Modano's albatross (or was it a birdie?)

[TerpFangolfer]

Saw the replay on GC and thought "wow, nice shot"...turns out they cut the replay by 5 sec.

Pretty clear 10.2b(4) violation. Wonder if the Celebrity tournaments play are normally lax with rules? Have no idea...wonder who administers the rules for the comp? Do they have an actual rules official? 

 

https://twitter.com/sullivangolf/status/1413712534604034049?s=19

 

[Sawgrass]

13 minutes ago, TerpFangolfer said:

Saw the replay on GC and thought "wow, nice shot"...turns out they cut the replay by 5 sec.

Pretty clear 10.2b(4) violation. Wonder if the Celebrity tournaments play are normally lax with rules? Have no idea...wonder who administers the rules for the comp? Do they have an actual rules official? 

 

https://twitter.com/sullivangolf/status/1413712534604034049?s=19

 

I agree that the video looks like a violation (unless the caddie was absentmindedly doing something else while standing there with whatever that was in her hands).

 

Have you read the extensive Clarification (which essentially re-writes rather than clarifies the rule)?  https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rulesarticles/clarifications-of-the-2019-rules-of-golf.html#rule10
 

Perhaps  no ref was watching and no one on site reported it.

[Mr. Bean]

Just to open the Pandora's box...

 

From the Clarification:

 

Examples of when a caddie’s action is not considered to be deliberate include when:

- The caddie is engaged in a task (such as obtaining a yardage) and is unaware that the player has begun to take the stance.

But, in the examples given above, when the caddie becomes aware that the player has already begun to take a stance for the stroke to be played and he or she is standing on or close to an extension of the line of play behind the ball, the caddie needs to make every effort to move out of the way.

 

Is the caddie looking at the yardage book or watching the player taking his stance? 

 

And does the player have to re-take his stance in a situation described in that Clarification? If not, there will be long thread...

 

EDIT: What is the caddie doing there in the first place? Looks like a rookie level blunder.

 

Edited July 10, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[James the Hogan Fan]

27 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

Just to open the Pandora's box...

 

From the Clarification:

 

Examples of when a caddie’s action is not considered to be deliberate include when:

- The caddie is engaged in a task (such as obtaining a yardage) and is unaware that the player has begun to take the stance.

But, in the examples given above, when the caddie becomes aware that the player has already begun to take a stance for the stroke to be played and he or she is standing on or close to an extension of the line of play behind the ball, the caddie needs to make every effort to move out of the way.

 

Is the caddie looking at the yardage book or watching the player taking his stance? 

 

And does the player have to re-take his stance in a situation described in that Clarification? If not, there will be long thread...

 

EDIT: What is the caddie doing there in the first place? Looks like a rookie level blunder.

 

 

The caddie is the player's wife I believe, and therefore probably not a caddie by profession. Probably invited to walk along, have fun and wear a silly bib. 

 

My least favorite rule. If for no other reason than the caddie cannot stand in the most logical place to watch the ball after it is hit.

 

 

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

2 minutes ago, James the Hogan Fan said:

 

The caddie is the player's wife I believe, and therefore probably not a caddie by profession. Probably invited to walk along, have fun and wear a silly bib. 

 

My least favorite rule. If for no other reason than the caddie cannot stand in the most logical place to watch the ball after it is hit.

 

Standing one meter aside makes no difference in watching where the ball flies...

[James the Hogan Fan]

Seems like 1 meter would be "close to the player's line of play" since you could probably reliably line someone up from that position.

 

If they wanted to make a rule requiring the player to align himself, why couldn't they just say "from the time the player begins taking his stance, the player's caddie shall not provide advice or direction with regard to the player's alignment."

[Mr. Bean]

29 minutes ago, James the Hogan Fan said:

Seems like 1 meter would be "close to the player's line of play" since you could probably reliably line someone up from that position.

 

 

It is not in my books but let us say 2 meters then, makes absolutely no difference, you can easily follow the flight of a ball from there as well, that is what we do every day on the teeing grounds.

[Mr. Bean]

45 minutes ago, James the Hogan Fan said:

If they wanted to make a rule requiring the player to align himself, why couldn't they just say "from the time the player begins taking his stance, the player's caddie shall not provide advice or direction with regard to the player's alignment."

 

Isn't that what they say? In fact, they have gone a bit farther than that by specifically instruction what is allowed and what is not. Very black & white IMO.

[jobin]

Somewhat pertinent but is the WGC (eg Dell World Match play) using the USGA rules on this standing caddy question?  Because i watch that video and see, numerous times, the caddy behind the player as player takes stance. Caddy moves away, player does not move but hits ball. This action on the fairway and green.

 

I suppose a bigger question is how much adjustment to Rules can various Tours, private ventures (Masters) make to the Rule book?

[dvq9654]

3 hours ago, James the Hogan Fan said:

 

The caddie is the player's wife I believe, and therefore probably not a caddie by profession. Probably invited to walk along, have fun and wear a silly bib. 

 

My least favorite rule. If for no other reason than the caddie cannot stand in the most logical place to watch the ball after it is hit.

 

 

 

 

 

I looked up his wife for fun. She was previously a "professional golfer" according to Google. Not saying this makes her aware of what is a new rule, but makes me think she may be more keen than most. 

 

That said, isn't this a tournament meant for celebrities to have fun while raising money for charity? Don't think this is an event where the rules matter nearly as much as they do to the members of this forum, so I'm inclined to let it slide either way (as I'm sure any "rules official" at the event would be too, as well). 

[Mr. Bean]

38 minutes ago, jobin said:

I suppose a bigger question is how much adjustment to Rules can various Tours, private ventures (Masters) make to the Rule book?

 

They cannot overrule any Rule of Golf except by using published Model Local Rules.

[TerpFangolfer]

19 minutes ago, dvq9654 said:

 

I looked up his wife for fun. She was previously a "professional golfer" according to Google. Not saying this makes her aware of what is a new rule, but makes me think she may be more keen than most. 

 

That said, isn't this a tournament meant for celebrities to have fun while raising money for charity? Don't think this is an event where the rules matter nearly as much as they do to the members of this forum, so I'm inclined to let it slide either way (as I'm sure any "rules official" at the event would be too, as well). 

Yes, a "fun" tournament with a $600,000 purse ($125k to the winner)

[NJBigFish22]

I think they follow the rules in this, but I don’t think they are overly excited to enforce all of them, case in point.  

[rogolf]

50 minutes ago, jobin said:

Somewhat pertinent but is the WGC (eg Dell World Match play) using the USGA rules on this standing caddy question?  Because i watch that video and see, numerous times, the caddy behind the player as player takes stance. Caddy moves away, player does not move but hits ball. This action on the fairway and green.

 

I suppose a bigger question is how much adjustment to Rules can various Tours, private ventures (Masters) make to the Rule book?

Let's clarify this - the PGA Tour, all of the majors (Masters, The Open Championship, PGA Championship, US Open) and probably every other tour in the world are committed to following the Rules as published by the USGA and R&A (the Rules are identical).

Please vanquish the thought that there are differences, other than approved Model Local Rules, in effect at each event.

[cgasucks]

Wow.  Modano looks pretty good for his age.  I thought it was some NHL player in his 30s.

[antip]

It is not at all unusual in some charity and celebrity events to have the likes of a Tiger Woods offering swing guidance and other rules-illegitimate assistance to the non-pros. In some I've seen it played up for the camera also, discussing the shot intent, checking the line up etc. I don't know where this tournament fits in that range but normal processes do get suspended at times.

[MountainKing]

Somebody does something cool in a celebrity event that helps charity, and we want to take that away?  No wonder golf gets a bad rap. 

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, MountainKing said:

Somebody does something cool in a celebrity event that helps charity, and we want to take that away?  No wonder golf gets a bad rap. 

 

This is a Rules forum, not a charity forum. Besides, nobody is trying to take anything away from anybody, we are simply discussing how that would/should be ruled should it happen in a 'proper' competition.

 

Lighten up. Seems to me you are one of those promoting that bad rap, not us on this forum.

 

Edited July 12, 2021 by Mr. Bean
typo

[jimbo123]

2 hours ago, MountainKing said:

Somebody does something cool in a celebrity event that helps charity, and we want to take that away?  No wonder golf gets a bad rap. 

Blatantly cheating is not cool!!!
 

Jokes.  I wouldn’t have seen this awesome shot if not for the rules forum!

[antip]

On 7/11/2021 at 6:16 AM, James the Hogan Fan said:

Seems like 1 meter would be "close to the player's line of play" since you could probably reliably line someone up from that position.

 

If they wanted to make a rule requiring the player to align himself, why couldn't they just say "from the time the player begins taking his stance, the player's caddie shall not provide advice or direction with regard to the player's alignment."

I'm very much hoping that the 2023 version will simplify this space. I like your words but also suggest pictures and interpretations would be needed to elaborate/provide examples.

 

Personally, I think knocking off the appalling habits the pros had gotten into in this space was one of the best 2019 changes (among many excellent changes). Writing regulation to change entrenched behaviours is a fraught task, sometimes requiring an iterative process in a progressive transition to a better world. 

[puttnforthe8]

On 7/10/2021 at 4:44 PM, TerpFangolfer said:

Yes, a "fun" tournament with a $600,000 purse ($125k to the winner)

And where every player playing has that $125k in their golf bag!!  The $ means absolutely zero to them!

[Mr. Bean]

On 7/10/2021 at 11:16 PM, James the Hogan Fan said:

Seems like 1 meter would be "close to the player's line of play" since you could probably reliably line someone up from that position.

 

If they wanted to make a rule requiring the player to align himself, why couldn't they just say "from the time the player begins taking his stance, the player's caddie shall not provide advice or direction with regard to the player's alignment."

 

9 hours ago, antip said:

I'm very much hoping that the 2023 version will simplify this space. I like your words but also suggest pictures and interpretations would be needed to elaborate/provide examples.

 

 

Prohibiting a caddie from giving advice would be a slippery slope, IMO. I like this current idea better as it is specific to aligning the player from behind the ball. After all, a caddie may give lots of kinds of advices from other locations in relation to the player than just behind the ball.

[antip]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

 

Prohibiting a caddie from giving advice would be a slippery slope, IMO. I like this current idea better as it is specific to aligning the player from behind the ball. After all, a caddie may give lots of kinds of advices from other locations in relation to the player than just behind the ball.

I read James' comment as only relating to advice about alignment, not advice more generally.

[Mr. Bean]

18 minutes ago, antip said:

I read James' comment as only relating to advice about alignment, not advice more generally.

Me too, but how would you categorize advices between alignment and posture of the player? Is 'move your right foot one inch forward' an advice about alignment when stated from 5 meters in front of the player?

 

I just feel that James' words as such would easily complicate things.

[Mr. Bean]

Maybe the easiest way would be forbidding any advice from a caddie. The task of a caddie would be delivering information and carrying player's equipment and that's it. After all, this current change in the Rules was justified by saying that a player should be able to align himself without any help so why not extend this principle wider?

[denkea]

21 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

Maybe the easiest way would be forbidding any advice from a caddie. The task of a caddie would be delivering information and carrying player's equipment and that's it. After all, this current change in the Rules was justified by saying that a player should be able to align himself without any help so why not extend this principle wider?

Like having to read greens without the aid of a green reading book? 😉

[antip]

34 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

Maybe the easiest way would be forbidding any advice from a caddie. The task of a caddie would be delivering information and carrying player's equipment and that's it. After all, this current change in the Rules was justified by saying that a player should be able to align himself without any help so why not extend this principle wider?

I've been pushing this barrow for ever.

[Mr. Bean]

22 minutes ago, denkea said:

Like having to read greens without the aid of a green reading book? 😉

Exactly.