Funny Story....Rule disagreement on 9th hole...I wanted to quit Golf

[Exactice808]

Hey Gang, just wanted to share a crazy funny rules story.

 

So I have been playing junk in general and losing confidence, but thats golf.

 

Prior week we had a little rules tussle with our long time group (all close friends).  The other team hit out of the wrong tee box, partner and I noticed WELL after they were hitting.  We made the comment eh, you guys hit out of the wrong box. Our buddy got SUPER mad at us thinking we did it on purpose waiting for both of them to hit out of Turn.  For 3 holes my 2 buddies were pouting and being babies.  But it was so innocent and stupid. (And funny though watching them argue about it)

 

 

OK moving on to this past Friday. 

On the 9th hole I choked, 

 

Hit into the water (1), Drop (2),  Hit it up the fairway (3),  Hit my shot over the green OB (4).  Cant go back since the course is backed up.  So I took the new OB rule (2stroke Penalty, drop closes to OB no closer to hole), (5,6). Hit (7) on the green 2 putt. (9).  RIGHT?  (Please confirm this score for me)

 

 

Ok so my opponent's teammate choked as well and took a 9, my buddy had a 5 and the other opponent had a 6 so we won the hole, 5&9 vs 6&9.   Making the Turn riding with my opponent buddy (The one that got mad at us the prior week saying we called them out of tee box on purpose), Said I counted wrong. It was a 10 not a 9.  This changes everything on the bets. (The guy that took 9 with me I was losing so I would lose the push, the team we were losing 1 down, so we evened out, But if it was a 10 then we tie the hole and lose the side)

 

He said, I would be laying 5 (not 4) at the OB stakes now, and take 2 additional strokes penalty from there, So now Laying 7.  Hitting 8 on the green, 2 putt 10?  I was all flustered at that point... Playing junk anyways.  NOW all this time it made me question if I have been counting my strokes WRONG with the new rule about taking the 2 stroke penalty.  This actually got to me. I had such a bad attitude and basically gave up.  We argued in the cart, but I didnt care anymore. I told my playing partner,  Im ready to go on Youtube and take a chop saw to my bag of clubs and quit.  (Yeah I was being a big baby).

 

 

Anyways..... Long story short. Its a 9 right NOT a 10?  Secondly.  It was a hellava distraction, to mess up an opponent by throwing a rules question into the mix right or wrong. That could be a really rough "gamesmanship" move huh?  Doing the eh..... Thats not right I think you violated the rules. For 2 holes I was trying to sort it out but could not figure it out and gave up the rest of the round.  

 

Side question outside of the actual score..... Do people throw rules violations maliciously to mess with opponents?  I goin to check youtube .... but is there Malice on the PGA/LPGA Tour?  That really messed me up LOL and cant imagine if that would not be a hidden technique for someone?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Exactice808

[Colin L]

You scored 9.  You hit the ball 6 times plus 3 penalty strokes, 1 for the penalty area relief and 2 for the alternative to stroke and distance.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Colin L

[Mitchell]

E,

The above post is correct. Next time you get flustered on course, just think that could be getting a ticket for parking at bank while quickly running into Roger Dunn’s- should put being on course into perspective😀 Prayers 🙏 that you and your ohana are well, bruddah 👊🏻!

As far as rules and gamesmanship, Seve and Azinger got along fabulously on course😂. I was glad to see they made peace and became close during Seve’s illness.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Mitchell
typos

[Augster]

The easiest way not to get flustered by rules questions and be immune to gamesmanship is to know the rules. You should KNOW without a doubt you shot 9. 
 

When you know you’re on the side of the rules, you tell your questioner to show you in the rules where they are correct. 
 

In your situation, it’s just easiest to count as Colin said. Count how many times you hit it, then add penalty strokes. 
 

Once you know that, you ask your opponent to explain to you how it could possibly be 10. 
 

Last thing, I’m assuming you’re playing match play, and if so, last week when your opponents were playing from the wrong tee you could either allow the shots as is without mentioning it, or require them to rehit from the correct spot without penalty. 

[Exactice808]

1 hour ago, Mitchell said:

E,

The above post is correct. Next time you get flustered on course, just think that could be getting a ticket for parking at bank while quickly running into Roger Dunn’s- should put being on course into perspective😀 Prayers 🙏 that you and your ohana are well, bruddah 👊🏻!

As far as rules and gamesmanship, Seve and Azinger got along fabulously on course😂. I was glad to see they made peace and became close during Seve’s illness.

 

Thanks my friend! To you and your family I wish them health and happiness.

 

I had another buddy, I swear I posted this before, that used to teach me lessons on the course about rules and would mess with me ALL the darn time LOL.  BUT those days have passed as I have been better with the rules. I have been playing such bad golf lately that anything sets me off LOL so trying to find the humor and joy again has been a challenge.

 

Im going to have read up about Seve and Azinger This might be a fun story to share with them this week when we play.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Exactice808]

1 hour ago, Augster said:

The easiest way not to get flustered by rules questions and be immune to gamesmanship is to know the rules. You should KNOW without a doubt you shot 9. 
 

When you know you’re on the side of the rules, you tell your questioner to show you in the rules where they are correct. 
 

In your situation, it’s just easiest to count as Colin said. Count how many times you hit it, then add penalty strokes. 
 

Once you know that, you ask your opponent to explain to you how it could possibly be 10. 
 

Last thing, I’m assuming you’re playing match play, and if so, last week when your opponents were playing from the wrong tee you could either allow the shots as is without mentioning it, or require them to rehit from the correct spot without penalty. 

 

So that particular guy is the rules guy in our group (we may have to audit him now HAHA)..... we generally ask him when its a questionable ruling. So when he made his case to me, It sounded right at the time and TOTALLY messed up my thoughts LOL.  I agree, I failed to be confident in my knowledge of the rules, BUT thats again when I thought....."Sonnva...he is messing with me from last weeks stupid rules crap" HAHA. And got even more flustered.

 

Anyways.... Just thought I would share the stupid things that happens on the course and like you stated, knowing the rules is a great tool and could help your confidence in less then optimal situations.

 

 

*edit*  

For the wrong teebox, correct  we just made them retee from the correct box and play on.  (Match Play) if it was stroke play it was 2 stroke penalty right? But man he was mad at us LOL!

 

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Exactice808

[Exactice808]

1 hour ago, Colin L said:

You scored 9.  You hit the ball 6 times plus 3 penalty strokes, 1 for the penalty area relief and 2 for the alternative to stroke and distance.

Thank you so much!  I have something stupid to say.... I never heard this way of counting strokes before, seriously.... That TOTALLY makes sense though! OMG.  Im going to use this going forward.

 

So now I didnt have to get into the weeds.  Holy smokes!!!! Light bulb. God I love these forums! 

[ChaosTheory]

I thought that using the new local rule, for ob over the green, you go back to the fairway, two club lengths into it?  Not sure about no nearer the hole; I thought it was just go back until you get to the fairway?

 

edit: it’s no nearer the hole. On the fairway.  Since you didn’t drop by the rules, I don’t know what your score was.

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by Snowman9000

[tatertot]

10 vs 9? Maybe institute a triple bogey or better to win the hole rule to simplify your game? 😆

[cardoustie]

How does this guy add a magical stroke?  Pretend it’s a lateral.  4 in, hitting 6 if red.. sorry PA.  Hitting 7 with crazy new ob rule (1 more PS)

 

there are a lot of guys that fancy themselves rules guru’s and are completely clueless .... happens a lot in tournaments I’m in 

[Exactice808]

21 minutes ago, Snowman9000 said:

I thought that using the new local rule, for ob over the green, you go back to the fairway, two club lengths into it?  Not sure about no nearer the hole; I thought it was just go back until you get to the fairway?

 

edit: it’s no nearer the hole. On the fairway.  Since you didn’t drop by the rules, I don’t know what your score was.

 

Keep going,  Im here to learn at this point.

 

out of time, Was I supposed to go backwards? Rather nearest relief no closer to the hole? 

[Shilgy]

Did the club you were playing at enact the Local rule on OB? Our course did not and it is not an actual Rule of Golf it is an allowable Local Rule.

[Exactice808]

4 minutes ago, cardoustie said:

How does this guy add a magical stroke?  Pretend it’s a lateral.  4 in, hitting 6 if red.. sorry PA.  Hitting 7 with crazy new ob rule (1 more PS)

 

there are a lot of guys that fancy themselves rules guru’s and are completely clueless .... happens a lot in tournaments I’m in 

So let me explain what he said, that made sense in the heat and expeditious move to the next hole after taking a darn 9.

 

 

When I hit 4 over the green OB. To bring the ball back into play that is 1 stroke.  And then the new local rule is to play it where it went out plus 2 strokes.

 

So to bring it live its 5 and then add 2 strokes to makes 7.  So hitting 8 onto the green and 2 putts 10.  That is what he said. It made sense "bringing" the ball back into play as a stroke I guess. And then 2 stroke penalty for the new rule? 

[cardoustie]

I played in two club c’s this year, one that allowed this local rule and one that didn’t .....

 

1 minute ago, Shilgy said:

Did the club you were playing at enact the Local rule on OB? Our course did not and it is not an actual Rule of Golf it is an allowable Local Rule.

 

[Exactice808]

3 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Did the club you were playing at enact the Local rule on OB? Our course did not and it is not an actual Rule of Golf it is an allowable Local Rule.

Public course not private I assume its enacted locally in general. 

[Shilgy]

Just now, Exactice808 said:

Public course not private I assume its enacted locally in general. 

They probably don’t care what you do then.  In the absence of knowing I would not have it in play.  If you choose to not go back because other groups are there I would concede the hole.

 

Also, in the previous round where you mentioned they played from the wrong tee…..ignoring the fact I don’t understand how you could notice they BOTH had teed from the wrong marker after the fact but not play that wrong tee yourselves…..did you actually penalize them for that or just mention it?  Just trying to understand how they could be so upset if you just mentioned it and didn’t penalize them.  I would have let them just retee from the proper box in a friendly match. Even if there was cash involved.

[ChaosTheory]

22 minutes ago, Exactice808 said:

Keep going,  Im here to learn at this point.

 

out of time, Was I supposed to go backwards? Rather nearest relief no closer to the hole? 

IANARO, but I’ve seen this case covered in the golf press.  You go back to the fairway, no nearer the hole.  Then you go up to six feet or two lengths into the fairway.  (Not sure which, so say six feet.)  

 

So if you didn’t do that, I would think you committed an infraction of some sort.  
 

I actually had this happen to me in the league championship on a par 3.  We had been instructed that if in doubt, play two balls, which I did.  One was a re-tee, the other was a drop in the closely mown area in front of the green, plus two strokes.  I made the same score with both balls so it was moot.  Caused some debate afterwards though, especially because I won my flight.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Snowman9000

[antip]

10 minutes ago, Snowman9000 said:

IANARO, but I’ve seen this case covered in the golf press.  You go back to the fairway, no nearer the hole.  Then you go up to six feet or two lengths into the fairway.  (Not sure which, so say six feet.)  

 

So if you didn’t do that, I would think you committed an infraction of some sort.  

There is no requirement to go back to the fairway. MLR E-5 prescribes a (potentially large) arc of relief area in this OB behind the green type of situation - a drop can occur anywhere in that no closer to the hole arc - see MLR E-5 Diagram 3.

Edited May 18, 2021 by antip
minor addition

[Exactice808]

9 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

They probably don’t care what you do then.  In the absence of knowing I would not have it in play.  If you choose to not go back because other groups are there I would concede the hole.

 

Also, in the previous round where you mentioned they played from the wrong tee…..ignoring the fact I don’t understand how you could notice they BOTH had teed from the wrong marker after the fact but not play that wrong tee yourselves…..did you actually penalize them for that or just mention it?  Just trying to understand how they could be so upset if you just mentioned it and didn’t penalize them.  I would have let them just retee from the proper box in a friendly match. Even if there was cash involved.

That is an option, But The opponents didnt care about that, more about the counting of strokes. I mean we could have gone back but it wouldnt have been pretty with the marshals on the 9th hole and the guys in the fairway.

 

 

On the Other portion.  The whole story.

 

1) So buddy and I are sitting in the cart, tee box high;  Markers look like this sorta,  the face are painted. 

Just not painted clearly,  It is yellow with a white trim on one with the course emblem in the middle. The other one is white with the emblem in the middle.  Now imagine you are looking straight on on from the carts so we cant see the faces only the brown sides.  Its not red, white, black bulbs thats clearly definable if NOT they should have know themselves.

 

We are both sitting in the cart on the cart path, We are not on the tee box with them, They both hit and finish, We grab our clubs and walk up to the tee box and thats when we notice the "faces" of the markers are Yellow with white Trim, the further tees are White with the course emblem.

 

So it was not easy to see. 

 

 

When we called them out thats when he got mad at us. We didnt know the rules where yet,  But we told them just hit from the whites (retee) Fortunately that was the correct choice after all was said and done, BUT they sure implied that we did it on purpose.  Which we honestly didnt do.  

[sui generis]

33 minutes ago, Exactice808 said:

new local rule

 

Here's a CliffNotes version:

 

BALL LOST or OUT OF BOUNDS When a ball has been lost outside a penalty area or is out of bounds, as an alternative to stroke-and-distance relief, with a two-stroke penalty, Model Local Rule E-5 may be used: 

 

    Estimate the spot where the ball was lost or went out of bounds. 

 

    From that spot, take an arc equidistant from the flagstick towards the fairway. Extend that arc by two club-lengths into the fairway.

 

    Drop anywhere in the general area behind that arc.

 

 ☛ This Local Rule is only for a ball lost outside a penalty area or for a ball that is out of bounds. It cannot be used for an unplayable ball or for a ball that is penalty area or lost in a penalty area.

Edited May 18, 2021 by sui generis

[antip]

3 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Here's a CliffNotes version:

 

BALL LOST or OUT OF BOUNDS When a ball has been lost outside a penalty area or is out of bounds, as an alternative to stroke-and-distance relief, with a two-stroke penalty, Model Local Rule E-5 may be used: 

 

    Estimate the spot where the ball was lost or went out of bounds. 

 

    From that spot, take an arc equidistant from the flagstick towards the fairway. Extend that arc by two club-lengths into the fairway.

 

    Drop anywhere in the general area behind that arc.

 

 ☛ This Local Rule is only for a ball lost outside a penalty area or for a ball that is out of bounds. It cannot be used for an unplayable ball or for a ball that is penalty area or lost in a penalty area.

Mr C. Notes saved around 5 pages on the published version.😀

Edited May 18, 2021 by antip
Forgot the smiley face

[sui generis]

3 minutes ago, antip said:

Mr C. Notes saved around 5 pages on the published version.😀

 

The only thing as concise is the USGA 1:30 video clip. I'll confess to have been totally mystified by the text of E-5. This version is my best translation. 😉

[charli]

You both should have picked up your ball 

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, sui generis said:

 

The only thing as concise is the USGA 1:30 video clip. I'll confess to have been totally mystified by the text of E-5. This version is my best translation. 😉

A camel is a horse designed by a committee.

[Exactice808]

 

2 hours ago, Snowman9000 said:

IANARO, but I’ve seen this case covered in the golf press.  You go back to the fairway, no nearer the hole.  Then you go up to six feet or two lengths into the fairway.  (Not sure which, so say six feet.)  

 

So if you didn’t do that, I would think you committed an infraction of some sort.  
 

I actually had this happen to me in the league championship on a par 3.  We had been instructed that if in doubt, play two balls, which I did.  One was a re-tee, the other was a drop in the closely mown area in front of the green, plus two strokes.  I made the same score with both balls so it was moot.  Caused some debate afterwards though, especially because I won my flight.

@Snowman9000 @sui generis @antip

 

Here is the hole layout,  Flag, found ball and drop out of haste.  Its not perfect, but that was the closest to OB but no closer to hole.  Every thing past the OB what you see below is the practice area as well as the practice putting green.

 

So to be clear,  out of haste and not going back to the original shot 4 location, I did NOT have to go back to the fairway right,  Just the arc of the OB no closer to the hole?

Edited May 18, 2021 by Exactice808

[rogolf]

14 minutes ago, Exactice808 said:

 

@Snowman9000 @sui generis @antip

 

Here is the hole layout,  Flag, found bound and drop out of haste.  Its not perfect, but that was the closest to OB but no closer to hole.  Every thing pas the OB what you see below is the practice area as well as the practice putting green.

 

So not to be extra clear,  out of haste and not going back to the original shot 4 location, I did NOT have to go back to the fairway right,  Just the arc of the OB no closer to the hole?

Not "arc of the OB", but an arc using the flagstick as centre and the spot where the ball went OB as radius.  From the picture it seems that you could have dropped closer to the hole than you did, or even gone to the right.  No breach of the Local Rule for dropping where you did, it is still part of the permitted relief area.

Edited May 18, 2021 by rogolf

[antip]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

Not "arc of the OB", but an arc using the flagstick as centre and the spot where the ball went OB as radius.  From the picture it seems that you could have dropped closer to the hole than you did, or even gone to the right.  No breach of the Local Rule for dropping where you did, it is still part of the permitted relief area.

I agree with the key points here. One nuance though, I don't think going to the right was an option because the potential fairway reference point in that direction appears clearly further from the crossed OB edge than going to the left (direction drop was taken). The picture is quite similar to the MLR E-5 Diagram 3 in the Official Guide. 

[Sawgrass]

When an opponent tees off from outside the teeing area, you have the right to immediately require them to play from within the teeing area.  When two opponents do this before you object, you no longer have the right to recall the first player’s ball, only the second player (as the first player’s shot was not immediately recalled).

[antip]

1 hour ago, Sawgrass said:

When an opponent tees off from outside the teeing area, you have the right to immediately require them to play from within the teeing area.  When two opponents do this before you object, you no longer have the right to recall the first player’s ball, only the second player (as the first player’s shot was not immediately recalled).

Agree, unless this is that obscure creature in 21.4 Three Ball Match Play. Then you can get player 1 and player 2 to replay, you are playing against their second balls, but player 2 is playing against player 1's first ball - player 1 must keep two separate balls in play in the separate matches. 

Has anyone ever indulged in this creature? 

[Augster]

7 hours ago, Snowman9000 said:

IANARO, but I’ve seen this case covered in the golf press.  You go back to the fairway, no nearer the hole.  Then you go up to six feet or two lengths into the fairway.  (Not sure which, so say six feet.)  

 

So if you didn’t do that, I would think you committed an infraction of some sort.  
 

I actually had this happen to me in the league championship on a par 3.  We had been instructed that if in doubt, play two balls, which I did.  One was a re-tee, the other was a drop in the closely mown area in front of the green, plus two strokes.  I made the same score with both balls so it was moot.  Caused some debate afterwards though, especially because I won my flight.

There is no requirement to drop in the fairway. It is only part of E-5 because, in most cases, it’s the most advantageous drop. You are allowed to drop anywhere on the arc between point of entry (for OB) and 2CL’s in the fairway, no closer. 
 

While almost all the time a player will drop in the fairway, some of the time it is better strategy to drop somewhere in the rough depending on hole design, angles, tree locations etc.