Fade biased driver for average swing speed player?

[garyt]

Title says it all. I'm an older (64) 90mphss player who's looking for a current fade biased driver. I currently hit a draw which sometimes borders on a hook and teamed with a slight pull often finds me in the left rough. I'm looking for a driver that will help turn the draw into a straight/fade shot. 

  Let's get the "Take some lessons" stuff out of the way early. I had planned to take lessons indoors over the winter until covid shut things down. Now that I'm into the playing/tournament season I have no interest in taking lessons while still trying to play well.

  So are there any drivers for a slower swing guy like me that really affect ball flight. I know of the LST type models like the Ping G425 LST but probably don't have the swing to handle it. Or do I? Any slower ss guys playing an LST? Does the G425 Max with the weight in the toe really make a difference?

  With 95% of golfers like me fighting a slice I understand that there's no profit in a fade biased driver aimed at slower swingers. But are there ANY out there?

  I currently play the g400 Max in the flatter lie, open face position which helps but I still draw the ball. 

Edited May 13, 2021 by garyt

[bazinky]

I've found the Original SIm Max when clocked open to be very fade biased. 

[BackNineCollapse]

425 max CG is slightly fade biased with the weight centered, and has the largest CG movement of any of the movable weight drivers (so putting weight in the toe makes it quite fade biased).  The 400 max CG is slightly draw biased.  In terms of lateral CG location, the 425 max is slightly more toe side than the 425 LST with weight in toe on both.  The difference is the LST comes 1 degree open stock compared to the max which comes square, and the LST CG is more forward resulting in lower overall spin.

 

You need to try it, but on paper the 425 Max was made for you.

[Tampajoe3]

Check out the Callaway Epic Speed Max LS driver.  It has a little flatter lie and has the moveable weight to go along with it.  I have a similar swing speed as you.

I put the Aldila Rogue silver shaft in it which I had in the Epic Flash driver.  

[garyt]

14 minutes ago, BackNineCollapse said:

425 max CG is slightly fade biased with the weight centered, and has the largest CG movement of any of the movable weight drivers (so putting weight in the toe makes it quite fade biased).  The 400 max CG is slightly draw biased.  In terms of lateral CG location, the 425 max is slightly more toe side than the 425 LST with weight in toe on both.  The difference is the LST comes 1 degree open stock compared to the max which comes square, and the LST CG is more forward resulting in lower overall spin.

 

You need to try it, but on paper the 425 Max was made for you.

Thanks, im going to have to give it a try. Sounds perfect 

[sittingbull]

Anything Callaway sub zero will help you fade 

[jomatty]

4 hours ago, sittingbull said:

Anything Callaway sub zero will help you fade 

90 MPH and sub zero don’t seem to go together to me.

[halfsumo]

Stiffer shaft might do it. 

[2Down]

I'll second the first gen SIM MAX motion.  

 

Mine is the 10.5 with a Ventus red in regular, it has been a great combination for me.  I have a slightly higher swing speed than you and a fairly smooth style swing. 

 

I also like mine as I can take it off the fairway pretty well. so I could drop the three wood.  

[Aviador Naval]

7 minutes ago, halfsumo said:

Stiffer shaft might do it. 

 

I agree with this as potentially the easiest solution - more specifically, same basic weight but stiff flex OR stiffer tip.  I'd stay away from combining both stiffer flex and stiffer tip as that may be too much medicine.

[Valtiel]

It will all depend on why you are drawing the ball currently, there is no one size fits all answer here. The fact that you are playing your driver flatter/open and still producing a draw is concerning, because literally no piece of equipment will turn a draw that is a product of an overriding swing mechanic into a fade, and it feels likely that is the case here. At best you can straighten your draw, but if you are coming from the inside with a shut face then you have to change your delivery, nothing else will produce what you want, unless you're trying for more of a push/block fade in which case an even more open face is really the only actual solution. 

Fade biased CG might help a little bit, but this is dependent on strike location and a draw producing delivery will override this. 

[Yuck]

8 hours ago, jomatty said:

90 MPH and sub zero don’t seem to go together to me.

Actually, if you take and epic flash SZ and put a very light weight in front 2g or nothing,  install a heavier slide weight in the rear, and position towards the toe.  Shaft appropriately, and you should have a low SS fade biased driver,  get a triple diamond head, even better.

[kepeollie]

13 hours ago, BackNineCollapse said:

425 max CG is slightly fade biased with the weight centered, and has the largest CG movement of any of the movable weight drivers (so putting weight in the toe makes it quite fade biased).  The 400 max CG is slightly draw biased.  In terms of lateral CG location, the 425 max is slightly more toe side than the 425 LST with weight in toe on both.  The difference is the LST comes 1 degree open stock compared to the max which comes square, and the LST CG is more forward resulting in lower overall spin.

 

You need to try it, but on paper the 425 Max was made for you.

I agree. Plus if moving the weight to the fade setting isn’t enough, you can set it flat as well. 

[Stuart_G]

16 hours ago, garyt said:

  With 95% of golfers like me fighting a slice I understand that there's no profit in a fade biased driver aimed at slower swingers. But are there ANY out there?

  I currently play the g400 Max in the flatter lie, open face position which helps but I still draw the ball. 

 

C.G. based bias is pretty minimal for most.   The biggest bias comes from face angle adjustment s and if you still have issues after opening up the face than you need to look for something else besides the head selection.   Stiffer shaft, heavier shaft, heavier swing weight are all possibilities (although no guarantees that any of them will help).   And that's assuming you're getting a good consistent center face impact position.   If you have tendencies for toe side impact that can cause an increase in draw spin that you can only effectively address by fixing the impact location first before doing anything else.

 

I understand not wanting to do any major swing work in the middle of the season but if the problem is mostly limited to the driver you may not need any major swing changes or have to put a lot of work into implementing some tweaks to help.  So it couldn't hurt to see a pro and see what they have to say.  Worst case you can always decide to put off implementing the suggested changes until you're at a point in the season where it's less intrusive on the game.

Edited May 14, 2021 by Stuart_G

[garyt]

11 hours ago, halfsumo said:

Stiffer shaft might do it. 

Going to try that today

[Myherobobhope]

You might also want to consider going up a size in grips... throwing a midsize grip on the driver might help quiet your hands and help you keep your club face open through the swing... You don't need to go full bryson and put superstroke grips on your driver... but I really like the MCC+4 grips on my woods... 

[garyt]

10 hours ago, Valtiel said:

It will all depend on why you are drawing the ball currently, there is no one size fits all answer here. The fact that you are playing your driver flatter/open and still producing a draw is concerning, because literally no piece of equipment will turn a draw that is a product of an overriding swing mechanic into a fade, and it feels likely that is the case here. At best you can straighten your draw, but if you are coming from the inside with a shut face then you have to change your delivery, nothing else will produce what you want, unless you're trying for more of a push/block fade in which case an even more open face is really the only actual solution. 

Fade biased CG might help a little bit, but this is dependent on strike location and a draw producing delivery will override this. 

 I'm not sure if I come from the inside with a closed face or not. I likely am on some shots which start right and come back to the center. Those are great and have no reason to change that. But a decent % are slight pulls that feel OTT with a closed face. These start right down the middle or very slightly left and draw into trouble. Then there's the occasional maybe once a  round that's big OTT and hooked off the planet. Nothing will help those. But if A club could negate the draw/produce a fade on the slight pulls I'd be good to go. I may just go get a driver only lesson and see how it goes.

[garyt]

Just now, Myherobobhope said:

You might also want to consider going up a size in grips... throwing a midsize grip on the driver might help quiet your hands and help you keep your club face open through the swing... You don't need to go full bryson and put superstroke grips on your driver... but I really like the MCC+4 grips on my woods... 

I tried the Golf Pride G2 jumbos for awhile. May  revisit that.

[NRJyzr]

Two thoughts occur to me....

 

First, get any driver you're interested in, buy it at a higher loft than you require, and crank it fully open.

 

Second, if its practical, go up an iteration in driver shaft weight; if you're using a 60-something gram shaft, get a 70-something (and so on).  The added weight in the same flex *could* help tame the draw action.  Extra emphasis on "could."   

 

Edit:  a few grams of lead tape to increase the headweight might also be a nice touch...

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by NRJyzr

[Valtiel]

9 hours ago, garyt said:

 I'm not sure if I come from the inside with a closed face or not. I likely am on some shots which start right and come back to the center. Those are great and have no reason to change that. But a decent % are slight pulls that feel OTT with a closed face. These start right down the middle or very slightly left and draw into trouble. Then there's the occasional maybe once a  round that's big OTT and hooked off the planet. Nothing will help those. But if A club could negate the draw/produce a fade on the slight pulls I'd be good to go. I may just go get a driver only lesson and see how it goes.

Yeah if you're starting the ball to the right and it is coming back left when struck out of the middle of the face then your face is pointing in that direction (face angle determines start line) and that angle is closed to the path you are creating (face to path relationship determines curvature). The problem is that the fix/bandaid for when that whole equation shifts to left and you get the pull draw will inherently compromise your stock draw shot. I'll explain by breaking down all the possible equipment solutions you can apply:

- A more open face angle. All things being equal and free from any additional compensations in your swing, a more open face angle at address will create a more open face angle at impact. This could help your pull draw miss curve less, but would by definition also do the same to your stock "good" shot by presenting the same slightly more open clubface which would result in a shot that starts right but wants to stay there more. 
- Heavy fade bias weighting. Instead of influencing ball flight with face angle changes, manipulating flight with weight bias exploits the horizontal gear effects of what would be considered controlled "miss hits". Moving weight towards the heel/toe shifts the sweet spot in that direction by a few millimeters (how much varies on the driver and it's adjustment range). The idea behind fade bias weighting is to make a slight toe strike, which would inherently impart a little draw spin, behave more like a center strike. This means that your center strike now behaves like a slight heel strike which will impart fade spin. However the problem above is still the same in that it has the potential to straighten out the pull draw a bit, but it would also the same to your normal "good" draw. 
- Larger grips. Different mechanism but the same issue as the face angle adjustment. Larger grips have the potential to reduce your rate of face closure which shifts you towards striking the ball with a slightly more open face. Good for the miss, bad for the stock shot. 
- Lie angle adjustment. Lie angle has a comparatively minimal effect on right/left bias with lower lofted clubs and is more of a comfort thing while also having the potential to shift strike location slightly. Not really applicable here. 
- Stiffer shaft.  This is very feel dependent and should not be used to correct a significant miss. Wrong tool for the wrong job. 

These are the fairly objective adjustments that usually have more predictable results, as much you can expect in golf anyway, so you may want to explore some of the more subjective self-fitting areas to see if you can gain consistency and reduce your miss at the source. Aside from your standard mechanical swing faults, difficulty in managing your path and face angle can potentially be helped with the proper driver fit. I know for me personally that when a driver gets too light I have a really hard time managing my path coming down and I will tend to pull/hook the ball. Additional weight can for some aid in getting the club on a more consistent path in transition. If we look at the extremes, a club that is severely light would be all over the place in terms of path for most people and produce erratic results, whereas a club that is severely heavy would for most people tend to fall down to the inside in transition and get stuck there resulting in pushes/blocks. Finding your Goldilocks zone between too light and too heavy gives you the best chance at delivering the club as consistently as your mechanics will allow, so I recommend picking up a roll of lead tape and doing some experimenting on the range. 

For a deeper dive, check out Howard's driver tune up thread;
 

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by Valtiel

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, garyt said:

I tried the Golf Pride G2 jumbos for awhile. May  revisit that.

 

If it didn't work out the first time I wouldn't recommend trying it again.   The only way the larger size would help with get rid of or reduce the draw/hook is if it causes excess grip or forearm tension.   And when that happens it's pretty common for there to be other potentially negative side effects to that.

 

[Myherobobhope]

1 hour ago, garyt said:

I tried the Golf Pride G2 jumbos for awhile. May  revisit that.

I'd suggest trying the MCC+4 or something similar (they can just add wraps under your bottom hand) but I've really liked having my grips NOT taper... 

[garyt]

8 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Yeah if you're starting the ball to the right and it is coming back left when struck out of the middle of the face then your face is pointing in that direction (face angle determines start line) and that angle is closed to the path you are creating (face to path relationship determines curvature). The problem is that the fix/bandaid for when that whole equation shifts to left and you get the pull draw will inherently compromise your stock draw shot. I'll explain by breaking down all the possible equipment solutions you can apply:

- A more open face angle. All things being equal and free from any additional compensations in your swing, a more open face angle at address will create a more open face angle at impact. This could help your pull draw miss curve less, but would by definition also do the same to your stock "good" shot by presenting the same slightly more open clubface which would result in a shot that starts right but wants to stay there more. 
- Heavy fade bias weighting. Instead of influencing ball flight with face angle changes, manipulating flight with weight bias exploits the horizontal gear effects of what would be considered controlled "miss hits". Moving weight towards the heel/toe shifts the sweet spot in that direction by a few millimeters (how much varies on the driver and it's adjustment range). The idea behind fade bias weighting is to make a slight toe strike, which would inherently impart a little draw spin, behave more like a center strike. This means that your center strike now behaves like a slight heel strike which will impart fade spin. However the problem above is still the same in that it has the potential to straighten out the pull draw a bit, but it would also the same to your normal "good" draw. 
- Larger grips. Different mechanism but the same issue as the face angle adjustment. Larger grips have the potential to reduce your rate of face closure which shifts you towards striking the ball with a slightly more open face. Good for the miss, bad for the stock shot. 
- Lie angle adjustment. Lie angle has a comparatively minimal effect on right/left bias with lower lofted clubs and is more of a comfort thing while also having the potential to shift strike location slightly. Not really applicable here. 
- Stiffer shaft.  This is very feel dependent and should not be used to correct a significant miss. Wrong tool for the wrong job. 

These are the fairly objective adjustments that usually have more predictable results, as much you can expect in golf anyway, so you may want to explore some of the more subjective self-fitting areas to see if you can gain consistency and reduce your miss at the source. Aside from your standard mechanical swing faults, difficulty in managing your path and face angle can potentially be helped with the proper driver fit. I know for me personally that when a driver gets too light that I have a really hard time managing my path coming down and I will tend to pull/hook the ball. Additional weight can for some can aid in getting the club on a more consistent path in transition. If we look at the extremes, a club that is severely light would be all over the place in terms of path for most people and produce erratic results, whereas a club that is severely heavy would for most people tend to fall down to the inside in transition and get stuck there resulting in pushes/blocks. Finding your Goldilocks zone between too light and too heavy gives you the best chance at delivering the club as consistently as your mechanics will allow, so I recommend picking up a roll of lead tape and doing some experimenting on the range. 

For a deeper dive, check out Howard's driver tune up thread;
 

 

Great post thanks. 

[garyt]

So I got out today and dug out an old Wishon 949MC driver head I had. I've always read that head is fade biased and my head was 1* open also. Put in an Aldila Gamer stiff shaft  and off I went. 

   Surprisingly, it worked great. Did not hit a single draw. Maybe one straight shot and the rest a small fade. As Valtiel said, a couple that I started right then faded right putting me in the right rough. But once I realized I could count on the fade I just aimed more left (which is normally very scary for me) and let it come back to center.

   The only problem is that I changed 3 things, the head, went from R to S shaft and a slightly larger grip. I'm quite sure it was mostly the head, though. I really think a G425 Max or maybe a G425LST or Cally Max LS would work well and probably give me a few more yards then the 2004ish era Wishon.

   I need to get out and demo a 425 Max.

[Stuart_G]

7 hours ago, garyt said:

  The only problem is that I changed 3 things, the head, went from R to S shaft and a slightly larger grip.

 

So shaft weight, playing length, and head weight (swing weight) did not change?

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Stuart_G

[garyt]

2 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

So shaft weight, playing length, and head weight (swing weight) did not change?

 

Yea, that's another thing I forgot about . Shaft was probably a few grams heavier. no idea about head weight or SW.  I do know that Wishon head has been a fade monster in any shaft I've had it in.

[SwooshLT]

2 hours ago, garyt said:

Yea, that's another thing I forgot about . Shaft was probably a few grams heavier. no idea about head weight or SW.  I do know that Wishon head has been a fade monster in any shaft I've had it in.

 

 

Great thread to hear your results!  Keep up the work

[Bridges]

The Epic Max LS is not like the Sub Zero models of years past, no really that is not mumbo jumbo. It is a stretched out max forgivness design that has no left bias and it is adjustable for fade bias if needed. The LS does mean lower spin but it does not perform like a SZ model in flight or forgiveness. 

[garyt]

So I have an 8* Wishon 919 THI head with a 1* open face. Not an ideal loft for me at my current age. I put it in a Grafaloy Pro Launch Blue R at 43". It was the only R shaft I had left. I hit this thing great but lose distance due to the lack of loft and short shaft. But absolutely no hooks and I can swing as hard as I want at it.  I'd love to get the same head in about 10*.

    

[PEI_Golfer]

Aside from the "lessons" part, why not just hit a fade?  If you already have a pull, then you likely have an OTT motion in that swing.  A fade from that point is just set up and swing.