Early extension, can’t stop, how to just “play it”?

[Augster]

Hello,

 

I’ve been an early extender/humper for all my days. I’ve tried nearly everything to get rid of it and it’s just not going to happen due to my physical makeup and hip pain. 
 

So, with early extension and a well timed flip as a given, what should my setup/swing look like to give me the best chance at playing a real shot. 
 

Ball back in my stance, swing in to out or out to in, stand much further away, stand closer, etc. etc. What should I try to give myself the best chance at solid contact. I’ve tried a lot and haven’t come up with the solution yet. 
 

Thanks for any/all suggestions. 

[N0rs3man]

First I would take ur driver, tee up a ball a decent amount.

 

Then setup, but not like you normally do. Scoot back a few inches, your left arm is straight, you have to reach maybe just a touch to get the club behind the ball.

 

On your backswing, point your left shoulder behind the ball, once it's pointing behind the ball, start ur downswing. Make sure you feel as if your chest goes over your right foot, or you will probably reverse pivot.

[Augster]

Thanks! 
 

How about irons? I’m mostly worried about that as you’re supposed to hit down, take a divot etc. and it’s really hard to do with the humping. 
 

I hope to get some video up. 

[BrianMcG]

You need to know what the cause of your early extension is.  EE is a symptom of something that happened earlier in the swing. 

 

For example: Usually its caused by the shaft being too steep in the downswing, because it was too shallow in the backswing. No amount of sitting on a chair or against a wall will fix it because you aren't dealing with the main issue which was in the backswing. 

[CasualLie]

Focus all your practice on chipping / putting, you are going to need it. 😉

 

Don't blame the OP a bit, trying to hit certain positions in a golf swing and getting rid of the goat move can get old, takes the fun right out of it.  Getting up and down from a dead position once or twice a round... Now that's fun!

[Augster]

5 minutes ago, BrianMcG said:

You need to know what the cause of your early extension is.  EE is a symptom of something that happened earlier in the swing. 

 

For example: Usually its caused by the shaft being too steep in the downswing, because it was too shallow in the backswing. No amount of sitting on a chair or against a wall will fix it because you aren't dealing with the main issue which was in the backswing. 

My main issue is hip pain in my left hip. I can’t really get into it anymore and any “keeping my butt back against the tush line” results in immediate pain and a terrible shot. 
 

I’m done trying to “fix” the early extension. Too much pain, not gonna work. 
 

So, what would a competent swing look like with early extension and precision striking? 
 

I can play a little bit. I was a 2.5 last year before the pain started. I tried to get more rotary this year, no humping etc., but the rotation blew out my right knee. Avoiding pain in my left hip transferred the pain to my right knee. I’ll have to have that looked at after the season. I have blown up to a 6.8 and am only there due to the soft cap in the WHS. I’d be a 9 more likely. 
 

I can swing my arms with little rotation with no pain. But I 100% early extend. I can still play, I can still strike it every so often. It’s just timing the flip. Once that left hip slows to a stop, (if it rotates out of the way there’s too much pain) the arms slow and the hands flip. 
 

So I just want to give myself the best chance of actually catching the ball crisply and know where it’s going. Because of the hump, “conventional” golf setup/swing hasn’t produced results. 
 

I’m asking the swing brain trust here at WRX to help me develop a non-conventional swing (think SnT, A-swing, or JuJu) that doesn’t hurt my hip (or knee) that allows me to actually strike the ball. What would that swing look like and how would it be employed?

 

THANKS!

[CasualLie]

No expert, but I'm thinking a weaker grip will help counteract the flip.  You will hit either solid fades or your miss a weak right.  And you can play a short game from short right a lot more than long left.

[N0rs3man]

Moe norman said he doesn't use his lower body, he did, but it was passive. Passive lower body probably won't flare up your hip. Id try that style.

 

As for playing with ee and timing idk.. that is just grounds for trial and error, lots of grinding and seeing what works and what hurts.

 

Also open stance shifts hip rotation to right hip, if you find something that might work, maybe an open stance will put it over the edge 

Edited August 20, 2021 by N0rs3man

[Shanker84]

I don’t really EE and am a 15. We can gladly trade. I’ll take your goat humping 6.8 and you can take my fairly rotational 15. Deal? 

[Hilts1969]

6 hours ago, Augster said:

My main issue is hip pain in my left hip. I can’t really get into it anymore and any “keeping my butt back against the tush line” results in immediate pain and a terrible shot. 
 

I’m done trying to “fix” the early extension. Too much pain, not gonna work. 
 

So, what would a competent swing look like with early extension and precision striking? 
 

I can play a little bit. I was a 2.5 last year before the pain started. I tried to get more rotary this year, no humping etc., but the rotation blew out my right knee. Avoiding pain in my left hip transferred the pain to my right knee. I’ll have to have that looked at after the season. I have blown up to a 6.8 and am only there due to the soft cap in the WHS. I’d be a 9 more likely. 
 

I can swing my arms with little rotation with no pain. But I 100% early extend. I can still play, I can still strike it every so often. It’s just timing the flip. Once that left hip slows to a stop, (if it rotates out of the way there’s too much pain) the arms slow and the hands flip. 
 

So I just want to give myself the best chance of actually catching the ball crisply and know where it’s going. Because of the hump, “conventional” golf setup/swing hasn’t produced results. 
 

I’m asking the swing brain trust here at WRX to help me develop a non-conventional swing (think SnT, A-swing, or JuJu) that doesn’t hurt my hip (or knee) that allows me to actually strike the ball. What would that swing look like and how would it be employed?

 

THANKS!

 

How is your left hip if you set up with a very open stance but keep your shoulders more square.  Theoretically during/after striking the ball your torso and hips  would line up. 

 

In effect you are presenting the open left hip. So if it's the motion only that hurts that may work.

 

The other option would be to drop your right foot back and swing with the arms passing the body with a cut off follow through. It would be a draw pattern.

[Valtiel]

Pretty much all the better players that have/had a touch of hump in their swing or a manageable/predictable amount of hip depth loss have had steeper, higher handed backswings with the club very much kept in front of them. 



Tyrell Hatton here is a perfect example. His hands are basically right over the balls of his feet at the top. The more you can keep the club up and out in front of you, the clearer the "path" back down to impact is. This is why so many average Joes struggle, because they'll often pair this hip depth loss with a flat/inside backswing that gets them stuck with the main path to impact being blocked by hips coming towards the ball. If we replaced Tyrell's backswing with Matt Kuchar's we'd never see him on the weekend again. 

Edited August 20, 2021 by Valtiel

[Augster]

5 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Pretty much all the better players that have/had a touch of hump in their swing or a manageable/predictable amount of hip depth loss have had steeper, higher handed backswings with the club very much kept in front of them. 



Tyrell Hatton here is a perfect example. His hands are basically right over the balls of his feet at the top. The more you can keep the club up and out in front of you, the clearer the "path" back down to impact is. This is why so many average Joes struggle, because they'll often pair this hip depth loss with a flat/inside backswing that gets them stuck with the main path to impact being blocked by hips coming towards the ball. If we replaced Tyrell's backswing with Matt Kuchar's we'd never see him on the weekend again. 

I’d never seen this by Hatton. Thanks!

 

So, in your opinion, what exactly does he do to play such good golf with his tush coming off the wall?  High hands with a steeper plane. I can see that. 
 

From that camera angle, and it might just be that, it looks like on the way down his shaft is above his right forearm. Also, it looks like his left arm at the top is on a bit steeper angle than his shaft at address. 
 

Obviously, this can work as he’s a world class player. Does he really address it off the heel like the video looks or is that just what it looks like because they camera is inside the target line? If he does address it that way, is it so he subconsciously reminds himself to get steeper so he doesn’t catch the hosel? 
 

Interesting. 
 

Thanks for all the help so far all of you!

[glk]

Frankly you need to have your hip checked out - that sounds very bad.    Golf would be the last thing I would be worried about.

[DShepley]

Maybe try checking out the Wright Balance, (Larry Rinker), Upper Core swing.  Also....get that hip looked at!

 

 

[Nels55]

You could check out Payne Stewart or Jack Nicklaus' swing:

 

 

 

For the hip pain I would recommend seeing a muscle activation technique specialist.  I had chronic lead hip pain for many years, seeing your post today reminded me how much it hurt before I got it 'fixed'.  Good luck on your swing journey!

 

[Valtiel]

5 hours ago, Augster said:

I’d never seen this by Hatton. Thanks!

 

So, in your opinion, what exactly does he do to play such good golf with his tush coming off the wall?  High hands with a steeper plane. I can see that. 
 

From that camera angle, and it might just be that, it looks like on the way down his shaft is above his right forearm. Also, it looks like his left arm at the top is on a bit steeper angle than his shaft at address. 
 

Obviously, this can work as he’s a world class player. Does he really address it off the heel like the video looks or is that just what it looks like because they camera is inside the target line? If he does address it that way, is it so he subconsciously reminds himself to get steeper so he doesn’t catch the hosel? 
 

Interesting. 
 

Thanks for all the help so far all of you!

You're welcome! 

It's a great question honestly, because Tyrell gets a lot of flack for his swing as it looks cramped and humpy which to most of us looks amateurish, but you can't argue with the results. I've seen videos where he talks about working on his swing with his dad in a home video setup he has, so I don't believe he is unaware of the nature of his mechanics, which he obviously executes extremely consistently. Why he does what he does is hard to say for sure, it could be anything from a childhood injury that forces him to move a certain way or some other physical limitation (maybe that explains his anger? lol) to simply him being in touch with how his body wants to naturally move and what produces the best results for him. 

For most people, loss of hip depth and early extension are symptoms of prior foundational flaws in the swing (or physical limitations as has been discussed) and are employed as a compensation, but Tyrell doesn't have those flaws, plus it is not just his lower body that is coming towards the ball, its everything. To me that seems like a feel for him, especially with addressing the ball towards the heel like you pointed out, although I think it might be the opposite of what you theorized in that it could serve as a hard reminder to shallow in transition and get the hands more "in" to keep from hitting the heel. Think about the fact that most ams get stuck doing the opposite of what they should to solve a problem e.g. aiming further and further left to compensate for a slice (which just increases it) and vice versa for a draw. Many players that hump the ball struggle with impact moving towards the heel since everything wants to shift in that direction, so by addressing the ball out of the heel that could be forcing Tyrell to make the right moves with his hands and arms in transition. 

I also agree with @glk in that getting your hip looked at should be prioritized as well. 

Edited August 20, 2021 by Valtiel

[dvq9654]

I obviously have no clue what's wrong with your hip, but I would guess that EE would make your hip hurt more than less. It may be worth an online lesson with a reputable instructor to see if they can identify the EE culprit, which may quickly eliminate or at least limit your EE. I know a few simple points allowed me to effectively eliminate EE. Hopefully you can do the same and it'll provide some relief. 

[Augster]

12 hours ago, glk said:

Frankly you need to have your hip checked out - that sounds very bad.    Golf would be the last thing I would be worried about.

I did. I did the rehab all last winter and can walk just fine. Run. Jump. Racquetball. Tennis. Hockey. Basketball. The ONLY thing that brings me any pain is my horrible golf swing. 
 

I either have to get better with my limitations, or quit playing. And I’m not ready to give it up yet. I still break 80 most days playing with just my arms. And short game. No pain in the short game. 

[BigEx44]

I got rid of a lot of my EE problems by setting up in an "open stance".

Felt like it gave me more room to swing in to out.

May not be the solution for everyone - but it definitely worked for me.

orked for me.

[glk]

7 hours ago, Augster said:

I did. I did the rehab all last winter and can walk just fine. Run. Jump. Racquetball. Tennis. Hockey. Basketball. The ONLY thing that brings me any pain is my horrible golf swing. 
 

I either have to get better with my limitations, or quit playing. And I’m not ready to give it up yet. I still break 80 most days playing with just my arms. And short game. No pain in the short game. 

And yet you still experience pain when doing certain motion in you swing?    If you still have pain whenever you do a certain motion in your swing then I would say you haven't resolved your issue - both whatever and where ever the problem exists  and the swing.      

 

Tips here are not the answer.     So besides continuing to find out the source of the pain and resolving it, you really need to find a good teaching professional to improve your motion - it appears you may have already compensated your way into a right knee issue.    The brain will work to avoid pain but that doesn't mean what it does won't lead to further issues down the line just like your right knee.     And I have to believe you aren't "just using your arms" - impossible not to have the body involved and doing some level of rotation, flexion, extension, etc of the knees/hips,torso etc.

 

 

[Augster]

4 hours ago, glk said:

And yet you still experience pain when doing certain motion in you swing?    If you still have pain whenever you do a certain motion in your swing then I would say you haven't resolved your issue - both whatever and where ever the problem exists  and the swing.      

 

Tips here are not the answer.     So besides continuing to find out the source of the pain and resolving it, you really need to find a good teaching professional to improve your motion - it appears you may have already compensated your way into a right knee issue.    The brain will work to avoid pain but that doesn't mean what it does won't lead to further issues down the line just like your right knee.     And I have to believe you aren't "just using your arms" - impossible not to have the body involved and doing some level of rotation, flexion, extension, etc of the knees/hips,torso etc.

 

 

Right. It’s my current, horrible, way I want to swing the club that gives me any pain. I’m making changes to avoid that pain. 
 

In “real life”, and any other sporting activity, there is no need to ever stick my left hip WAY outside the hip joint and then turn hard into it. Golf is the only athletic movement that it, incorrectly, happens. I’m trying to fix that. 
 

I don’t get hip pain, I don’t slide into it and turn, when I minimize my hip movement and swing with “just my arms”. 
 

But I was hoping this post wouldn’t devolve into “fix your hip pain” advice and more about the swing. But here we are.
 

With any swing advice I get, I can try it out. If it hurts, it goes back to the bin. If it doesn’t, maybe it’s part of the solution. 
 

It’s very binary for me. It either hurts and I scrap it, or it doesn’t hurt and I can work and see results. 

 

Again, I’ll reiterate, the only time I have hip pain is with my old, lunging, sliding swing. I’m going away from that. 
 

This is my swing from 6/10/19 before any hip pain started. 
 

 

Years of that ended up giving me left hip pain. I’m going away from that. 

[2bGood]

Have you tried thinking of baseball or your grandma's birthday?

Edited August 23, 2021 by 2bGood

[Nels55]

4 hours ago, glk said:

And yet you still experience pain when doing certain motion in you swing?    If you still have pain whenever you do a certain motion in your swing then I would say you haven't resolved your issue - both whatever and where ever the problem exists  and the swing.      

 

Tips here are not the answer.     So besides continuing to find out the source of the pain and resolving it, you really need to find a good teaching professional to improve your motion - it appears you may have already compensated your way into a right knee issue.    The brain will work to avoid pain but that doesn't mean what it does won't lead to further issues down the line just like your right knee.     And I have to believe you aren't "just using your arms" - impossible not to have the body involved and doing some level of rotation, flexion, extension, etc of the knees/hips,torso etc.

 

 

Based on my experience with lessons I really doubt that there are many teaching professionals who could help to alleviate that hip pain in a manner any different from what he is already doing.  

[glk]

30 minutes ago, Augster said:

Right. It’s my current, horrible, way I want to swing the club that gives me any pain. I’m making changes to avoid that pain. 
 

In “real life”, and any other sporting activity, there is no need to ever stick my left hip WAY outside the hip joint and then turn hard into it. Golf is the only athletic movement that it, incorrectly, happens. I’m trying to fix that. 
 

I don’t get hip pain, I don’t slide into it and turn, when I minimize my hip movement and swing with “just my arms”. 
 

But I was hoping this post wouldn’t devolve into “fix your hip pain” advice and more about the swing. But here we are.
 

With any swing advice I get, I can try it out. If it hurts, it goes back to the bin. If it doesn’t, maybe it’s part of the solution. 
 

It’s very binary for me. It either hurts and I scrap it, or it doesn’t hurt and I can work and see results. 

 

Again, I’ll reiterate, the only time I have hip pain is with my old, lunging, sliding swing. I’m going away from that. 
 

This is my swing from 6/10/19 before any hip pain started. 
 

 

Years of that ended up giving me left hip pain. I’m going away from that. 

Yep that bump/slide will lead to hip pain - basically your ankle, knee, hip , and shoulder are not aligned - hip/knee get outside ankle and shoulder is behind them - makes it stressful to say the least when an attempt is made to rotate into the lead hip.

 

Don't quite follow reluctant to get some good instruction versus a random walk thru tips - but essentially you need to learn how to move in backswing and transition with your knees/hip - AMG is likely the best spot to look.

 

They weren't fixing a slide here but in the main lessons points are how to move the lower body (and upper) properly with drills and work on setup.     Call it a tip or whatever but this is along the lines that someone good would have you working thru.

 

Monte here via facetime etc can give you an almost live lesson where he can walk you thru and make sure you start to do the motion well.    

 

 

Edited August 21, 2021 by glk

[Precis1on]

Would recommend a video lesson with a reputable instructor over random tips (Monte comes to mind). Looks like you're a bit restricted in the hip turn on the backswing in your 2019 vid, your right knee never loses flexion in the backswing. 

[Augster]

On 8/21/2021 at 11:03 AM, glk said:

Yep that bump/slide will lead to hip pain - basically your ankle, knee, hip , and shoulder are not aligned - hip/knee get outside ankle and shoulder is behind them - makes it stressful to say the least when an attempt is made to rotate into the lead hip.

 

Don't quite follow reluctant to get some good instruction versus a random walk thru tips - but essentially you need to learn how to move in backswing and transition with your knees/hip - AMG is likely the best spot to look.

 

They weren't fixing a slide here but in the main lessons points are how to move the lower body (and upper) properly with drills and work on setup.     Call it a tip or whatever but this is along the lines that someone good would have you working thru.

 

Monte here via facetime etc can give you an almost live lesson where he can walk you thru and make sure you start to do the motion well.    

 

 

This was amazing. Thanks for the link!

[glk]

57 minutes ago, Augster said:

This was amazing. Thanks for the link!

Yep.  When I saw your swing your hips motion just jumped out at me.  You are somewhat the opposite of what the guys in the video was doing.   Narrow stance, move hips toward the target with zero shift to he right first  

- you are going to slide from the momentum of the downswing - can stop it.   And that is without even looking at setup.

 

AMG has two other lessons, one on YouTube and the other Instagram, where the big issue is how the golfer moves their hips and body.

 

this new motion isn’t difficult but it certainly take work - I, like mentioned in the video, over did the movement forward and had to do lots of slow reps and stop and the top to be 50/50 with my feet - and put something a few inches outside my left hip so I could be aware - did this in the house against a wall with no club.   Just lots of reps.

 

And even with those guys helping him you can see how he had to learn the new motion -  seeing someone lie mo the even via the net, would help get this motion done right - do it right a few times in a lesson and you can work - my last two lessons with monte were about extending better in my backswing - first time it was a bad backslide but then 4 months later I still hadn’t gotten rid of the motion - better now but still pay attention to getting my right shoulder over the left foot to end the backswing - a feel.

 

good luck.
 

 

Edited August 22, 2021 by glk

[thejazzmarauder]

Do yourself a huge favor and look into what Mike Adams (former PGA Teacher of the Year) and Terry Rowles teach. Your body wants to swing the club in a particular way based on your biomechanics, and if you try to swing differently than that, you'll struggle.

 

20 years from now, most golf instructors will be doing a physical assessment at the beginning of their first lesson with a new student. These guys are ahead of their time. 

[thejazzmarauder]

20 minutes ago, iSwing said:

Try moving ball more forward then swing inside the back of the ball. 

Lol you should let Rory Mcilroy know