Modern Driver Draw Issue

[Pepperturbo]

18 hours ago, ChipNRun said:

Back about 2009 (?), I was working with pro, looking at all aspects of the swing. He said I could hit the ball longer if I focused on straight ball, rather than a draw. I tried it for a season, but sprayed the long clubs all over. I saw an occasional video clip about going to "straight ball," but I can't identify anyone back then who was the SB guru.

 

 

Mantra for a long time has been go with fade or draw as stock shot "to take half the course away." Lately I have been seeing articles - largely undated online articles - about the benefits of playing for straight shots. One article Golfstead - Straight even has pointers on how to convert draw or fade primary into straight shots.

 

Then, there's the low-spin balls such as Bridgestone e6 and Callaway Warbird that are touted as going straight. Playing them supposedly helps.

To me, taking one side or the other out of play is little more than a knee-jerk reaction to the troubling two-way miss, and maybe provides some consistency.

 

My thought, being able to hit the ball straight is maybe the ultimate way to develop one's game.  Isn't the real premise of golfing one's ball is to be able to control/work the ball both directions from straight? 

 

The other day I hit the pur-dee-est drive using DASH over a ravine to a diagonal fairway.  Ball travelled straight from the tee till it covered the ravine then turned into a nice little fade, into the breeze, down the fairway.  It was the longest I'd hit on that hole.  On that hole, hitting it straight and long can be costly.  Gotta be creative about it, otherwise I end up like my buddy that day.  He bit off more than he could chew by not covering the hazard, then re-teed, too long, though the fairway, and lost.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Pepperturbo

[ChipNRun]

2 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

To me, taking one side or the other out of play is little more than a knee-jerk reaction to the troubling two-way miss, and maybe provides some consistency.

 

I must confess, I'm quite willing to break the stock shot rule for tee shots. On tee shots, I'm standing (generally) on level ground, the grass is closely mowed, and I get to set my ball on a wooden (nowadays plastic) peg at the height I want. Or, I can fluff the grass and set the ball atop the tuft. (Fluffed grass was my base for a hole-in-one 6i a couple of years back.)

 

This is ideal conditions for hitting the ball.

 

For approach shots, I mainly stick with the stock shot (now a fade). It's what I have time to practice. And you have a more positive attitude about golf than I do (as apparent in many of your posts.) I guess that allows you to pursue creativity over perceived reliability.

 

... (perceived: I still muff stock shots sometimes)

[myspinonit]

On 6/30/2021 at 8:56 AM, ChipNRun said:

 

I must confess, I'm quite willing to break the stock shot rule for tee shots. On tee shots, I'm standing (generally) on level ground, the grass is closely mowed, and I get to set my ball on a wooden (nowadays plastic) peg at the height I want. Or, I can fluff the grass and set the ball atop the tuft. (Fluffed grass was my base for a hole-in-one 6i a couple of years back.)

 

This is ideal conditions for hitting the ball.

 

For approach shots, I mainly stick with the stock shot (now a fade). It's what I have time to practice. And you have a more positive attitude about golf than I do (as apparent in many of your posts.) I guess that allows you to pursue creativity over perceived reliability.

 

... (perceived: I still muff stock shots sometimes)

I dunno. From your many posts over the years your replies always seem thoughtful, helpful, and looking at sides of issues.  Sounds pretty freakin' creative to me (and reliable). 😄 

Have always enjoyed reading yours too, PT, though your game is certainly on a different plane (no pun intended) than mine.

[Pomps]

On 6/29/2021 at 12:58 PM, nova6868 said:

 

I think you nailed it here. Everyone now tries to get positive angle of attack with driver when they're neutral or negative with all their other clubs. The driver setup/swing has become it's own thing. And it just doesn't favor hitting a draw since the club is already moving left by the time you hit the ball.

 

 

I definitely think path is a huge factor. My AOA with a driver is typically 5* up which has been very good for high launch low spin, but also gets the path going left which does not allow for a draw.  The problem I have is I hit draw with a left miss with every other club (and with driver until a few years ago), so I mentally struggle with aiming down the left side of the fairway and hitting a cut. The other issue is my home course has ob or woods left on every par 4/5 on the front and 5 of the 7 par 4/5s on the back. Most of them, the trouble is only 10 yards or less left of the fairway. On all of those holes, you just have another hole on the right that you can play from. To to aim left down the ob line especially with a history of having a left miss like I do, makes it challenging to be confident in playing a fade.

 

I guess with a left path, if you can rotate the face hard enough, you can still get a ball that flies left (and maybe if you aim right) it may mistakenly appear to be a draw, but with the modern CG points made earlier, that is much harder to do.

 

I guess if one really wants to hit a draw with a driver, they really need to either not hit as up on it so the path is not as left or if they want to hit up on it still for better launch/spin dynamics, that player then needs to really get the path moving significantly in to out.  

[phizzy30]

11 hours ago, Pomps said:

 

I definitely think path is a huge factor. My AOA with a driver is typically 5* up which has been very good for high launch low spin, but also gets the path going left which does not allow for a draw.  The problem I have is I hit draw with a left miss with every other club (and with driver until a few years ago), so I mentally struggle with aiming down the left side of the fairway and hitting a cut. The other issue is my home course has ob or woods left on every par 4/5 on the front and 5 of the 7 par 4/5s on the back. Most of them, the trouble is only 10 yards or less left of the fairway. On all of those holes, you just have another hole on the right that you can play from. To to aim left down the ob line especially with a history of having a left miss like I do, makes it challenging to be confident in playing a fade.

 

I guess with a left path, if you can rotate the face hard enough, you can still get a ball that flies left (and maybe if you aim right) it may mistakenly appear to be a draw, but with the modern CG points made earlier, that is much harder to do.

 

I guess if one really wants to hit a draw with a driver, they really need to either not hit as up on it so the path is not as left or if they want to hit up on it still for better launch/spin dynamics, that player then needs to really get the path moving significantly in to out.  

I hit up on it but it's 2-3* and still find it easy to draw it as that's my normal in to out swing.  I get that the modern driver head is designed to be low spinning and harder to turn over, but I don't just don't see it translating out on the course.  For me, the shaft has more influence on how much curve I get.  Ironically, the most fade biased driver I've ever had was the FT-9 TA and it was tour only back in the day. 

[Billfitz]

12 hours ago, Pomps said:

I guess if one really wants to hit a draw with a driver, they really need to either not hit as up on it so the path is not as left or if they want to hit up on it still for better launch/spin dynamics, that player then needs to really get the path moving significantly in to out.  

That's not my experience. First off, if I'm not consciously swinging inside out, with a good amount of hip rotation, I end up unconsciously swinging outside in, and I get a slice. Part two of my setup is the ball placement, which is usually just ahead of my left heel. This gives a slight fade, my preferred driver shape, because every driving hole on my home course but one plays to a fade. When I want to hit a draw I move the ball up in my stance by two to three inches. This gives the club face more time to turn over before making contact, promoting the draw. One might think that turning the face over would also give a lot lower flight, but it doesn't. That same extra length that the head travels to promote the draw also allows the attack angle to go higher, so the two cancel each other out as far as the launch angle is concerned. To make this work I also start with the club head in the same spot with respect to my body. This puts it maybe an inch in back of the ball in fade position, three inches or so in back of the ball in draw position.

[mgoblue83]

16 hours ago, Pomps said:

 

I definitely think path is a huge factor. My AOA with a driver is typically 5* up which has been very good for high launch low spin, but also gets the path going left which does not allow for a draw.  The problem I have is I hit draw with a left miss with every other club (and with driver until a few years ago), so I mentally struggle with aiming down the left side of the fairway and hitting a cut. The other issue is my home course has ob or woods left on every par 4/5 on the front and 5 of the 7 par 4/5s on the back. Most of them, the trouble is only 10 yards or less left of the fairway. On all of those holes, you just have another hole on the right that you can play from. To to aim left down the ob line especially with a history of having a left miss like I do, makes it challenging to be confident in playing a fade.

 

I guess with a left path, if you can rotate the face hard enough, you can still get a ball that flies left (and maybe if you aim right) it may mistakenly appear to be a draw, but with the modern CG points made earlier, that is much harder to do.

 

I guess if one really wants to hit a draw with a driver, they really need to either not hit as up on it so the path is not as left or if they want to hit up on it still for better launch/spin dynamics, that player then needs to really get the path moving significantly in to out.  

 

This is actually false.

 

Generally the path shifts right as your AoA increases and the best faders of the ball have a more neutral AoA. This is why Rory was hitting those huge high draws in years past and Koepka hits that flat fade. Rory was closer to +5 on AoA AND path with Koepka much more neutral.  

 

It's not surprising that you are having a hard time trusting a fade while swinging 5 up as your path is most likely to the right as well. I had the same issue and needed to really reduce my AoA to start hitting fades and I'm glad I did. Much more consistent!

Edited October 11, 2021 by mgoblue83

[petep5280]

I don't have the flexibility and athleticism to swing driver like my other clubs due to the head size and club length.