Florida volunteer golf lawsuit

[Rob G 89]

Can anyone with a legal background comment? Is the county busted?

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2021/06/05/free-golf-volunteers-florida-lawsuit/?utm_campaign=trueAnthem+Manual&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR2T8S285KksulDW-sWD_ibxlGSwlbkTReLO8jmx-hdw4YCBneYc8B6nd_g

[bcski]

Will be dependent on many things.  Without reading the full filing, and knowing the precedents in this county and state it is hard to comment on.  It is possible it will be heard in a federal court, not a local jurisdiction.

 

I am assuming the county followed standard business practices and consulted with the county's labor attorney in drafting the policies...

[J13]

Having over 600 volunteers is not a good sign, especially working regular work schedules.   My guess is they are in deep Sh$%.  Any judge, especially federal, will see through this scheme in about 2 minutes.

[Rosey31]

Depending on how this goes it could change how golf courses and other businesses that rely heavy on a volunteer staff for operation. Every golf course I used to work at always had volunteers to help with certain duties such as starters, rangers, range attendants etc. 

 

If you only have 3 people in the lawsuit out of the 600 who were classified as volunteers, I think this is a case of someone being upset because they were asked not to come back and get free golf any more.  

 

[J13]

17 minutes ago, mantismike said:

Depending on how this goes it could change how golf courses and other businesses that rely heavy on a volunteer staff for operation. Every golf course I used to work at always had volunteers to help with certain duties such as starters, rangers, range attendants etc. 

 

If you only have 3 people in the lawsuit out of the 600 who were classified as volunteers, I think this is a case of someone being upset because they were asked not to come back and get free golf any more.  

 

 

 

Yeah but do you really think all 600 of those "volunteer's" aren't getting some money under the table along with golf?  Especially in regards to golf, the optics are not good. 

[Rosey31]

No I don't think any of these "volunteers" are getting money under the table. If they are then that is a different issue and should be addressed. Most public courses and especially county ones have such tight budgets and need these volunteers to help run the facility. The lawsuit states that they feel the roles that they were asked to do would be a paid role at a private club. Which is completely false. At one of the private clubs I used to work at we ran volunteers to do those same roles because I had a small staff budget and wanted to keep the pay to attract better seasoned shop staff. At another club we had no volunteers because we wanted to keep play restricted to members only. 

I am very interested to see how this plays out because it will change how a lot of clubs and courses operate. 

Edited June 6, 2021 by mantismike
added comments

[Loki]

I find this lawsuit interesting in that I know a lot of courses offer free/discounted golf for a starter or a ranger as they aren't manual labor. Expecting a volunteer to clean carts, etc. is a little over the top in my opinion.

[lefthack]

How do you volunteer, then expect payment? Some people's children, damn.

[J13]

23 minutes ago, lefthack said:

How do you volunteer, then expect payment? Some people's children, damn.

 

You didn't read the article did you.  These aren't kids

[J13]

1 hour ago, Loki said:

I find this lawsuit interesting in that I know a lot of courses offer free/discounted golf for a starter or a ranger as they aren't manual labor. Expecting a volunteer to clean carts, etc. is a little over the top in my opinion.

 

It's WAY over the top from the sounds of it and all a way to get around paying taxes on labor along with actually money.  We have labor laws for a reason and it's to protect the workers who are being taken advantage of, especially elderly which i'm guessing is a majority of these volunteers.

[dokex]

6 minutes ago, J13 said:

 

It's WAY over the top from the sounds of it and all a way to get around paying taxes on labor along with actually money.  We have labor laws for a reason and it's to protect the workers who are being taken advantage of, especially elderly which i'm guessing is a majority of these volunteers.

Didn't this come up years ago in Myrtle Beach? The issue then was not collecting payroll and other taxes, IIRC.

[lefthack]

23 minutes ago, J13 said:

 

You didn't read the article did you.  These aren't kids

 

And yet somehow, they are someone's children. Amazing.

Edited June 6, 2021 by lefthack

[lefthack]

2 hours ago, J13 said:

Having over 600 volunteers is not a good sign, especially working regular work schedules.   My guess is they are in deep Sh$%.  Any judge, especially federal, will see through this scheme in about 2 minutes.

 

The issue is it's volunteer. You signed up for it, but you can walk away any time. The issue is they like the free golf, but now it's not enough. So leave. But when told they aren't needed when they liked the free golf, now they want to be paid.

 

It's no different than unpaid internship. You signed up, you can leave any time.

[Greenie]

4 minutes ago, lefthack said:

 

The issue is it's volunteer. You signed up for it, but you can walk away any time. The issue is they like the free golf, but now it's not enough. So leave. But when told they aren't needed when they liked the free golf, now they want to be paid.

 

It's no different than unpaid internship. You signed up, you can leave any time.

I agree with this. ^^^^

 

I think there is a bigger issue here though. Is this a way to get around paying taxes on labor? These volunteers are actually being paid through free golf. Shouldn't they be reporting the rounds of free golf on their taxes as income? They are working and being compensated for their work with free golf. How has the govt. missed another way for taxing someone on something?

[SecondandGoal]

18 minutes ago, lefthack said:

 

The issue is it's volunteer. You signed up for it, but you can walk away any time. The issue is they like the free golf, but now it's not enough. So leave. But when told they aren't needed when they liked the free golf, now they want to be paid.

 

It's no different than unpaid internship. You signed up, you can leave any time.

 

Correct. Nobody is forcing them to do this. They aren't under contract. Nobody conned them into it. They knew what they were getting: free golf in exchange for light work. It's just like anything else: if you don't like the compensation, walk away. In this case the compensation was free golf.

[J13]

21 minutes ago, lefthack said:

 

The issue is it's volunteer. You signed up for it, but you can walk away any time. The issue is they like the free golf, but now it's not enough. So leave. But when told they aren't needed when they liked the free golf, now they want to be paid.

 

It's no different than unpaid internship. You signed up, you can leave any time.

 

It's very different than an unpaid internship.  Volunteers working for free golf are getting something of direct monetary value. You can actually figure out what each volunteers makes based on rounds played.  The courses are paying $0 in taxes on that labor.

[J13]

3 minutes ago, SecondandGoal said:

 

Correct. Nobody is forcing them to do this. They aren't under contract. Nobody conned them into it. They knew what they were getting: free golf in exchange for light work. It's just like anything else: if you don't like the compensation, walk away. In this case the compensation was free golf.

 

You just described why labor laws were created.  It's not that cut and dry most of the time.  In this situation it's golf, but in most situations it's people having to take jobs while at the mercy of employers who have all the bargaining power.  Think about how insane it is that we need a federal law that lists a minimum wage.  It exists because history has shown us that people will pay as little as humanly possible in order to profit more.  

 

Anyway i'm done on the topic as time will tell how this shakes out but my guess is the course is going to face big problems, especially with tax evasion.

[rp4golf]

3 hours ago, J13 said:

Having over 600 volunteers is not a good sign, especially working regular work schedules.   My guess is they are in deep Sh$%.  Any judge, especially federal, will see through this scheme in about 2 minutes.

The number of volunteers is more than likely going to be irrelevant, as they're spread out over multiple facilities and positions that more than likely encompass minimal hours and minimal duties.
And any judge is still going to get back to the word "volunteer" - and in questioning any plaintiff is going to ask, "Do you understand the definition of the word volunteer, and did you apply to an advertisement asking for volunteers, or did you go into the job and application process expecting to be paid? And how long did you work said position without receiving a paycheck before you decided to inquire?"

"Uh, yeah your honor, I've been working there for years ... basically since I retired ... and when I was getting free golf it seemed like a good deal. Then they cut me back to 4 hours and one round a week, and, well, it pissed me off."

Edited June 6, 2021 by rp4golf

[tatertot]

31 minutes ago, J13 said:

 

It's very different than an unpaid internship.  Volunteers working for free golf are getting something of direct monetary value. You can actually figure out what each volunteers makes based on rounds played.  The courses are paying $0 in taxes on that labor.

It's the tax thing ... the county is "paying" volunteers, which means they ain't volunteers anymore. This is different than giving someone a $20 hat for working a weekend ... this is saying 4 hours of work = a round of golf. That's not volunteering, that's a barter system, which is just an alternative way of paying someone. Or, tax evasion.

[rp4golf]

31 minutes ago, J13 said:

 

It's very different than an unpaid internship.  Volunteers working for free golf are getting something of direct monetary value. You can actually figure out what each volunteers makes based on rounds played.  The courses are paying $0 in taxes on that labor.

Not really.
Unpaid interns perform duties and provide their services to a business or organization, even if you factor in the federal minimum, that otherwise said business or organization would be required to pay someone to do. You can actually figure out what each of them would make if they were paid positions.
It's like the recent elections, the candidates and the parties had hundreds of thousands of volunteers - that were paid $0 and in which the candidates and parties paid $0 on that labor.

[tatertot]

6 minutes ago, rp4golf said:

Not really.
Unpaid interns perform duties and provide their services to a business or organization, even if you factor in the federal minimum, that otherwise said business or organization would be required to pay someone to do. You can actually figure out what each of them would make if they were paid positions.
It's like the recent elections, the candidates and the parties had hundreds of thousands of volunteers - that were paid $0 and in which the candidates and parties paid $0 on that labor.

But they DIDN'T pay them anything. The golf courses DID pay their "volunteers" ... they just didn't pay taxes. Big difference.

[lefthack]

5 minutes ago, tatertot said:

But they DIDN'T pay them anything. The golf courses DID pay their "volunteers" ... they just didn't pay taxes. Big difference.

 

And the volunteers didn't pay taxes on the rounds the played. This isn't a for profit club.

[rwbloom93]

1 hour ago, J13 said:

 

You just described why labor laws were created.  It's not that cut and dry most of the time.  In this situation it's golf, but in most situations it's people having to take jobs while at the mercy of employers who have all the bargaining power.  Think about how insane it is that we need a federal law that lists a minimum wage.  It exists because history has shown us that people will pay as little as humanly possible in order to profit more.  

 

Anyway i'm done on the topic as time will tell how this shakes out but my guess is the course is going to face big problems, especially with tax evasion.

If labor laws apply to those who volunteer, our legal system is truly broken.

 

This lawsuit is dumb beyond belief...what a waste of time.

 

Regards

[Greenie]

Yep it is about the taxes..I think these people filing the suit won't win but the end result may be all of those that were happy getting free golf may lose out on anymore free golf. In the end everyone loses.

 

My friends husband volunteers at a golf course. He has to work 4 hrs. one weekend day and 8 hrs total during the week. Part of his job in hosing off carts and cleaning them but that is limited and most of the time he just rides around the golf course.  He says he usually play 5 rounds a week there for free. Just ball parking he is saving $200 on golf. That works out to around $16 an hr. 

[JayAreOhh924]

I'm curious of the semantics on a different scale after this is closed. I've volueteerred on the PGA and Symetra tour and both required payment FROM THE VOLUENTEER. They claim the cost is to cover food/uniforms etc. I've never complained about it since it's well worth the view for $25, but it makes me curious 1)why nobody has challenged it, and 2) what happens if this incident closes. Usually the course offers some sort of compensation of free/discounted golf if the voluenteer completes X amount of hours. 

[Greenie]

Years ago a friend of mine use to vounteer at a PGA tour event. Back then they gave him free clothes, a free round of golf at the course and he had a spot at a green where he held up the quiet sign. He said that was great.

 

As time went on they started charging him for his clothes. Somewhere close to $100. He said it was still a good deal because he got a free round of golf and it was still worth it. He was always at the same hole.

 

As time went on the free golf disapeared and he stopped doing it.

 

I was on the list to volunteer. It took many years before they contacted. When they did it was $95 for my clothes, It requried me to take off work for a week and when I asked what I would be doing I was told probably working in a food tent or picking up the trash cans on the course. The perk was a volunteer party at the end.  I simply didn't think it was worth it to me so they removed me from the list. I bought a ticket, took off work one day and I didn't have to work for being at the tournament and it was cheaper for me.

 

I find it kind of funny people pay to volunteer and work for free. 

[golfandfishing]

On 6/6/2021 at 12:35 PM, Greenie said:

Years ago a friend of mine use to vounteer at a PGA tour event. Back then they gave him free clothes, a free round of golf at the course and he had a spot at a green where he held up the quiet sign. He said that was great.

 

As time went on they started charging him for his clothes. Somewhere close to $100. He said it was still a good deal because he got a free round of golf and it was still worth it. He was always at the same hole.

 

As time went on the free golf disapeared and he stopped doing it.

 

I was on the list to volunteer. It took many years before they contacted. When they did it was $95 for my clothes, It requried me to take off work for a week and when I asked what I would be doing I was told probably working in a food tent or picking up the trash cans on the course. The perk was a volunteer party at the end.  I simply didn't think it was worth it to me so they removed me from the list. I bought a ticket, took off work one day and I didn't have to work for being at the tournament and it was cheaper for me.

 

I find it kind of funny people pay to volunteer and work for free. 

Not everyone views everything as a business transaction. I also wouldn’t pay to volunteer, but plenty gladly do for a variety of reasons. Some like to support the charitable organization that benefits from the tournament, some want the experience, some want to be able to assert some authority, or at least feel like they do. I understand why you don’t, and I know I wouldn’t either. But there is a laundry list of reasons why people do it, most are not self serving and come from a compassionate origin within a volunteer. 

[Greenie]

4 hours ago, golfandfishing said:

Not everyone views everything as a business transaction. I also wouldn’t pay to volunteer, but plenty gladly do for a variety of reasons. Some like to support the charitable organization that benefits from the tournament, some want the experience, some want to be able to assert some authority, or at least feel like they do. I understand why you don’t, and I know I wouldn’t either. But there is a laundry list of reasons why people do it, most are not self serving and come from a compassionate origin within a volunteer. 

 

I agree with you. I knew someone would probably respond this way to my post and you are right. 

 

I volunteer my time, transport dogs at a cost to me, and donate to an organization that helps rescue, save, and adopt dogs. I feel this is a worthy cause I am compassionate about. 

 

 

[miamistomp]

On 6/6/2021 at 12:13 PM, Greenie said:

I agree with this. ^^^^

 

I think there is a bigger issue here though. Is this a way to get around paying taxes on labor? These volunteers are actually being paid through free golf. Shouldn't they be reporting the rounds of free golf on their taxes as income? They are working and being compensated for their work with free golf. How has the govt. missed another way for taxing someone on something?

 Maybe right after some prominent politicians claim legit expenses and pay taxes..

[J13]

On 6/7/2021 at 4:20 PM, golfandfishing said:

Not everyone views everything as a business transaction. I also wouldn’t pay to volunteer, but plenty gladly do for a variety of reasons. Some like to support the charitable organization that benefits from the tournament, some want the experience, some want to be able to assert some authority, or at least feel like they do. I understand why you don’t, and I know I wouldn’t either. But there is a laundry list of reasons why people do it, most are not self serving and come from a compassionate origin within a volunteer. 

 

 

I agree but my club is working one of the holes at this years BMW Championship in the FedEx cup playoffs.  All the top guys from the world will be there so I am going to work the hole.  Cost is $150 which covers the Peter Millar gear like Shirt, jacket, hat, ect... Plus I get extra tickets for family members to go, and Im inside the ropes the whole week whether i'm working or not. Shifts are like 4hrs long for the days i'm there.  With most tourneys I wouldn't bother but this one will be worth it.  They are also pouring a ton of money into local programs here in my area like the First tee so i'm happy to help.

Edited June 9, 2021 by J13