Starting to nail the essence of the Hogan release

[virtuoso]

2 hours ago, MK7Golf21 said:

Pretty good action. I’ve naturally got a hogan release where the hands hide and clubface stays out vs Dtl release where hands flip over. Funny that I gravitate towards Tiger/Scott type swings when I my release is opposite.

 

How did you go about working on your swing, take any lessons? 

I just look at my swing on video and try to make changes.

[virtuoso]

These are sub-sets of Variant 22:

 

 

[virtuoso]

V23 First Stage

 

[moehogan]

1 hour ago, virtuoso said:

V23 First Stage

 

Better right shoulder external rotation and right scapula depression in DS and better left leg extension from P6 to P8. Nice!

[virtuoso]

Just now, moehogan said:

Better right shoulder external rotation and right scapula depression in DS and better left leg extension from P6 to P8. Nice!

Thanks Moe, agreed those are slightly better.

[moehogan]

3 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Thanks Moe, agreed those are slightly better.

Also like the right hand working “under” through P8 … not as much throw.

[MK7Golf21]

why film on such a weird angle in all your vid's, like on a 45* angle. Hard to see what's really going on.

[virtuoso]

14 hours ago, moehogan said:

Also like the right hand working “under” through P8 … not as much throw.

yeah, I've got a pretty good handle on that part--ie, having a passive face angle through impact but not by trying to hold the face open. But the right arm/elbow work in transition is still lacking.

[virtuoso]

42 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

why film on such a weird angle in all your vid's, like on a 45* angle. Hard to see what's really going on.

Its about 10-20 degrees off DTL because it puts the view more inline with the P6-P8 hand path, which is up and left. But, you're right, its a lousy angle to see other things. But, I won't shift it around until I'm happy with this perspective. I'm pretty close to starting a study of other angles--true DTL, face-on, behind and down range.

[MK7Golf21]

1 hour ago, virtuoso said:

Its about 10-20 degrees off DTL because it puts the view more inline with the P6-P8 hand path, which is up and left. But, you're right, its a lousy angle to see other things. But, I won't shift it around until I'm happy with this perspective. I'm pretty close to starting a study of other angles--true DTL, face-on, behind and down range.

 

nice, I was looking at some of your vids the other day. From what I recall you had the shaft more laid off years back vs. now where it is more upright. That something you worked on, like wrist c0ck? You have a very morad swing to my eye.

Edited September 14, 2022 by MK7Golf21

[moehogan]

2 hours ago, virtuoso said:

yeah, I've got a pretty good handle on that part--ie, having a passive face angle through impact but not by trying to hold the face open. But the right arm/elbow work in transition is still lacking.

One swing thought that might help is to pull the handle down from P4 to P6 to just outside the middle of the right thigh with the two middle fingers of the right hand while rotating the entire right arm clockwise to its max ROM.

The right wrist is extended so at P6 the right palm and belly of the right forearm are facing the caddy and the right hand knuckles are facing the right thigh.

 

Remember that Hogan was all about the right hand!

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by moehogan

[virtuoso]

29 minutes ago, moehogan said:

One swing thought that might help is to pull the handle down from P4 to P6 to just outside the middle of the right thigh with the two middle fingers of the right hand while rotating the entire right arm clockwise to its max ROM.

The right wrist is extended so at P6 the right palm and belly of the right forearm are facing the caddy and the right hand knuckles are facing the right thigh.

 

Remember that Hogan was all about the right hand!

 

yeah, that's what I'm trying to do.....I'm just struggling to make it actually happen. But, nothing that 3000 more balls won't cure.

[virtuoso]

1 hour ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

nice, I was looking at some of your vids the other day. From what I recall you had the shaft more laid off years back vs. now where it is more upright. That something you worked on, like wrist c0ck? You have a very morad swing to my eye.

yeah, i have a lot of Morad stuff in my origin story--mostly morad model one. The old Hogan swings with the shaft flat and laid off were done by me just artificially laying the thing down before transition--ie for the wrong reasons. I'm trying to learn how to do it now for the right reasons.

[powerfade66]

21 hours ago, moehogan said:

One swing thought that might help is to pull the handle down from P4 to P6 to just outside the middle of the right thigh with the two middle fingers of the right hand while rotating the entire right arm clockwise to its max ROM.

The right wrist is extended so at P6 the right palm and belly of the right forearm are facing the caddy and the right hand knuckles are facing the right thigh.

 

Remember that Hogan was all about the right hand!

 

An interesting thing he told Horton Smith was he tried to make the right arm a captive of his swing. 

[moehogan]

23 minutes ago, powerfade66 said:

An interesting thing he told Horton Smith was he tried to make the right arm a captive of his swing. 

Yep, winding the right arm clockwise to the end of its ROM will connect it to the torso and sync the entire right side. Then starting around P6, the pivot rotates everything hard counterclockwise. But all of this is largely motivated by the right hand.

 

Here’s a quote from Ken Venturi in a 2004 interview by Guy Yocum, senior writer for Golf Digest … 

“When I describe a golf shot and gesture with one of my hands, it's always the right hand I gesture with. That's because golf is a right-handed game [for right-handers], not a left-handed game as some people believe. Hogan was emphatic about that. The right hand controls the position of the clubface, generates the speed, applies the touch, everything. All the left hand does is hold on to the club, and hopefully not break down on the downswing.”

 

 

[Nitefisher11]

V, thanks for answering my question earlier. Still following and enjoying your 'process'. 

[mizunotpz]

I would advice you to study AMG videos on youtube on the recentering. I think that would bring you more effortless power and better pelvis action. They like Hogan as well.

[teddyironboy]

What do you guys think helps cause Hogan to have the no-cross release?

 

-Great rotation - lower body and chest is definitely a must.

-The arms should be following around the body, like if they're going in-out while body is turning left they're going to cross.

- Shoving the right elbow and really skipping the rock can create some great chest rotation. But it's a lot of manipulation. Really have to shove it through to consistently get hands not to cross.

- Right arm should be bent, decent amount of hip flexion.

- Can't get armsy.

- Mind needs to be tricked into thinking it's going to be pulled? When I feel like I'm going to pull, I'll instinctively hold it off. It can go straight as well, and looks awesome puring a shot with a Hoganesque release. This probably isn't what's happening with Hogan's swing, but not ruling anything out.

 

Best guess? I think chest has to be quite open relative to the arms to really do it consistently. Let's say arms will cross when your hands pass your body's mid-line (don't know exact but decent guess). Further back your arms are at impact gives them more space before they cross the midline. But they got to be in a good position. Got to be sequenced well and look like this at p6. Right arm "external" and bent. The exaggeration rehearsal feeling needs to be at this P6 position for the club to stay in this spot and then open chest/hips like crazy. Feel the stretch in left side and right rotator cuff going external, and then keep this feeling going through impact. This is some manipulation but maybe the body will get used to wanting to be in that exaggerated feel:

 

My best guess at the moment anyways. Curious to hear thoughts.

 

 

[virtuoso]

44 minutes ago, teddyironboy said:

What do you guys think helps cause Hogan to have the no-cross release?

 

-Great rotation - lower body and chest is definitely a must.

-The arms should be following around the body, like if they're going in-out while body is turning left they're going to cross.

- Shoving the right elbow and really skipping the rock can create some great chest rotation. But it's a lot of manipulation. Really have to shove it through to consistently get hands not to cross.

- Right arm should be bent, decent amount of hip flexion.

- Can't get armsy.

- Mind needs to be tricked into thinking it's going to be pulled? When I feel like I'm going to pull, I'll instinctively hold it off. It can go straight as well, and looks awesome puring a shot with a Hoganesque release. This probably isn't what's happening with Hogan's swing, but not ruling anything out.

 

Best guess? I think chest has to be quite open relative to the arms to really do it consistently. Let's say arms will cross when your hands pass your body's mid-line (don't know exact but decent guess). Further back your arms are at impact gives them more space before they cross the midline. But they got to be in a good position. Got to be sequenced well and look like this at p6. Right arm "external" and bent. The exaggeration rehearsal feeling needs to be at this P6 position for the club to stay in this spot and then open chest/hips like crazy. Feel the stretch in left side and right rotator cuff going external, and then keep this feeling going through impact. This is some manipulation but maybe the body will get used to wanting to be in that exaggerated feel:

 

My best guess at the moment anyways. Curious to hear thoughts.

 

 

I think there’s a lot of truth in all of that, but you have to keep your powder dry on the torso rotation until after you start to get the pelvis to shift far enough to the left.

 

[moehogan]

2 hours ago, teddyironboy said:

What do you guys think helps cause Hogan to have the no-cross release?

 

-Great rotation - lower body and chest is definitely a must.

-The arms should be following around the body, like if they're going in-out while body is turning left they're going to cross.

- Shoving the right elbow and really skipping the rock can create some great chest rotation. But it's a lot of manipulation. Really have to shove it through to consistently get hands not to cross.

- Right arm should be bent, decent amount of hip flexion.

- Can't get armsy.

- Mind needs to be tricked into thinking it's going to be pulled? When I feel like I'm going to pull, I'll instinctively hold it off. It can go straight as well, and looks awesome puring a shot with a Hoganesque release. This probably isn't what's happening with Hogan's swing, but not ruling anything out.

 

Best guess? I think chest has to be quite open relative to the arms to really do it consistently. Let's say arms will cross when your hands pass your body's mid-line (don't know exact but decent guess). Further back your arms are at impact gives them more space before they cross the midline. But they got to be in a good position. Got to be sequenced well and look like this at p6. Right arm "external" and bent. The exaggeration rehearsal feeling needs to be at this P6 position for the club to stay in this spot and then open chest/hips like crazy. Feel the stretch in left side and right rotator cuff going external, and then keep this feeling going through impact. This is some manipulation but maybe the body will get used to wanting to be in that exaggerated feel:

 

My best guess at the moment anyways. Curious to hear thoughts.

 

 

This pic is from a film shoot at Augusta in the spring of 1947 just prior to the Masters. It’s pre-secret, as he said he found the cure for the occasional, untimely hook in July 1947. 
 

According to him, it was a change that he was able to successfully implement in one range session. He battled tested it two weeks later and won. His swing was already elite as he had won the Vardon Trophy in 1940 & 1941 and his first major in 1946 at the PGA Championship. So, IMO, it had to be a small tweak.

 

I think you’re correct to be looking at opposing forces related to clubface control.

 

[powerfade66]

1 hour ago, moehogan said:

This pic is from a film shoot at Augusta in the spring of 1947 just prior to the Masters. It’s pre-secret, as he said he found the cure for the occasional, untimely hook in July 1947. 
 

According to him, it was a change that he was able to successfully implement in one range session. He battled tested it two weeks later and won. His swing was already elite as he had won the Vardon Trophy in 1940 & 1941 and his first major in 1946 at the PGA Championship. So, IMO, it had to be a small tweak.

 

I think you’re correct to be looking at opposing forces related to clubface control.

 

Earlier swing sequences and flip books show it was quite a big tweak. He went from a crossover to release to not having much crossover at all until midway into the follow through as teddy has also noticed. What you see in the photos you use is just the effect of motion and heavy wooden heads. It’s never going to match up closely address to impact. 
 

I’ll find a good one for after later. 

[moehogan]

6 minutes ago, powerfade66 said:

Earlier swing sequences and flip books show it was quite a big tweak. He went from a crossover to release to not having much crossover at all until midway into the follow through as teddy has also noticed. What you see in the photos you use is just the effect of motion and heavy wooden heads. It’s never going to match up closely address to impact. 
 

I’ll find a good one for after later. 

Can’t remember the exact year but I’m pretty sure these pics are from the 1930s. He obviously continued to progress enough into the 1940s to win the two Vardons and the PGA. He had developed a great swing pre-secret but the adrenaline of competition every now and then caused his right hand to close too rapidly. The last tweak solved that problem! 

[powerfade66]

9 minutes ago, moehogan said:

Can’t remember the exact year but I’m pretty sure these pics are from the 1930s. He obviously continued to progress enough into the 1940s to win the two Vardons and the PGA. He had developed a great swing pre-secret but the adrenaline of competition every now and then caused his right hand to close too rapidly. The last tweak solved that problem! 

It’s from 1940. If you ask Jeff Martin his form between 1940 and 1947 is because of the black driver Byron Nelson gave him. Which then broke in 1947. I don’t buy that as being much more than a help as opposed to the primary reason for his transition into a winning machine. 

[teddyironboy]

9 hours ago, virtuoso said:

I think there’s a lot of truth in all of that, but you have to keep your powder dry on the torso rotation until after you start to get the pelvis to shift far enough to the left.

 

 

Great stuff. Probably a issue of every golfer who realizes they need to have their hips open at impact, hips way outrace the arms. Also a lot of decent juniors nowadays will get open pretty early, be super open at impact (in a good way, not with arms outracing). Then because they stall a little after impact, their arms might be racing through the body's midline despite having a very open impact position, causing the cross-over. It's not a bad thing, it's just not going to have the no-cross release. It also looks "correct" on camera when through impact, the arms and hips are moving in unison.

 

I didn't realize just how much Hogan went forward. Looks like he'll move off just under a ball as you can see his trail hip has less space between the red lines than his lead hip. Also his head moves back a little bit. But then at impact, it looks like he is 2 balls forward of the original hip line. His thigh is outside the hip line a bit which can give the illusion of sliding forward even more. One thing to note is his head does not move back at impact like most people, which is especially interesting given he's hitting a driver. I haven't looked for this often when watching tour pro face-on videos, but I think even they move their heads back, at least for the driver. Having the head not move back at impact is a sign of good rotation, and also swinging through the ball - not hitting at it.

 

When I swing, I kind of reverse pivot, my lead hip will be at the line at impact, but the follow through it goes behind the lead line. https://streamable.com/a8i9ho. My momentum could be going back in transition because of the reverse pivot, so to go forward again might not be possible. For me, if I get forward like this I'll cut across the ball with a steeper AOA of like 5-6 with a 7 iron when it's usually 4. D-plane stuff. But I'll not doing it correctly, will try what you said in your video. 🤙

 

 

6 hours ago, moehogan said:

This pic is from a film shoot at Augusta in the spring of 1947 just prior to the Masters. It’s pre-secret, as he said he found the cure for the occasional, untimely hook in July 1947. 
 

According to him, it was a change that he was able to successfully implement in one range session. He battled tested it two weeks later and won. His swing was already elite as he had won the Vardon Trophy in 1940 & 1941 and his first major in 1946 at the PGA Championship. So, IMO, it had to be a small tweak.

 

I think you’re correct to be looking at opposing forces related to clubface control.

 

 

So he had all the things I posted - incredible stall-less rotation, open chest, right arm bent, and still crossed over. Whatever he did, really was the cherry on top.

 

Opposing forces in which part of the swing?

 

 

5 hours ago, powerfade66 said:

Earlier swing sequences and flip books show it was quite a big tweak. He went from a crossover to release to not having much crossover at all until midway into the follow through as teddy has also noticed. What you see in the photos you use is just the effect of motion and heavy wooden heads. It’s never going to match up closely address to impact. 
 

I’ll find a good one for after later. 

 

You probably didn't misunderstand, but just want to clarify, midline through body as in basically the area where hands are in front of the chest when holding the club. Didn't mean midway through follow through. When hands pass around this area, it's going to flip over. Can notice this holding an imaginary club, and swinging your body around, whether standing straight up or in golfing position.

Edited July 17, 2023 by teddyironboy

[MK7Golf21]

6 hours ago, teddyironboy said:

 

Great stuff. Probably a issue of every golfer who realizes they need to have their hips open at impact, hips way outrace the arms. Also a lot of decent juniors nowadays will get open pretty early, be super open at impact (in a good way, not with arms outracing). Then because they stall a little after impact, their arms might be racing through the body's midline despite having a very open impact position, causing the cross-over. It's not a bad thing, it's just not going to have the no-cross release. It also looks "correct" on camera when through impact, the arms and hips are moving in unison.

 

I didn't realize just how much Hogan went forward. Looks like he'll move off just under a ball as you can see his trail hip has less space between the red lines than his lead hip. Also his head moves back a little bit. But then at impact, it looks like he is 2 balls forward of the original hip line. His thigh is outside the hip line a bit which can give the illusion of sliding forward even more. One thing to note is his head does not move back at impact like most people, which is especially interesting given he's hitting a driver. I haven't looked for this often when watching tour pro face-on videos, but I think even they move their heads back, at least for the driver. Having the head not move back at impact is a sign of good rotation, and also swinging through the ball - not hitting at it.

 

When I swing, I kind of reverse pivot, my lead hip will be at the line at impact, but the follow through it goes behind the lead line. https://streamable.com/a8i9ho. My momentum could be going back in transition because of the reverse pivot, so to go forward again might not be possible. For me, if I get forward like this I'll cut across the ball with a steeper AOA of like 5-6 with a 7 iron when it's usually 4. D-plane stuff. But I'll not doing it correctly, will try what you said in your video. 🤙

 

 

 

So he had all the things I posted - incredible stall-less rotation, open chest, right arm bent, and still crossed over. Whatever he did, really was the cherry on top.

 

Opposing forces in which part of the swing?

 

 

 

You probably didn't misunderstand, but just want to clarify, midline through body as in basically the area where hands are in front of the chest when holding the club. Didn't mean midway through follow through. When hands pass around this area, it's going to flip over. Can notice this holding an imaginary club, and swinging your body around, whether standing straight up or in golfing position.

 

Lots of pro's who are way open through the swing and have a cross over release. I think it has more to do with the arms swinging down the line or to the right vs. around the body. I naturally have a hogan type release, the only way I can get a cross over release is to intentionally flip at it with my normal swing or swing more to the right on the downswing.

[teddyironboy]

6 hours ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

Lots of pro's who are way open through the swing and have a cross over release. I think it has more to do with the arms swinging down the line or to the right vs. around the body. I naturally have a hogan type release, the only way I can get a cross over release is to intentionally flip at it with my normal swing or swing more to the right on the downswing.

 

After a session hitting balls focusing on this more I think you're right. The hands crossing midline doesn't seem to be much of a thing.

[powerfade66]

14 hours ago, teddyironboy said:

 

Great stuff. Probably a issue of every golfer who realizes they need to have their hips open at impact, hips way outrace the arms. Also a lot of decent juniors nowadays will get open pretty early, be super open at impact (in a good way, not with arms outracing). Then because they stall a little after impact, their arms might be racing through the body's midline despite having a very open impact position, causing the cross-over. It's not a bad thing, it's just not going to have the no-cross release. It also looks "correct" on camera when through impact, the arms and hips are moving in unison.

 

I didn't realize just how much Hogan went forward. Looks like he'll move off just under a ball as you can see his trail hip has less space between the red lines than his lead hip. Also his head moves back a little bit. But then at impact, it looks like he is 2 balls forward of the original hip line. His thigh is outside the hip line a bit which can give the illusion of sliding forward even more. One thing to note is his head does not move back at impact like most people, which is especially interesting given he's hitting a driver. I haven't looked for this often when watching tour pro face-on videos, but I think even they move their heads back, at least for the driver. Having the head not move back at impact is a sign of good rotation, and also swinging through the ball - not hitting at it.

 

When I swing, I kind of reverse pivot, my lead hip will be at the line at impact, but the follow through it goes behind the lead line. https://streamable.com/a8i9ho. My momentum could be going back in transition because of the reverse pivot, so to go forward again might not be possible. For me, if I get forward like this I'll cut across the ball with a steeper AOA of like 5-6 with a 7 iron when it's usually 4. D-plane stuff. But I'll not doing it correctly, will try what you said in your video. 🤙

 

 

 

So he had all the things I posted - incredible stall-less rotation, open chest, right arm bent, and still crossed over. Whatever he did, really was the cherry on top.

 

Opposing forces in which part of the swing?

 

 

 

You probably didn't misunderstand, but just want to clarify, midline through body as in basically the area where hands are in front of the chest when holding the club. Didn't mean midway through follow through. When hands pass around this area, it's going to flip over. Can notice this holding an imaginary club, and swinging your body around, whether standing straight up or in golfing position.

I see it as pretty much synonymous. Not crossing over through impact like Rory and Phil and others. The right crossing over the left occurs later and never does fully into the club down the back finish ie some time mid follow through. Whether talking about keeping arms back or keeping club up left arm longer or crossing over later the effect is much the same. 

[moehogan]

15 hours ago, teddyironboy said:

 

Great stuff. Probably a issue of every golfer who realizes they need to have their hips open at impact, hips way outrace the arms. Also a lot of decent juniors nowadays will get open pretty early, be super open at impact (in a good way, not with arms outracing). Then because they stall a little after impact, their arms might be racing through the body's midline despite having a very open impact position, causing the cross-over. It's not a bad thing, it's just not going to have the no-cross release. It also looks "correct" on camera when through impact, the arms and hips are moving in unison.

 

I didn't realize just how much Hogan went forward. Looks like he'll move off just under a ball as you can see his trail hip has less space between the red lines than his lead hip. Also his head moves back a little bit. But then at impact, it looks like he is 2 balls forward of the original hip line. His thigh is outside the hip line a bit which can give the illusion of sliding forward even more. One thing to note is his head does not move back at impact like most people, which is especially interesting given he's hitting a driver. I haven't looked for this often when watching tour pro face-on videos, but I think even they move their heads back, at least for the driver. Having the head not move back at impact is a sign of good rotation, and also swinging through the ball - not hitting at it.

 

When I swing, I kind of reverse pivot, my lead hip will be at the line at impact, but the follow through it goes behind the lead line. https://streamable.com/a8i9ho. My momentum could be going back in transition because of the reverse pivot, so to go forward again might not be possible. For me, if I get forward like this I'll cut across the ball with a steeper AOA of like 5-6 with a 7 iron when it's usually 4. D-plane stuff. But I'll not doing it correctly, will try what you said in your video. 🤙

 

 

 

So he had all the things I posted - incredible stall-less rotation, open chest, right arm bent, and still crossed over. Whatever he did, really was the cherry on top.

 

Opposing forces in which part of the swing?

 

 

 

You probably didn't misunderstand, but just want to clarify, midline through body as in basically the area where hands are in front of the chest when holding the club. Didn't mean midway through follow through. When hands pass around this area, it's going to flip over. Can notice this holding an imaginary club, and swinging your body around, whether standing straight up or in golfing position.

Grip pressures.

[virtuoso]

I’m going to start a new thread more related to the pivot than the release because I’m starting to understand Hogan’s move better now. But, really it will be focused on the sequencing part and synchronization part. Misunderstanding the sync part has kept me from getting either the pivot or release correct. You have to sync them up a certain way or you have no chance.

Edited July 19, 2023 by virtuoso

[teddyironboy]

Latest thoughts. Before I said before hands crossing midline would help prevent the flip, but now I think it mostly contributes to the high release. Have the arms lagging quite a bit behind and a very open chest at impact. At least when I do that, after impact my arms will shoot up and around to catch up with my body. I know Hogan did fire his right hand, but I feel like it had to have been P5-ish, at least past the transition. It wouldn't be enough to catch up with his body.

 

The no-flip part I believe is still the arm and pivot path being in the same direction, or arms being pretty close to the body. Whenever I exaggerate pivoting hard and getting my butt deep and to my left side, it's so far left of my hand path that it is flip city, even if my arm path is coming left too. But when they match they don't flip. An example of a bad match is this, if the arms followed the right arrow, and the pivot followed the left arrow.

 

On an older swing I posted somewhere I think I was purposely manipulating my arms to hold it off. But this current swing has no manipulation besides lagging my arms behind my chest as much as I can in transition. No shallowing sort of manipulation anywhere. So however the arms behave is just a natural reaction to the pivot and getting the chest open. I'm holding off, without trying to due to the hand and pivot path being in synch. Also think the club is really shooting through P8-P9. Like the club is swinging on it's own and I'm just hanging on for the ride. Unlike Hogan though I'm actively not trying to fire my arms.

https://streamable.com/cl6kw2

https://streamable.com/wc76iy

(more apparent at 25% speed)