclusive. You made declarative statements about conventional putting being the worst bio mechanical position in sports for its purpose. 
 

I think that’s nonsensical. And again, goes back to the point of your use of power and precision as concepts I guess. Thanks for responding. 

 

 

You are, of course, free to disagree with me.  But I don't think you can name anything else in all of sport in which a player stands parallel to the line of play and uses two hands that isn't about speed thru torque and weight shift.  It is a position meant for motion and power, and it's no surprise that so many struggle with staying still and just rocking the shoulders with conventional putting. 

 

Putting is a precise movement, much less about power than the simple accuracy of rolling the ball down an intended line toward the hole.  If "precision" doesn't work for you, then pick your own word for that.  Hitting a golf ball with a full swing, like hitting a baseball or a tennis ball, is meant to be powerful, and body motions are critical to that power; body motions are death to good putting. 

 

You can split hairs all you want about what "precision" and "power" mean, and of course there is an intended line of play and target for a powerful full swing.  But I think the fundamental point remains the same; parallel to the line of play with two hands in sports is a position adopted for power thru motion, and conventional putting demands exactly the opposite. 

 

Try the other things that have been mentioned with a conventional putting stance and motion, and let me know what you think.  Shoot some free throws with two hands across your body.  Throw some darts that way.  Go bowling and give it a try.  Toss a few paper wads toward a trash can.  Toss a softball to a kid across your body with two hands.  Anything, really, where accuracy is critical and power isn't. 

 

You aren't going to convert to side saddle, and that's fine; it ain't a magic trick, and it isn't for everybody, for several reasons.  But that doesn't change anything about the difficulty of putting conventionally relative to facing the hole and just swinging your arm in the direction that God attached it to your shoulder.

[stevehj]

I guess this is what forums are for, but when someone offers up an idea that they think might be beneficial or helpful to other golfers, there are folks that immediately try to skewer it.  Why is that? From my perspective, I am simply intrigued.  If I could putt better using this method, why wouldn't I use it?  Oh well, whatever...

 

So my question is: Is there a way to give this a try without having to invest hundreds of dollars on a uniquely designed putter?  Can you actually buy a broomstick putter and somehow bend the shaft appropriately to create a functional side saddle putter?  If that is not the best approach, is there another way to try this out?

[QuigleyDU]

Why doesn't everyone putt side saddle? The answer is simple, It looks silly and benefits are almost zero.. It may work better for someone and that is great. Lots of ways to skin the cat. But in this. Outside of anecdote and isolated individual evidences, I do not think you are able to find a measurable benefit to this method.

 

So with no measurable advantage and looking goofy. Few will be willing to do it. 

Edited May 7, 2021 by QuigleyDU

[gripandrip]

Didn't Bryson try to bring this to his game, but kept falling into issue with rule violations on the putter? Angles/loft or something like that?

[KC13]

Tried it and doesn't feel natural.  Def did not provide for result (for me that is).  

[Krt22]

29 minutes ago, QuigleyDU said:

Why doesn't everyone putt side saddle? The answer is simple, It looks silly and benefits are almost zero.. It may work better for someone and that is great. Lots of ways to skin the cat. But in this. Outside of anecdote and isolated individual evidences, I do not think you are able to find a measurable benefit to this method.

 

So with no measurable advantage and looking goofy. Few will be willing to do it. 

As much as I hate to compare to what the tour guys do, if it was truly beneficial/advantageous, you would see it out on tour. The fact that you don't is pretty telling IMHO.

[Barfolomew]

Cause my technique works just fine..... plus I can practice for extended lengths of time with no strain on the back vs guys who are side saddle and twisted or guys who are bent way over.... ouch just looks painful!

[QuigleyDU]

4 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

As much as I hate to compare to what the tour guys do, if it was truly beneficial/advantageous, you would see it out on tour. The fact that you don't is pretty telling IMHO.

That you dont really see it anywhere is telling. in the 25 years of playing golf. I can only remember one person ever putting side saddle. He did not have a game that I think anyone would want to copy.

[me05501]

The fact that you can search across ALL the pro tours and can't find anyone who has adopted this method with great success is a pretty reasonable counter-argument. If there was any general magic in it, there'd surely be a few people who are less concerned with how it looks and more concerned with how it works.

 

OTOH maybe it's like shooting free throws granny style, which was suggested to Shaq when he was struggling at the line. He said he'd rather quit than do that in a game. 

 

I think the real question is why the natural, easy-going approach to putting we all use on the practice green is so hard to take to the course. No matter the style of putting, most people can enjoy freely rolling putts of all lengths on the practice surface without a technical thought crossing their minds. Get the same players out on the course and they can become paralyzed with results-oriented thinking. It rarely makes them putt any better. 

 

If sidesaddle putting releases you from those mental games, more power do you! I think for a lot of people it would add a layer of mental dynamics to be doing something so differently and worrying about being judged by the results. 

Edited May 7, 2021 by me05501

[glk]

2 hours ago, Krt22 said:

As much as I hate to compare to what the tour guys do, if it was truly beneficial/advantageous, you would see it out on tour. The fact that you don't is pretty telling IMHO.

And if they go all woody Austin on their head with the putter what club do you use to putt with?

[garyt]

6 hours ago, stevehj said:

I guess this is what forums are for, but when someone offers up an idea that they think might be beneficial or helpful to other golfers, there are folks that immediately try to skewer it.  Why is that? From my perspective, I am simply intrigued.  If I could putt better using this method, why wouldn't I use it?  Oh well, whatever...

 

So my question is: Is there a way to give this a try without having to invest hundreds of dollars on a uniquely designed putter?  Can you actually buy a broomstick putter and somehow bend the shaft appropriately to create a functional side saddle putter?  If that is not the best approach, is there another way to try this out?

You don't have to bend the shaft. Get a straight putter shaft and the highest degree lie angle  center shafted putter head you can find, which I believe is 80*.  Put a grip on and you're good to go. 

   I've tried it a couple times, once because I'll try anything and the second time because I started playing with a guy who uses it and he's the best putter I've seen. Didn't work for me but I hate practicing putting and while I did practice with the face on putter a few times It's not something I'm going to devote a lot of time to doing. Hence I suck no matter how I putt.

[Cwing]

Interesting topic. I know what it is but had never seen someone putt side saddle.

[jldelta]

15 hours ago, stevehj said:

I guess this is what forums are for, but when someone offers up an idea that they think might be beneficial or helpful to other golfers, there are folks that immediately try to skewer it.  Why is that? From my perspective, I am simply intrigued.  If I could putt better using this method, why wouldn't I use it?  Oh well, whatever...

 

So my question is: Is there a way to give this a try without having to invest hundreds of dollars on a uniquely designed putter?  Can you actually buy a broomstick putter and somehow bend the shaft appropriately to create a functional side saddle putter?  If that is not the best approach, is there another way to try this out?

 

Just buy an old Ping B90 broomstick putter (I’ve got three* of them, but none for sale !): all you need, depending on your stance - I stand very upright & relaxed (but if you want to putt Randy Haag style, just cut it down to belly length).

 

B90s are going up in price fast, but you can still find them at very low cost ($25 or so) if you’re lucky.

 

* 1 x standard 48” B90

1 x 48” B90i (Isopur face insert)

1 x belly length B90

 

I always look at the hole when putting, but recommend mastering the side-saddle stroke first whilst looking at the ball before learning how to trust the stroke and look at the hole.

[BigEx44]

On 5/4/2021 at 7:55 AM, chipa said:

I feel like the PGA pros are a good judgement of what techniques are more efficient, so while side straddle may help some its probably only going to help certain players. After all, putting is more than just hitting where you aim with the correct speed, it's judging the break and the speed, something that no putting stroke can help with.

 

As a generally poor putter I have come to adopt a very dominant right hand stroke to mimic as much as possible tossing the ball with my right hand, albeit from the side. This helps me putt where I aim and with the speed as well.

 

1. You can't get anymore RH dominant with a putting stroke than sidesaddle.

 

2. You can't get any closer to mimicking the feel of tossing a ball with your right hand than sidesaddle.

[BigEx44]

19 hours ago, Barfolomew said:

Cause my technique works just fine..... plus I can practice for extended lengths of time with no strain on the back vs guys who are side saddle and twisted or guys who are bent way over.... ouch just looks painful!

 

Most side saddle putters have a very erect stance (I'm 6'0 and my putter length is 47 inches) - usually more erect than most traditional putters - so your point about easier on the back is generally a point FOR sidesaddle putting, not against it.  Not sure what your looking at when you say it looks twisted and painful.

[BigEx44]

20 hours ago, QuigleyDU said:

Why doesn't everyone putt side saddle? The answer is simple, It looks silly and benefits are almost zero.. It may work better for someone and that is great. Lots of ways to skin the cat. But in this. Outside of anecdote and isolated individual evidences, I do not think you are able to find a measurable benefit to this method.

 

So with no measurable advantage and looking goofy. Few will be willing to do it. 

 

a) Looking different is not looking silly.

 

b) While sidesaddle may not be for everyone - there ARE benefits:  1) See the line better with binocular vision (two eyes).  I don't have to worry about a training device meant to get my eyes over the ball/target line or whether I'm right or left eye dominant.  2) No chance of my head moving, or my body swaying, during the stroke.  3) Zero chance of a left wrist breakdown.  4) Easier to execute a SBST stroke   5) Standing taller which makes it easier on the back.  Able to practice longer or good for senior golfers.   

[QuigleyDU]

54 minutes ago, BigEx44 said:

 

a) Looking different is not looking silly.

 

b) While sidesaddle may not be for everyone - there ARE benefits:  1) See the line better with binocular vision (two eyes).  I don't have to worry about a training device meant to get my eyes over the ball/target line or whether I'm right or left eye dominant.  2) No chance of my head moving, or my body swaying, during the stroke.  3) Zero chance of a left wrist breakdown.  4) Easier to execute a SBST stroke   5) Standing taller which makes it easier on the back.  Able to practice longer or good for senior golfers.   

I am talking perception. Must think it looks silly. There is no such thing as a straight back straight through stroke. As I mentioned before the rest of your reasons are anecdotal and not measurable past personal opinion as to their benefit. 

[tm3]

22 hours ago, QuigleyDU said:

Outside of anecdote and isolated individual evidences, I do not think you are able to find a measurable benefit to this method.

 

So with no measurable advantage ......

 

Here is the "measurable advantage"

 

https://golf.com/news/sidesaddle-putting-why-sam-sneads-method-might-be-the-post-anchoing-future-of-putting/

 

IIRC, Pelz worked with some tour pros and ran them through his golf school drills.  So an elderly non-pro scoring better seems significant -- or at least it did to Pelz.

[QuigleyDU]

2 minutes ago, tm3 said:

 

Here is the "measurable advantage"

 

https://golf.com/news/sidesaddle-putting-why-sam-sneads-method-might-be-the-post-anchoing-future-of-putting/

 

IIRC, Pelz worked with some tour pros and ran them through his golf school drills.  So an elderly non-pro scoring better seems significant -- or at least it did to Pelz.

Umm.. One dude that was really good at this is the definition of anecdotal. A 2015 article and I have not seen a single side saddler since then.. Sounds like this might be the beta to the VHS.. 

Edited May 8, 2021 by QuigleyDU

[tm3]

1 minute ago, QuigleyDU said:

Umm.. A 2015 article and I have not seen a single side saddler since then.. Sounds like this might be the beta to the VHS.. 

No doubt, it is not popular, as the OP noted.  The question he posed is, why?  Still open for debate since "no measurable advantage" has been refuted.

[QuigleyDU]

11 minutes ago, tm3 said:

No doubt, it is not popular, as the OP noted.  The question he posed is, why?  Still open for debate since "no measurable advantage" has been refuted.

I am not sure that agree, but I get your point. 

[b.mattay]

I'm putting sidesaddle in 2021 for the first time, and the "line test" has shown me it is a better way to putt, for  me at least. I get way more end-over-end rolls. 

 

Through 6 rounds this year, my putts per round has been 32.6 (compared to 31.9 last year) but I'm convinced it is still a better way to putt. I'm finding with this style I don't subconsciously steer putts back online when I have the ball misaligned on the green. My GIR this year has been something like 77% as well and generally hovers in the 68-70% range. Once the green reading improves, it will be lights out. 

Edited May 8, 2021 by b.mattay

[fronesis]

Great thread.

 

Can someone who putts sidesaddle provide here, or point me elsewhere, to some basic specs of how to build such a putter, and also how to set up to putt sidesaddle?

 

From reading this thread it seems you want an 80* lie angle, but what about shaft length and grip? Are some heads better suited to such a technique? And how do you set up and execute the stroke?

 

My dad is a club builder, so I can get a putter built to any reasonable spec. I‘ve been a single-digit handicap and a poor putter for the better part of the last 3 decades, so it can’t hurt to try it. 🙂

[davidy1948]

Very interesting to read in the article quoted above that in the Pelz anecdote the guy is using a totally different grip to the one predicated by all the advocates of this style - his right hand with its back to the target rather than behind the shaft in whatever configuration you choose. Initial practice on my home green suggests this causes a very stable face indeed and induces an SBST stroke.by paralysing the muscles which might otherwise affect the stroke path. Definitely worth further experiment !

[BigEx44]

8 hours ago, fronesis said:

Great thread.

 

Can someone who putts sidesaddle provide here, or point me elsewhere, to some basic specs of how to build such a putter, and also how to set up to putt sidesaddle?

 

From reading this thread it seems you want an 80* lie angle, but what about shaft length and grip? Are some heads better suited to such a technique? And how do you set up and execute the stroke?

 

My dad is a club builder, so I can get a putter built to any reasonable spec. I‘ve been a single-digit handicap and a poor putter for the better part of the last 3 decades, so it can’t hurt to try it. 🙂

 

1) Definitely want a 80 degree lie angle.

 

2) You also want little or no  loft on the putter face.

 

3) Center shafted, face balanced putter heads are best IMHO (most people who putt sidesaddle seem to use some sort of mallet style head too)

 

4) I think you also want a putter head that is relatively heavy.  Mine is 525 grams.  Some go a bit lighter, but usually at least 450 grams.

 

5) Length and grip gets trickier as those are personal preferences.  I'm 6'0" and use a 46.5 inch putter.  That's why I usually recommend someone start with a cheap long putter from ebay that they can cut down or resell until they've zeroed in on the length they like.  One experiment I did to initially help with length was to go on a putting green and roll a bunch of golf balls to the hole with my right hand.  I then noted how erect I liked to stand, and where my feet were (together, or right foot ahead of the left).  That determined my initial length - and 8 years later I'm within a inch or so of my initial estimates - so I think it works.

 

Good luck on the journey!

[BigEx44]

21 hours ago, QuigleyDU said:

I am talking perception. Must think it looks silly. There is no such thing as a straight back straight through stroke. As I mentioned before the rest of your reasons are anecdotal and not measurable past personal opinion as to their benefit. 

Anectodal?

1) Binocular vision is obviously the best.  Otherwise, why do even traditional putters line up their putts from behind their ball using both eyes before getting into their putting setup?

2) No left wrist breakdown with SS putting is a fact.  In sidesaddle putting the left hand is on top of the putter acting as a fulcrum.  It CAN'T breakdown.  So it's not anecdotal, it's obvious.

3) And no such thing as a SBST stroke?  This sidesaddle putting training aid says otherwise.

 

4) Are you claiming being more erect isn't easier on the back?  Or, that people putting traditionally stand as erect as sidesaddle putters or people using longer putters?  The former is obvious and supported by a LOT of studies.  The latter isn't anecdotal, but it IS a generality.  Obviously there are a few sidesaddle putters who bend a lot when putting.  And there are obviously a few traditional putters who can stand more erect.  But "in general", sidesaddle putters (and those using any type of long putter) stand more erect than those putting traditionally = easier on the back.  Average length of a traditional putter is 34-35 inches.  Average length of a sidesaddle putter is 41-48 inches.  Just logic, the longer the putter, the more erect someone can stand.

 

And look.  I get it.  Sidesaddle putting is not for everyone.  Just as there are a lot of ways to swinging a golf club, there are a lot of ways to putt.  To each his own.  I'm not trying to convert anyone.  In fact, I like it that many don't want to try SS putting.  I'd rather hog the benefits for myself!!  Lol....

[Joe Duffer]

 

 

[BigEx44]

My sidesaddle stroke:

 

VID_20180614_201330493.mp4 (dropbox.com)

 

VID_20180614_201721210.mp4 (dropbox.com)

[garyt]

This is me when I gave it a try

 

Side Saddle - YouTube