Garmin Approach R10 Portable Golf Launch Monitor

[North Butte]

12 hours ago, Sandhurst241069 said:

I get the mental sticking point .. but +/- 2 degrees is +/- 2 degrees no matter where your swing path falls .. quantifiably speaking .. remember too that this is just spin axis being impacted .. not ball direction which is a measured metric. 

Do we know for sure that ball direction is being measured by the R10's radar? Not computed and not being derived from a cell-phone camera (a la Rapsodo)?

 

If so, that would seem to be the main hardware innovation in the R10.  None of the other sub-$2K radar units have hardware that can measure lateral ball movement. Which isn't to say it's not doable, just that nobody to date has done it. 

[prusd]

Shouldn't the earliest adopters be receiving their r10's in about 7-9 days?  Didn't they say end of July would be the earliest the units would be arriving.  I am intrigued to see what others here have to report once they arrive.  Hopefully sooner rather than later.

[Carolina Golfer 2]

2 minutes ago, prusd said:

Shouldn't the earliest adopters be receiving their r10's in about 7-9 days?  Didn't they say end of July would be the earliest the units would be arriving.  I am intrigued to see what others here have to report once they arrive.  Hopefully sooner rather than later.

My email from PlayBetter said they would have the initial supply in late July and ship to the very first orders kn early August.  Then a larger order later in August that most current orders should be filled from. 

[mmcelroy]

On the garmin support page it says "The Approach R10 uses a three receiver radar to analyze several metrics like your club path, launch angle, ball speed, and estimated distances and direction. The accuracy for the radar metrics are outlined below."

 

So the direction is estimated, at least that's how I understand it.

 

That said, do we know if the Rapsodo or other $500 launch monitors have 3 receivers?  Did a bit of a search but couldnt figure it out definitively.  Looks like the swing caddy is only a single 24ghz sensor.  Just wondering if that would mean this might have more capabilities or performance.

 

 

[4 and a Quarter]

On 7/7/2021 at 10:03 PM, jimmies78 said:

I too think this is alittle strange...especially as the only YT'er has such a small following....would have thought that some of the 'big boys' would have had it especially as it is potentially such a well priced product 

 

I got my pre-order in with american Golf ( UK ) about 30 min before they threw up the sold out stock notice....i've also ordered one with snainton golf just in case I've paid AG but it isn't actually within their stock allocation

 

looking forward to this as I was about to pull the trigger on a mevo+ today then I saw this thread on golfwrx !

Good call. You think Rick Shiels would be top of their list. Perhaps a conflict with his association to Foresight?

[Stevie989]

1 hour ago, 4 and a Quarter said:

Good call. You think Rick Shiels would be top of their list. Perhaps a conflict with his association to Foresight?

He’s got it - currently testing. I can only assume there is some sort of embargo. 

[Sandhurst241069]

6 hours ago, mmcelroy said:

On the garmin support page it says "The Approach R10 uses a three receiver radar to analyze several metrics like your club path, launch angle, ball speed, and estimated distances and direction. The accuracy for the radar metrics are outlined below."

 

So the direction is estimated, at least that's how I understand it.

 

That said, do we know if the Rapsodo or other $500 launch monitors have 3 receivers?  Did a bit of a search but couldnt figure it out definitively.  Looks like the swing caddy is only a single 24ghz sensor.  Just wondering if that would mean this might have more capabilities or performance.

 

 

I’m thinking that the “estimated direction” in that case refers to the full projected journey of the ball net of curve.. the link below (supplied with the details of measured / calculated metrics earlier in this thread) is worth a deep dive. Unless it is flat out deceptive the club path and the ball’s starting direction are measured by the radar with face angle / spin / spin axis being calculated. It makes sense .. technically two of club path, ball starting direction and spin axis must be measured to calculate the other..  https://www.playbetter.com/blogs/products/garmin-approach-r10-golf-launch-monitor-and-simulator-announcement-and-features-review?fbclid=IwAR2QKNRY_byWqdixDGdFEDGc1AywZKedL6-UL1Isy93mB-sdxNi7irm4Sxo

[Sandhurst241069]

14 minutes ago, Sandhurst241069 said:

I’m thinking that the “estimated direction” in that case refers to the full projected journey of the ball net of curve.. the link below (supplied with the details of measured / calculated metrics earlier in this thread) is worth a deep dive. Unless it is flat out deceptive the club path and the ball’s starting direction are measured by the radar with face angle / spin / spin axis being calculated. It makes sense .. technically two of club path, ball starting direction and spin axis must be measured to calculate the other..  https://www.playbetter.com/blogs/products/garmin-approach-r10-golf-launch-monitor-and-simulator-announcement-and-features-review?fbclid=IwAR2QKNRY_byWqdixDGdFEDGc1AywZKedL6-UL1Isy93mB-sdxNi7irm4Sxo

Also…

https://t.co/eVDjObHUXV

[Murdock]

5 hours ago, Sandhurst241069 said:

I’m thinking that the “estimated direction” in that case refers to the full projected journey of the ball net of curve.. the link below (supplied with the details of measured / calculated metrics earlier in this thread) is worth a deep dive. Unless it is flat out deceptive the club path and the ball’s starting direction are measured by the radar with face angle / spin / spin axis being calculated. It makes sense .. technically two of club path, ball starting direction and spin axis must be measured to calculate the other..  https://www.playbetter.com/blogs/products/garmin-approach-r10-golf-launch-monitor-and-simulator-announcement-and-features-review?fbclid=IwAR2QKNRY_byWqdixDGdFEDGc1AywZKedL6-UL1Isy93mB-sdxNi7irm4Sxo

 

Also, it could state that from a CYA standpoint.  Unfortunately the world we live in is so litigious, I wouldn't put it past someone to sue and say "your device said I hit my 9 iron 160, and in real life I'm always short 10 yards".  Similar argument for direction.  Any deviation with those 2 metrics can technically can be proven by a layman, if someone wanted to actually measure where there ball landed while using the device.  On the other hand, I doubt any regular Joe could verify path, launch angle or ball speed (without a radar gun for the last one)

 

In the end it's all guesses until we get a real review or one of us WRX'rs gets one to test

Edited July 24, 2021 by Murdock

[Fairways_and_Greens]

On 7/14/2021 at 3:47 PM, J13 said:

 

GC Quad is the most accurate device on the planet for club head data for sure.  Camera system will always be better than radar in this regard.

For for everything but swing path I’d think.

[Fairways_and_Greens]

On 7/20/2021 at 12:38 PM, North Butte said:

Just one quibble to point out...

 

R10 does not report spin at all. Possibly because Garmin believes what it says in that patent application that you really need a camera to do spin right. 

 

As I mentioned upthread, if they (Garmin) are really not getting a decent estimate of spin with the R10 they are going to need some majorly awesome algorithms to do all the ball flight stuff they're claiming and do it accurately without knowing spin.

I think it’s more likely that FlightScope and Trackman have patents covering spin measurement with Doppler.

 

The Garmin R10 seems to be running 24 GHz @ 20 dBm maximum. Trackman 4 has a 10GHz for ball flight and 24GHz for around impact.

 

@ThinkingPlus is probably the most knowledgeable on the board when it comes to the electromagnetic spectrum and might have some insight here. If I recall she had a career in the space. Maybe the hardware at 24 GHz limits spin measurement, but that seems opposite.

 

I don’t think any system measures everything. I think that’s why pros with the means use GC4 for club impact and a tracking radar for ball flight.

 

 

[ThinkingPlus]

7 minutes ago, Fairways_and_Greens said:

I think it’s more likely that FlightScope and Trackman have patents covering spin measurement with Doppler.

 

The Garmin R10 seems to be running 24 GHz @ 20 dBm maximum. Trackman 4 has a 10GHz for ball flight and 24GHz for around impact.

 

@ThinkingPlus is probably the most knowledgeable on the board when it comes to the electromagnetic spectrum and might have some insight here. If I recall she had a career in the space. Maybe the hardware at 24 GHz limits spin measurement, but that seems opposite.

 

I don’t think any system measures everything. I think that’s why pros with the means use GC4 for club impact and a tracking radar for ball flight.

 

 

Well my expertise was more in the optical wavelengths rather than the radio spectrum.  I don't truly know enough about radar to even be dangerous, but I can speculate.  I believe radars measure spin by getting range to each side of the ball as it flies off the clubhead.  As the ball spins, one side is moving toward the radar while the other side of the ball is moving away from the radar.  This causes, I believe, an oscillation in the range that the radar algorithm converts to spin.

 

Now the radar must update quick enough and resolve (whatever that means in the radar world) the range measurements down to sub golf ball levels.  Radar power (and maybe frequency spectrum?) and update rate drive cost.  The fancy, expensive units update quickly and have loads of power.  The cheaper units have to cut costs somewhere so spin measurements suffer or need aids like metallic dots.

 

Take everything here with a huge grain of salt.  As I mentioned above, radar is not my superpower.

[Fairways_and_Greens]

5 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Well my expertise was more in the optical wavelengths rather than the radio spectrum.  I don't truly know enough about radar to even be dangerous, but I can speculate.  I believe radars measure spin by getting range to each side of the ball as it flies off the clubhead.  As the ball spins, one side is moving toward the radar while the other side of the ball is moving away from the radar.  This causes, I believe, an oscillation in the range that the radar algorithm converts to spin.

 

Now the radar must update quick enough and resolve (whatever that means in the radar world) the range measurements down to sub golf ball levels.  Radar power (and maybe frequency spectrum?) and update rate drive cost.  The fancy, expensive units update quickly and have loads of power.  The cheaper units have to cut costs somewhere so spin measurements suffer or need aids like metallic dots.

 

Take everything here with a huge grain of salt.  As I mentioned above, radar is not my superpower.

So the unit tracks the ball and the top portion is blue shifted and the bottom is red shifted? Or you think it does something else?

[ThinkingPlus]

2 hours ago, Fairways_and_Greens said:

So the unit tracks the ball and the top portion is blue shifted and the bottom is red shifted? Or you think it does something else?

Something like that, yes.  If true, you could see how update rate and being able to detect different parts of the ball would limit spin measurements.

[ob1soccer]

this is serious math and science stuff going on here. How much does this thing cost?

[theboypinoy]

4 hours ago, ob1soccer said:

this is serious math and science stuff going on here. How much does this thing cost?

 

$600 (USD)

[Stuart_G]

On 7/24/2021 at 10:29 AM, ThinkingPlus said:

 As the ball spins, one side is moving toward the radar while the other side of the ball is moving away from the radar.  This causes, I believe, an oscillation in the range that the radar algorithm converts to spin.

 

"Looking" at the top vs bottom of the ball would more likely (and more precisely) be done not with range but rather with a differential in the doppler shift - different velocities of the ball at the top and bottom. 

 

I think I read someplace that that method was researched for baseball tracking and that's what I thought was done for golfballs at one time as well.  But the radar cross section of the ball - especially at the edges is so small that I've since had my doubts that it's a reliable enough way to measure spin in a golf ball.   They'd need fairly precise and reliable way to determine at what "radius" does the detection threshold take place.   But that's more intuition than from any hard data.

 

Indoors with the metallic dots it would be much easier and more reliable to measure the periodicity of the signal spikes as the orientation of the dot changes.   And as I understand it, when the dot is at the far side off the ball, the ball itself acts as a lens of the radar signal to amplify and increase that return signal even more.  The seem of some balls can also act in a similar way to the metallic dot.

 

But one thing I do know, if the highest end units like flightscope and trackman need the dots when used indoors for limited flight, then it's unlikely they are relying on the type of measurement you describe - and it's even more unlikely that any other unit could reliably use it.   The power and resolution will always be better when the ball is closer so augmentations (like the use of the dot) wouldn't be needed indoors with that type of methodology.

 

Outdoors is a bit different since the ball flight can be used to refine the spin and spin axis.

 

FYI the sampling rate (or in radar terms, the pulse repetition frequency) is typically in the kilohertz range.  At least that's what I found was the case for Trackman but it's reasonable to assume similar rates for similar units.  Units not designed to track full flight could potentially go to higher rates but not sure there would be much benefit.

 

 

Edited July 26, 2021 by Stuart_G

[bigmarango]

I have one of these in order and would like to begin setting up a compatible launch pad in my basement.  I have enough room, a net and mat.  I will probably upgrade the mat. 
my question is more about what other things in the room will allow it to be most accurate/reliable. Should I have soft surfaces down range instead of a cement wall behind the net?   Incandescent lighting instead of fluorescent or led for electrical noise? Anything I am not thinking about yet?  I assume these conditions would be similar for the mevo+ and other radar based systems 

thanks for any ideas!

[gsxrdn]

Anyone here recieved their unit yet?

[MinciHH]

Hmmm, until this morning, it was stated on the Garmin homepage that the product will be available within 4 - 7 days. It just switched to 2 - 3 weeks. 🤨

[ianmckenna37]

just orderded mine from halpenney golf in ireland ..615 euros delivered

cant wait to try it out

[North Butte]

Surely everyone knows that announcements of products like this always have unrealistic availability dates that are never actually delivered on. 

 

[toddmanley]

17 hours ago, bigmarango said:

Anything I am not thinking about yet?  

Just need some candles that smell like fresh cut grass.  🤣

[Re*Ax]

Ok, so I ordered a unit a few weeks ago, originally it was going to be end July delivery and now it’s early August….which is fine.(UK)

 

I ordered early on the premise that if reviews were not good, I’d cancel, and if they were good I didn’t have to worry about stocks running out. 

I’m nervous is those of us that have ordered are days away from receiving the units and (that one guy excluded) no one has given us a hands on review.

 

It feels, to me, like when a movie doesn’t get shown to critics before hitting the Box Office; it’s always a flop.

 

I hope I’m wrong, as I’m otherwise excited to replace my Mevo which I use all the time at the range trying to increase my ballspeed and carry distances. I was attracted by the possibility of also tracking any improvement from delivering way too far inside and no where near enough down (last I checked on TM I had a +1 AoA with a 7 iron!?!)

[tezzlacoil]

1 hour ago, Re*Ax said:

Ok, so I ordered a unit a few weeks ago, originally it was going to be end July delivery and now it’s early August….which is fine.(UK)

 

I ordered early on the premise that if reviews were not good, I’d cancel, and if they were good I didn’t have to worry about stocks running out. 

I’m nervous is those of us that have ordered are days away from receiving the units and (that one guy excluded) no one has given us a hands on review.

 

It feels, to me, like when a movie doesn’t get shown to critics before hitting the Box Office; it’s always a flop.

 

I hope I’m wrong, as I’m otherwise excited to replace my Mevo which I use all the time at the range trying to increase my ballspeed and carry distances. I was attracted by the possibility of also tracking any improvement from delivering way too far inside and no where near enough down (last I checked on TM I had a +1 AoA with a 7 iron!?!)

This is why I didn't pre-order. Might be totally fine but feels off that there are zero reviews before release.

 

Hopefully it's only because they are tweaking the calcs/software etc to get it right, and they don't want to have critics totally pan it before they've had a chance to get it in decent shape via a patch. 

 

Heh i guess only the folks at garmin know what's really going on 🤣

[Topper133]

1 hour ago, Re*Ax said:

I’m nervous is those of us that have ordered are days away from receiving the units and (that one guy excluded) no one has given us a hands on review.

 

It feels, to me, like when a movie doesn’t get shown to critics before hitting the Box Office; it’s always a flop.

 

 I've done exactly the same, just spoke to American Golf, the units hit their Warehouse 9th August and will be shipped immediately so I'm expecting it on or around 11th aug. 

 

I am worried there are no reviews and even RS just keeps saying "coming soon".

[North Butte]

I'm not a big fan of the way these things are done nowadays but what's going on with the R10 is exactly the normal way of rolling out a new gadget of any kind, not just golf stuff. The company knows it's going to take a *long* time to actually get the thing working right, get a bunch of them churned out in Asia and then actually get them in hand in Europe and North America. So they start months in advance by seeding social media with hype like those YouTube "reviews" by Mr. Excitable, talking about how great it is.

 

The company knows all along when they have those "reviews" posted that they're months at best from delivering any product and probably a year or two from delivering products that work well and have most of the initial bugs ironed out. But once there's a certain level of discussion online it becomes self-perpetuating. At some point they let people pre-order the thing to keep them hooked and keep them talking about it while the wait continues. 

 

Most likely, you guys will eventually get an R10 and most likely by then they'll have it working more or less as advertised. But it won't be a fully mature Ready For Prime Time product until long after the initial hype and until a few thousand people have used it and the company finds the remaining bugs. And there is a finite chance that the thing will never work worth a darn. It's all part of the Early Adopter experience. 

[PostandGhost]

4 minutes ago, North Butte said:

I'm not a big fan of the way these things are done nowadays but what's going on with the R10 is exactly the normal way of rolling out a new gadget of any kind, not just golf stuff. The company knows it's going to take a *long* time to actually get the thing working right, get a bunch of them churned out in Asia and then actually get them in hand in Europe and North America. So they start months in advance by seeding social media with hype like those YouTube "reviews" by Mr. Excitable, talking about how great it is.

 

The company knows all along when they have those "reviews" posted that they're months at best from delivering any product and probably a year or two from delivering products that work well and have most of the initial bugs ironed out. But once there's a certain level of discussion online it becomes self-perpetuating. At some point they let people pre-order the thing to keep them hooked and keep them talking about it while the wait continues. 

 

Most likely, you guys will eventually get an R10 and most likely by then they'll have it working more or less as advertised. But it won't be a fully mature Ready For Prime Time product until long after the initial hype and until a few thousand people have used it and the company finds the remaining bugs. And there is a finite chance that the thing will never work worth a darn. It's all part of the Early Adopter experience. 

You're absolutely right about all of this.  Do you think it's this way because the people at the companies want it to be this way or do you think it's because they can't do it like the old days when the supply chain was local, social media and forums leaks didn't exist, and they didn't have a ton of pressure from investors for ROI on sunk costs as soon as possible?

[North Butte]

Just now, From_Parts_Unknown said:

You're absolutely right about all of this.  Do you think it's this way because the people at the companies want it to be this way or do you think it's because they can't do it like the old days when the supply chain was local, social media and forums leaks didn't exist, and they didn't have a ton of pressure from investors for ROI on sunk costs as soon as possible?

They do it because it works. Simple as that. 

 

Kind of like when they asked a guy why he'd spent his entire life robbing banks and it said it's because that's where they keep the money. 

 

It's effective at generating and sustaining interest and the cost of all that hype to the company is near zero.  A few press releases and sending freebie pre-release examples to a few hand-picked "reviewers" is all it takes. 

[Stuart_G]

2 hours ago, From_Parts_Unknown said:

Do you think it's this way because the people at the companies want it to be this way

 

It's because the bosses don't want to hear about the scheduling problems that might happen or will likely happen (no matter how much the underlings know it really will happen).   But they don't have any choice about dealing with the problems after they actually happen.