The Questions in My Mind?

[scomac2002]

So I'm about 3 rounds now into reacquainting myself with playing a bit of vintage golf after several years off.  After recovering from my back problems I have played strictly modern at a  poorer level than I used to play.  I had even convinced myself that I needed senior flex graphite in everything because my swing speed had deteriorated so much. 

 

My questions I have are arising from playing what could best be described as a 40 year old set of store line clubs.  We can call it neo-modern because the irons are cavity back and the driver is metal.  The irons are about a club to a club and a half week versus the TM Speedblades irons that I had been playing with previously compete with M flex graphite shafts.

 

How is it that I hit a 40 year old blade like cavity back higher and straighter than the current version of distance iron I was previously using?  Oh and these irons are shafted with Royal Precision FM 5.5 shafts, IOW 130g versus 55g and 5.5 versus 4.0 on the flex scale.

 

How is it that I can hit steel shafted laminate fairway woods higher  and every bit as far as a similar lofted graphite shafted metal wood?  I wouldn't say that dispersion was much different either!

 

How is it that a tiny little foam filled metal driver with a steel shaft can deliver a tee shot further than the highly engineered, high MOI, low spin driver of today in the hands of a guy who probably can't hit 85 mph on Trackman (or similar)?

 

How is it that these low bounce, sharp leading edge wedges of yesteryear are so much easier to get clean contact with than today's high bounce, custom grind, enhanced groove wedges of today?

 

I've read comments on here from various posters who play strictly vintage clubs claim that they can't hit the modern stuff period!  I'm beginning to understand what they're talking about.  These irons are about a club shorter than the moderns and they're also about 5° flatter too.  They have a ton of offset, but they fly true to target without me having to make any compensations.  Modern fitting parameters would suggest that they are completely unsuitable, but the proof on the course says otherwise.  Enquiring minds want to know?

[miamistomp]

Shaft flex is less important than shaft weight

 

Your swing is probably more suited to the heavier shaft

[rgk5]

41 minutes ago, miamistomp said:

Shaft flex is less important than shaft weight

 

Your swing is probably more suited to the heavier shaft

Agreed. Callaway did extensive testing on shaft weight vs flex a few years ago and found that weight was far more important than flex.  Testing was done with an Iron Byron and one of their + handicap fitting staff.

[Wilsonian]

At the risk of sounding ethereal, I think that how we feel about the game has a lot more to do with how we play than we like to think. We are not computers or machines, so the iron byron numbers and stats are fine, as far as they go. But they don't explain the feel part of golf.

 

It may be that you love to play the older stuff, and that triggers something in the mental side of your game that allows you to play better and hit higher quality shots. I just don't think we give enough credit to the feel or feelings that go into golf.

 

There are a lot of us that are left cold by modern equipment. I know I am supposed to hit my modern driver better, but I don't. I'm supposed to hit my modern irons better, but I don't. How much of that is a "feel" thing? The older I get the more important nostalgia is to me. I feel better about myself and my game, and can retreat into my own little world and feel young again. Maybe it's the same for you, maybe not. But I think we can't discount how much "feel" enters into the equation. For me, golf is very much a feel sport, and I'd much rather experience that quail high 4 wood approach and a bump an run up to the hole than the bombed 6 iron and gouged wedge that never seem to end up as close anyway. It may be that you play better simply because you feel better about it.

[scomac2002]

5 hours ago, rgk5 said:

Agreed. Callaway did extensive testing on shaft weight vs flex a few years ago and found that weight was far more important than flex.  Testing was done with an Iron Byron and one of their + handicap fitting staff.

 

Well, that would explain why I have never gotten along particularly well with graphite shafted irons.  Sometimes they're great sometimes it's just awful in terms of quality of strike due to fats and thins.

[Divot License]

Personally I prefer a lighter shaft over a heavier one. The heavier shafts give me a tendency to pull hard on the club from the top whereas the lighter shafts allow me to transition smoothly.

[rwc356]

I think that @Tumbleweed_1968 is spot on with his "ethereal" analysis. I feel much more comfortable and confident swinging clubs 30+ years old than anything modern. Could I play better with the latest technology, maybe but do I have the time to put in the practice - not really. The older clubs just feel right to my 69 year old body so I tend to swing within myself and have fun (hopefully - at least somedays!)

[scomac2002]

Thinking further on this topic:

 

I seem to be mired in a slump at this time.  I've been playing around with different sets of clubs in an attempt to regain a measure of consistency, but that remains elusive.  I am reminded this morning of an advice that I was given by a hickory player a number of years ago.  When describing his style of play he simply stated that with hickories you learn rather quickly to take what the course gives you.  The scorecard is almost an afterthought in that "par" is an artificial number that reflects the outcome if everything went well in the architect's mind.  The measure of a good round is dealing with the challenges presented as best you can whether that be 3 strokes, 6 strokes or 9.  Professional golf makes the goal appear to be par (or better) and missing that viewed as failure.  It's a sure fire way for a recreational player to learn to hate the game.

 

I'm reminding myself in my recent dalliance with vintage that a good shot is a good shot and a poor one is really no poorer than what happens with a bad strike with modern clubs.  There maybe some advantages with near misses in modern clubs due to engineering refinements, but a big miss is still a big miss.  In fact, potentially a bigger miss depending upon club and circumstances.

 

Upthread, feel was mentioned in a reply and for me I know that the older clubs feel different.  This isn't just a measure of length or lie angle (which is decidedly different), but also a sense of inertia where the clubhead cuts through the turf more readily without having the sensation of having to power through with brute force.

 

The few times that I've taken the vintage clubs out have been more fun and more rewarding than playing with modern, especially when I've been playing so poorly.  I think that it's time for me to put the moderns in reserve and play the old school kit for an extended period.  The important thing will be to think about the game a bit differently and try and work with what I've got on any given day.  After all, this is just a game and if we're not having fun there isn't much incentive to tee the ball up.  Here's to fun!

[Fellaheen51]

@scomac2002  Well stated.  Golf is a recreational activity first and foremost.  The enjoyment realized by perhaps playing a wee bit better with the most recent outing compared to the prior.  If not, so be it.  They're always the next one to look forward to.  Contemplating what we're going to try and do better, differently, the next time.  For the fun was had in the trying.  As frustrating as it can be at times.  Yet, some enjoyment was realized, enough that we keep coming back for another go.  Perhaps the lament of the decidedly average player.  But the pursuit towards par in the aggregate brings with it an entirely different set of goals, expectations and frustrations.  Ones that at this stage of life, don't seem all that important to pursue.  It's too much work.  

 

So we persevere.  Here's to playing with the what, where and how that brings us pleasure.  For if golf ain't fun, what's the point.  Know that I'm looking forward to playing another typically mediocre round tomorrow, with the usual suspects, utilizing whatever I decide to put in the bag to mishit all too frequently.  

[Wilsonian]

1 hour ago, scomac2002 said:

it's time for me to put the moderns in reserve and play the old school kit for an extended period.

Very well said post. I'm keeping my moderns in reserve for late fall and spring golf, when the weather and extra clothing restrict my swing.

When it's warm though, the vintage clubs shine.

[cold_war_era_golfer]

7 hours ago, scomac2002 said:

Thinking further on this topic:

 

I seem to be mired in a slump at this time.  I've been playing around with different sets of clubs in an attempt to regain a measure of consistency, but that remains elusive.  I am reminded this morning of an advice that I was given by a hickory player a number of years ago.  When describing his style of play he simply stated that with hickories you learn rather quickly to take what the course gives you.  The scorecard is almost an afterthought in that "par" is an artificial number that reflects the outcome if everything went well in the architect's mind.  The measure of a good round is dealing with the challenges presented as best you can whether that be 3 strokes, 6 strokes or 9.  Professional golf makes the goal appear to be par (or better) and missing that viewed as failure.  It's a sure fire way for a recreational player to learn to hate the game.

 

I'm reminding myself in my recent dalliance with vintage that a good shot is a good shot and a poor one is really no poorer than what happens with a bad strike with modern clubs.  There maybe some advantages with near misses in modern clubs due to engineering refinements, but a big miss is still a big miss.  In fact, potentially a bigger miss depending upon club and circumstances.

 

Upthread, feel was mentioned in a reply and for me I know that the older clubs feel different.  This isn't just a measure of length or lie angle (which is decidedly different), but also a sense of inertia where the clubhead cuts through the turf more readily without having the sensation of having to power through with brute force.

 

The few times that I've taken the vintage clubs out have been more fun and more rewarding than playing with modern, especially when I've been playing so poorly.  I think that it's time for me to put the moderns in reserve and play the old school kit for an extended period.  The important thing will be to think about the game a bit differently and try and work with what I've got on any given day.  After all, this is just a game and if we're not having fun there isn't much incentive to tee the ball up.  Here's to fun!

One of the best posts I've read here!

[scomac2002]

Thank you all for your kind words.  😊

[scomac2002]

Played nine this morning with my newly committed attitude and a bag full of vintage clubs.  It was a thoroughly enjoyable game and I don't recall at any moment being overcome by a bunch of negativity that can sabotage you, shot after shot.

 

I certainly didn't play perfect, but I kept the ball in front of me and worked it towards the hole in surprisingly efficient fashion.  I even managed to avoid the dreaded 3-putt by having one of my better feel games with a flat stick in hand.  Sank a long one on a knobby green and then ran all the rest of my lags to gimme range.

 

Best part of all was that may playing partner and I whistled through the front side in an hour and twenty tops.  Went to the clubhouse for a beverage and decided that breakfast was a more appropriate order for the time of day, so that's what we did.  On the road home just shy of noon.  Life is good! 👍

[BIG STU]

On 8/27/2021 at 2:46 PM, rwc356 said:

I think that @Tumbleweed_1968 is spot on with his "ethereal" analysis. I feel much more comfortable and confident swinging clubs 30+ years old than anything modern. Could I play better with the latest technology, maybe but do I have the time to put in the practice - not really. The older clubs just feel right to my 69 year old body so I tend to swing within myself and have fun (hopefully - at least somedays!)

You are a little older than me but I can relate. The newer CB clubs have thick soles and we are used to butter knife soles. Our AOA and feel is ingrained to play those type clubs since we learned on this type of equipment. Distance is not a factor for me I know what distances I hit my clubs. And others on WRX will debate this for one reason or the other but I can work the ball with my old blades even modern balls that are not tricked up aerodynamically. Some of the balls that are tricked up like a E-6 Bridgestone I can not work with anything. But yeah I am more confident with my old blades. But I for one stick with what I know works for me and could care less what others say or think. 

[BIG STU]

3 hours ago, scomac2002 said:

Played nine this morning with my newly committed attitude and a bag full of vintage clubs.  It was a thoroughly enjoyable game and I don't recall at any moment being overcome by a bunch of negativity that can sabotage you, shot after shot.

 

I certainly didn't play perfect, but I kept the ball in front of me and worked it towards the hole in surprisingly efficient fashion.  I even managed to avoid the dreaded 3-putt by having one of my better feel games with a flat stick in hand.  Sank a long one on a knobby green and then ran all the rest of my lags to gimme range.

 

Best part of all was that may playing partner and I whistled through the front side in an hour and twenty tops.  Went to the clubhouse for a beverage and decided that breakfast was a more appropriate order for the time of day, so that's what we did.  On the road home just shy of noon.  Life is good! 👍

I am about to get healed up enough I can drag my FCs and steel shafted persimmons back out. Sept 24th I plan to play a Hickory event on a Par 3 course here. Did do some short shots yesterday in the yard with whiffle balls with my hickory clubs. 

[Woodridge]

Great thread and heartful posts. I need a different approach myself about now.

[BIG STU]

13 hours ago, Woodridge said:

Great thread and heartful posts. I need a different approach myself about now.

You have to do what makes you happy and no one else----- In other words I have always marched to the beat of my own drum right or wrong and could care less what others say or do

[scomac2002]

Went to the local driving range this afternoon.  First time I've been there.  It's the true definition of goat track to give you an idea of what I'm taking about.  The preferred stations have matts.  I chose to hit off of grass or more appropriately hard pan, on purpose.  This was a bit of a milestone as it's the first time to a range in 4 years following my back injury.  Since then I have played (sort of) but never practiced.  I miss practice.

 

Everyone else was hitting modern stuff of course and you could hear the ping of driver shots with the typical reaction when the result wasn't up to par which was regularly.  I could also hear the thump, thump, thump of iron shots into matts or as was the case of the guy next to me, hard pan.  All I knew was that these guys were swinging way harder than I was and I wasn't sure that they were hitting it any better.  That's the beauty of a thin souled no bounce iron head, you can pick the ball off pavement cleanly if you wanted to!

 

I had a certain amount of fun hitting a variety of shots at my leisure while the other guys were like an assembly line of full gas swings wailing through 60 balls in the same period of time that I hit 30 shots.  I don't recall anybody hitting woods off the deck which I tried a few with varying results.  The most fun was hitting balls out of divots with my Ginty and watching the ball fly straight and true.  I wouldn't have the heart to tell anyone that it's a lady's club as I assume from the L on the shaft label.😉  It made me feel a bit like Freddy Couples...

[Woodridge]

I've spent the last few ranges sessions just hitting punch and knockdown shots with a Hogan Redline 7 iron and a Golfcraft 2 iron. I'm not much of a divot taker and I love feeling the ball compressed compared to my normal glancing blow iron swing. I too see the same thing with people going through a full bucket before I get halfway through mine. To each their own I guess. They probably wonder what the heck I am doing.  I always enjoy watching others hitting balls when I am done practicing and cooling off in the car. There are a lot of different golf swings out there. 

[BIG STU]

4 hours ago, Woodridge said:

I've spent the last few ranges sessions just hitting punch and knockdown shots with a Hogan Redline 7 iron and a Golfcraft 2 iron. I'm not much of a divot taker and I love feeling the ball compressed compared to my normal glancing blow iron swing. I too see the same thing with people going through a full bucket before I get halfway through mine. To each their own I guess. They probably wonder what the heck I am doing.  I always enjoy watching others hitting balls when I am done practicing and cooling off in the car. There are a lot of different golf swings out there. 

The way I got my attitude of " There is not one etched in stone way to swing or properly play this game" was being the starter on the first tee at the course my old man ran. At my old course which was somewhat tourist based I would hit balls early and then sit on a bench in the shade smoking a cigar and drinking coffee watching the tourons hit. Yep I have also seen some different swings over the years

[scomac2002]

6 hours ago, BIG STU said:

The way I got my attitude of " There is not one etched in stone way to swing or properly play this game" was being the starter on the first tee at the course my old man ran. At my old course which was somewhat tourist based I would hit balls early and then sit on a bench in the shade smoking a cigar and drinking coffee watching the tourons hit. Yep I have also seen some different swings over the years

 

That's one of the things I miss from my old golf course job:  sitting in the starter's hut and watching each group tee off.  Every once in a while a player would come through and it was obvious on the first swing.  The first practice swing in fact.  As for the rest of us we're all pretty much the same with our own concocted swings be that as it may.  Some could play quite effectively if they were consistent, but the rest of us always struggle with the dreaded foe of repeatability.  Perhaps the biggest peeve was those hackers that would wait for the 1st green to clear before teeing off assuming that on the first swing of the day they could produce a 300 yard drive.  More often than not it would barely make it to the fairway... 🙄  (FWIW, I never saw anyone drive the green on that hole in 10 years of working.)

[BIG STU]

7 hours ago, scomac2002 said:

 

That's one of the things I miss from my old golf course job:  sitting in the starter's hut and watching each group tee off.  Every once in a while a player would come through and it was obvious on the first swing.  The first practice swing in fact.  As for the rest of us we're all pretty much the same with our own concocted swings be that as it may.  Some could play quite effectively if they were consistent, but the rest of us always struggle with the dreaded foe of repeatability.  Perhaps the biggest peeve was those hackers that would wait for the 1st green to clear before teeing off assuming that on the first swing of the day they could produce a 300 yard drive.  More often than not it would barely make it to the fairway... 🙄  (FWIW, I never saw anyone drive the green on that hole in 10 years of working.)

At my current home course they have a patio over looks a small pond. But you also have a great view of the 10th hole. when I was recovering I would putt on the putting green about 5 balls worth and sit down and look watch people tee off on 10. Came upon a conclusion or maybe a personal observation--- Darn near every one can hit a modern driver except most of these young guys that try to kill it. Most guys our age and older hit the modern Toyota on a stick driver resaonably well. Cant for the life of me can get any of our members to try to hit one of my persimmon drivers though. 

[Fellaheen51]

With deference to the premise of the Classic sub-forum.  No way do I hit a classic/vintage D as good as the modern 460cc D in the bag.  I'm deluding myself thinking I can.  Given my pedestrian skill set, much more consistent being in (or near) the fairway with acceptable relative distance.  A classic, steel shafted wood D requires a near perfect center face ball strike to achieve anything approaching similar results.  While it's fun to take the classics out for a spin, repeatability and reliability is not sufficiently realized to trust them during "prime time" play.  The modernist D being one club in the bag that I pretty darn good, and with a measure of confidence.  When I'm striking the ball about the club face, it still wants to head in a reasonably straight direction.  

 

WTS, can get pretty close wielding a Ping E2 D with OG graphite shaft.  Persimmons, all to frequently shafted with the ubiquitous heavy and stiff steel shaft, have become a bridge too far.  

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

1 hour ago, Fellaheen51 said:

With deference to the premise of the Classic sub-forum.  No way do I hit a classic/vintage D as good as the modern 460cc D in the bag.  I'm deluding myself thinking I can.  Given my pedestrian skill set, much more consistent being in (or near) the fairway with acceptable relative distance.  A classic, steel shafted wood D requires a near perfect center face ball strike to achieve anything approaching similar results.  While it's fun to take the classics out for a spin, repeatability and reliability is not sufficiently realized to trust them during "prime time" play.  The modernist D being one club in the bag that I pretty darn good, and with a measure of confidence.  When I'm striking the ball about the club face, it still wants to head in a reasonably straight direction.  

 

WTS, can get pretty close wielding a Ping E2 D with OG graphite shaft.  Persimmons, all to frequently shafted with the ubiquitous heavy and stiff steel shaft, have become a bridge too far.  

 

The big headed drivers have changed golf so much. I played a persimmon and blades round a few days ago at a course that opened in 2000. It's a tough layout, but one I know well. I the last time I played it with my modern setup I shot 76, and wasn't even striking the ball that well off the tee.

 

Then I played it with my persimmons in similar conditions last week and shot 87. To be fair, my putting was awful (37 putts, including a 4-putt on the last), and my wedge game was bad because I hadn't practised with the SW in my iron set* for months, but the biggest difference was the tee game.

 

With the modern stuff, even though I was not striking it very well, I was still getting distance, but with the persimmon, a mishit is just punished so much more. I used the 3-wood off the tee a lot, because I could get more out of it on a slightly off-centre shot, but that meant hitting a longer iron into the green. Hitting the driver was huge risk; if I nailed it, fine, but a mishit and my ball would go nowhere. 

 

An 11 shot difference. Now, my putting and wedge play account at least 6 or 7 of those shots (33 putts vs. 37). But the modern driver is a game changer. 

 

 

*Mizuno MS-7. Took them out on a whim without any practise, and struggled getting the distance right all day😂 I think the SW is 55 degrees, whereas in my modern set I have a 57* wedge. That would explain why so many of my approach wedge shots were always half a club too long....

[scomac2002]

1 hour ago, Fellaheen51 said:

No way do I hit a classic/vintage D as good as the modern 460cc D in the bag.  I'm deluding myself thinking I can.  Given my pedestrian skill set, much more consistent being in (or near) the fairway with acceptable relative distance.

 

I don't think that any of us under under any illusions with respect to hitting a persimmon driver.  For my vintage rounds the 3W is the preferred tee club even though I have a small headed metal driver.  The miss hits are just punished way too heavily.  It's fine if you have an open tee shot on a long hole and the added distance on a well struck ball could make a difference, but if there's trouble, best to avoid at all costs.

 

That said, I haven't driven the ball well for a very long time, even with the benefit of modern, high MOI heads and graphite shafts.  I have developed a tendency to hit a knuckle ball with that club and the ball just tumbles out of the sky.  I'm hoping that going back to a higher spin head from earlier driver tech might help along with a harder ball that will help to generate more ball speed.  We'll see if that pays dividends or is just another fool's errand.

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

45 minutes ago, scomac2002 said:

 

I don't think that any of us under under any illusions with respect to hitting a persimmon driver.  For my vintage rounds the 3W is the preferred tee club even though I have a small headed metal driver.  The miss hits are just punished way too heavily.  It's fine if you have an open tee shot on a long hole and the added distance on a well struck ball could make a difference, but if there's trouble, best to avoid at all costs.

 

That said, I haven't driven the ball well for a very long time, even with the benefit of modern, high MOI heads and graphite shafts.  I have developed a tendency to hit a knuckle ball with that club and the ball just tumbles out of the sky.  I'm hoping that going back to a higher spin head from earlier driver tech might help along with a harder ball that will help to generate more ball speed.  We'll see if that pays dividends or is just another fool's errand.

 

Knuckle ball...you have my empathy and my sympathy. I am still fighting a smother hook. Nowhere near as bad as two years ago, but it's still there. 

 

As for the bolded part, exactly! 

 

I remember reading golf magazines back in the persimmon days that frequently ran articles urging amateurs to drop the driver, or avoid hitting it off the first tee. Now, modern drivers are the easiest club to hit. 

 

The advice used to be "take a 3w off the first tee". Now, the driver is the go-to club.

[scomac2002]

1 hour ago, No_Catchy_Nickname said:

The advice used to be "take a 3w off the first tee". Now, the driver is the go-to club.

 

I still hit 3W off the first tee even with my modern set.  I've even used a hybrid if I've been in a particularly tough patch swing wise.  I play my best golf when the driver gets used about 4 times a round or less.

[miamistomp]

 Find yourself a persimmon 1 1/2 driver- The big problem is the new balls don't spin and are harder than balata

 

I have this one

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/174775368874?hash=item28b16c7caa:g:VRsAAOSwdz5gpmUH

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

58 minutes ago, miamistomp said:

 Find yourself a persimmon 1 1/2 driver- The big problem is the new balls don't spin and are harder than balata

 

I have this one

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/174775368874?hash=item28b16c7caa:g:VRsAAOSwdz5gpmUH

 

That's an interesting looking driver, especially the insert. My 3w is long for a 3w, so it just about does the job. I have a couple of 2-woods as well which I ought to take out more, but I find they play closer to a driver than a 3w.

 

Balls are always a bit of a problem with persimmon, aren't they? I have some wound surlyns which I sometimes use, but I don't have a huge stock. I also some balatas, but again, not a huge stock.

 

 

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

13 hours ago, scomac2002 said:

 

I still hit 3W off the first tee even with my modern set.  I've even used a hybrid if I've been in a particularly tough patch swing wise.  I play my best golf when the driver gets used about 4 times a round or less.

 

It really depends on the hole for me. With my modern set, I hit my strongest fairway wood (4w or 5w) off the tee a lot. I reckon I probably use the driver about 6 or 7 times a round, but it depends a lot on the course. 

 

One course I play, the driver is the better club off the first hole because I'm more certain of clearing the OB that runs up the right side for the first 200 yards or so.

 

Now, back when I was a junior, the opening hole, a short par 4, featured a shot across a valley. There was a risk/reward, in that a good tee-shot with a driver or 3w could clear the trees (and OB) on a dogleg left, but I usually played safe and hit a 4i straight over the valley to leave a pitch to the green. Seemed straightforward to me back then.

 

I'd hate to have that 4i shot today to start my round. Although with my modern set now, I'd be hitting my 23* hybrid, so it wouldn't be so hard. Didn't have that option when I was younger.