I need help, I have tired for 6+ years and its still the same......insert Einstein quote.

Exactice808 · October 19, 2021

*Edit, just saw it was moved to the Instruction Forum*

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As this thread is more now directed to swing help, I need help.... please.... 😂

Im going to start with, I am just venting frustration. So humor me 😃

I have no idea where to start, Golf has lost its enjoyment period. Equipment and Instruction is where I hang out and I really enjoy that portion of the game, but playing it lately has become more of a burden then an enjoyment. I have played a lot less golf since my kids went back to school, they have been priority.

08/01/2021 - I just spent about $3,000 on building a simulator to try to improve (Mevo+, hitting setup and projector setup) .... I am struggling to break 90's, I was a solid 12hdcp, shooting between 75 and 85 on any given day (just depended who showed up). The sim was to get practice time and play time that I have not had the chance since kids are back in school.

I practice almost everyday now, just hitting and even playing course simulators.

Now its 88-94 and MASSIVE chokes, other day I missed 4 birdie putts all within 5 feet, 2 of which where inside of 2 ft just for personal satisfaction that I Missed....this killed me.

The next round after shooting an easy 42 front, I take a 10 on a par 4, to close with a 47, (89)

The next round after that I shoot another easy 40 front and then go 8 & 8, to close the round 53 (93)

Im choking bad, I am missing in the worse spots, I am taking HUGE numbers.

I can take 1 nine, and shoot solid and completely melt down on the second 9.

Whats worse, ON the home simulator its the same thing. I thought using the home simulator could help curb the demons, Or help me work out the 2, nines. But Hell even on the simulator where there is water and I aim further away from the water, it goes in the water. Its like my brain is toying with me to mess up.

I am currently just drilling a "go to" swing to keep the ball in play....Working with the Sim I thought I had worked out the spray off the tee, but once I hit the course... its ALL over the creation.

I am assuming I have been "practicing" almost as much as I did years ago (no kids lol) when I was down to a single digit. Yet I am worse than I was a couple years ago by a LOT.

Im losing a crap ton of confidence and worst off blowing $3000 has netted me nothing but higher scores.. I wont say its buyers remorse, but I thought practice would help......

What am I doing wrong?

Edited October 21, 2021 by Exactice808

jvincent · October 19, 2021

As somebody who went from a pretty consistent 7-ish index to a 12 in the space of a season (I'm back down now so bear with me) maybe I can help.

The first thing, and this is going to hurt, is the Mevo+ is not, IMHO, a good practice tool. It is a gaming launch monitor. In order to truly practice and improve you need to have a launch monitor that MEASURES club head data and ball data. Period.

My story. I used to have a flat swing and played strong but consistent draw with driver. A few seasons ago I wanted to get more upright/on plane to help my iron consistency. Over the winter I worked on it using a simulator setup that only measure ball data. I changed my plane and the numbers suggested I was making solid contact. When I got onto the course I could not keep driver in play for the life of me. It was a struggle.

Once I eventually got onto a real launch monitor I figured out that in changing my plane I had also moved my swing path from in-out to out-in. Hard to play a draw with that path. I moved to fade and am back a solid 5-6 index. My point here is that what I was seeing in the simulator was not an accurate representation of what was happening in my swing. Ball data alone is simply not good enough to use for real practice.

My guess is that you are grooving some kind of bad move using the Mevo numbers because it simply doesn't provide the right data to actually give you the correct feedback. What feels like solid contact and a straight shot might actually be an over the top pull. Then you get onto the course and when you make what you think is a good pass at the ball and see a bad result you make changes, spray the ball, lose confidence and it spirals down from there.

I hate to say it but if you really want to practice with a sim you need to ditch the Mevo+ and figure out something else.

Socrates · October 19, 2021

Practice without an instructor (that isn't you) is recipe for failure. All that happens is that you groove bad habits. You are now going to need a boatload of help to repair the damage. A long time ago I spent a winter "fixing" a swing. Felt and looked good. Got outside in the spring and there wasn't a fairway wide enough for anything longer than a wedge. Went from a 5 to an 18 hcp overnight.

Fast forward a couple of decades and a back injury led me to stacking unbelievably on my left side. If I timed the swing right I could shoot 75. The next day could be 95. I was at a point of quitting. Saw a very good instructor and he showed me how bad it was (video didn't lie). It was a painful 6 months to repair most of the faults, but without his help I would have quit golf. I couldn't climb out of the rabbit hole by myself. 2+ years down the road, I'm back to hovering between 4 & 6 hcp. And yes, I still see him for correction of bad things that creep in.

Exactice808 · October 19, 2021

@jvincent Hey! Thanks for the input. To be fair, I am totally openminded and Appreciate the feedback. Your points are VERY well acknowledge and well validated. If I may add context for further discussion, not do disagree, buy try to see if I can "evolve"

I didnt buy the mevo+ to fix my swing, my swing is my swing, but it was to drill down some type of consistency. Unfortunately I am not talented so I require practice to maintain. If I dont practice, things go off the rail. Prior to the kids I would go to the range twice a week and seemingly was able to maintain lower score average due to the practice? So I am not really try to fix anything or use the ball data to change much, but I would like to take 10+ swings with the PW (or any iron) and they go in the same direction with consistency.

The GREATEST gains I have is the short game practice with the Mevo+ actually. Only lately I have been hitting driver (Scared to hit it in the house LOL) I use the flat putting area and hit 15-75y shots for almost half an hour daily. Then maybe use the range session if the kids are not destroying anything in the other room. When the wife comes home I will "quickly" play 18 holes, just to get out of the Grooving 50, 8 irons shots on the "range". I Wonder if I Play 18 holes "quickly" is not helping? I can do 18 holes in about an hour?

Id hate to admit my swing is SO messed up that I need to do a whole new swing revamp, (I accept my swing was not at all that good to begin with, but seemingly good enough to shoot 70's once in a while, but shoot mid to low 80's with a higher level of consistency.)

Anyways, to be honest, I dont look much at the data, rather than the ball flight, I just want my ball to land in some kind of consistent circle, not caring too much about ball data to be completely honest.

Exactice808 · October 19, 2021

1 hour ago, Socrates said:

Practice without an instructor (that isn't you) is recipe for failure. All that happens is that you groove bad habits. You are now going to need a boatload of help to repair the damage. A long time ago I spent a winter "fixing" a swing. Felt and looked good. Got outside in the spring and there wasn't a fairway wide enough for anything longer than a wedge. Went from a 5 to an 18 hcp overnight.

Fast forward a couple of decades and a back injury led me to stacking unbelievably on my left side. If I timed the swing right I could shoot 75. The next day could be 95. I was at a point of quitting. Saw a very good instructor and he showed me how bad it was (video didn't lie). It was a painful 6 months to repair most of the faults, but without his help I would have quit golf. I couldn't climb out of the rabbit hole by myself. 2+ years down the road, I'm back to hovering between 4 & 6 hcp. And yes, I still see him for correction of bad things that creep in.

100%, I am a hypocrite I accept that. MANY and I mean many have helped me on this forums through the years, either I am stubborn, cheap or just an idiot. But thats part of the fun. Sadly, the only difference now, is that this is the first time effort has netted me nothing and its discouraging. I do have some funds now, so it may be time to actually invest in a lesson or 2......

The weird part is I dont feel like quitting, I feel "angry"/discouraged, it actually makes me practice harder and longer. BUT now, like you and @jvincent stated, I might be grooving some BAD habits........ ugh...

On that side note though.... if I may ask.... its not like I am shooting 45 & 45. I am shooting 42 & 47, or 40 and 53. The blowups are ridiculous. Is there something mentally or a physically breakdown that cause these large discrepancy. I mean if my swing was really bad, shooting a 42 or 40 or hell prior to that a 39 but then shooting a 46 for 85 was discouraging as well.

Just curious why I cant string them together? thoughts

Edited October 19, 2021 by Exactice808

Valtiel · October 19, 2021

1 hour ago, Socrates said:

Practice without an instructor (that isn't you) is recipe for failure. All that happens is that you groove bad habits.

This exactly. Almost everything about the golf swing is a Chinese finger trap of unintuitive learned movements, and when we "try" harder it is almost always destructive. There is a very good reason no one is lighting up the tour that started playing at 20, because those learned movements are much easier to ingrain at a young age.

In order to improve on your own, you need to be able to feel within moments of hitting the ball exactly why the shot was bad from a mechanical standpoint and what you can do to fix it. This requires a level of knowledge and understanding that takes a lot of work, hence why we usually just hire professionals.

In the meantime, in response to "what am I doing wrong?", try pulling a George Costanza and do literally the opposite of whatever your instincts are. The ball went in the water when you were aimed well away from it? Cool, you probably did something bad with your alignment/swing path, so next time aim directly AT the water and see what happens. The goal is to simply try different things, because in all likelihood you are trying the same things over and over again, whether you're aware of it or not, and are getting worse and worse results as you get frustrated. Feel free to post some swing videos too if you can, at minimum there will be someone that can point out the source of your troubles there.

jvincent · October 19, 2021

1 hour ago, Exactice808 said:

I didnt buy the mevo+ to fix my swing, my swing is my swing, but it was to drill down some type of consistency. Unfortunately I am not talented so I require practice to maintain. If I dont practice, things go off the rail. Prior to the kids I would go to the range twice a week and seemingly was able to maintain lower score average due to the practice? So I am not really try to fix anything or use the ball data to change much, but I would like to take 10+ swings with the PW (or any iron) and they go in the same direction with consistency.

...

Anyways, to be honest, I dont look much at the data, rather than the ball flight, I just want my ball to land in some kind of consistent circle, not caring too much about ball data to be completely honest.

Just to comment on these two points because I think it might be indicative of the issue.

Years ago, before launch monitors and simulators were a thing, I went to a winter golf school where you hit balls about 20-30 yards into a net. I thought I was working on solid contact but all I was doing was grooving a wicked pull. I had no concept of where I was aiming and where the ball was going in the real world.

Using your setup as you describe in the second paragraph, to evaluate ball flight, may be the issue. The Mevo+ and other similar devices are great tools for certain things but my experience suggests that they don't give enough data to give important feedback.

On something like a GCQuad you get all the club data as well as the simulated ball flight so the feedback that you get is "better". On a GQQuad (or similar) if you hit a crappy one, it doesn't hide it.

So, using the Mevo to keep things like your tempo, clubhead speed, etc. in tune is certainly not a bad idea but if you're looking at it for directional feedback I'd be careful.

Good luck!

Socrates · October 19, 2021

Just to put an exclamation point on all above, I had sudden mid-round periods of poor play this season. My first clue should have been the amount of effort it took to make a swing some days. Should feel effortless.

Finally went to my instructor and he ripped off the band-aides in 10 minutes. Poor setup and take-away mechanics were the root of the issues - again!! So easy to slip into a bad habit and deceive yourself into thinking you can fix it yourself. Should have gone to see him in the spring as I planned. I'll see him this week again to check my progress. It's a process.

Exactice808 · October 19, 2021

1 hour ago, Valtiel said:

This exactly. Almost everything about the golf swing is a Chinese finger trap of unintuitive learned movements, and when we "try" harder it is almost always destructive. There is a very good reason no one is lighting up the tour that started playing at 20, because those learned movements are much easier to ingrain at a young age.

In order to improve on your own, you need to be able to feel within moments of hitting the ball exactly why the shot was bad from a mechanical standpoint and what you can do to fix it. This requires a level of knowledge and understanding that takes a lot of work, hence why we usually just hire professionals.

In the meantime, in response to "what am I doing wrong?", try pulling a George Costanza and do literally the opposite of whatever your instincts are. The ball went in the water when you were aimed well away from it? Cool, you probably did something bad with your alignment/swing path, so next time aim directly AT the water and see what happens. The goal is to simply try different things, because in all likelihood you are trying the same things over and over again, whether you're aware of it or not, and are getting worse and worse results as you get frustrated. Feel free to post some swing videos too if you can, at minimum there will be someone that can point out the source of your troubles there.

Understood, Ok I have a stupid admission in regards to doing something over and over. I have a simulator with ZERO consequence to "practice" yet, When I play 18 holes, I do not skip I do not cheat, I dont mulligan or replay a shot, I just keep playing like I am playing. Of course the bad attitude arises and I throw a hissy fit. I wonder, If I should use the simulator to my advantage, to "redo" the shot to build confidence not look at it as its cheating or not real golf. To better understand why I do what I do, and make corrections. Like you said I could/can, replay that shot, but maybe aim at the water instead.

Anyways, I fear I have posted videos before, got fixes tried them for a while and went right back to the old swing. Let me setup the camera again and see what happens.

jvincent · October 19, 2021

27 minutes ago, Socrates said:

Just to put an exclamation point on all above, I had sudden mid-round periods of poor play this season. My first clue should have been the amount of effort it took to make a swing some days. Should feel effortless.

Finally went to my instructor and he ripped off the band-aides in 10 minutes. Poor setup and take-away mechanics were the root of the issues - again!! So easy to slip into a bad habit and deceive yourself into thinking you can fix it yourself. Should have gone to see him in the spring as I planned. I'll see him this week again to check my progress. It's a process.

I have a list of setup / swing keys on my phone. I should really have them engraved on the head of my driver.

Was having a struggle with driver the other day. On the 14th hole I figured out that my posture was bad. Guess what the second point on my setup list is? Striped the ball off the tee for the remaining holes.

Exactice808 · October 20, 2021

41 minutes ago, jvincent said:

Just to comment on these two points because I think it might be indicative of the issue.

Years ago, before launch monitors and simulators were a thing, I went to a winter golf school where you hit balls about 20-30 yards into a net. I thought I was working on solid contact but all I was doing was grooving a wicked pull. I had no concept of where I was aiming and where the ball was going in the real world.

Using your setup as you describe in the second paragraph, to evaluate ball flight, may be the issue. The Mevo+ and other similar devices are great tools for certain things but my experience suggests that they don't give enough data to give important feedback.

On something like a GCQuad you get all the club data as well as the simulated ball flight so the feedback that you get is "better". On a GQQuad (or similar) if you hit a crappy one, it doesn't hide it.

So, using the Mevo to keep things like your tempo, clubhead speed, etc. in tune is certainly not a bad idea but if you're looking at it for directional feedback I'd be careful.

Good luck!

Interesting. Ok please bear with me as I would like to take it to a separate tangent.

I've gone from an SC100, where I used that the chase ball speeds/swing speeds. NO really ball data/flight data. Just how fast I swing and how fast the ball goes

I then moved to a ES14 which provides a little more ball data, but NO directional data.

Then of course the Mevo+

I have been wanting directional because of my seemingly weak, dispersion (current issue). Which I found. (with the mevo+)

OK so please dont hammer me too much, but as you mentioned years ago without LM's, you really could not tell much about "club" data but only deduce issues with ball flight right? Generically, an instructor would see your ball flight and basically figure out issues like your swing path, your face angle and you spin purely on the ball flight?

I am being stubborn or ignorant, but thats why I want to see flight, If I have a 125y target and my PW in hand, I want to hit 10 out of 10 in a 5y circle around the flag, for my ability is that not acceptable? Doesnt ball data, imply club data? Starting direction, AoA, Spin and spin axis? Same with a Driver,

If the ball starts off right of target and slices right with X amount side spin and launch. I dont need "club" data to necessarily, tell me that I started the path either neutral or right of target line and face wide open with an in to out swing.

Or if the ball starts left of target then slices, meaning I have a closed face to target and in to out causing the slice? I am sure I am over simplifying, but surely why I am asking the questions now.

So you stated something that "peaked" my interest. The Mevo+ is not giving me enough data, for important feedback. Based on what I noted my issues above. What data do you think would actually be relevant? (curiosity) ?

Exactice808 · October 20, 2021

42 minutes ago, Socrates said:

Just to put an exclamation point on all above, I had sudden mid-round periods of poor play this season. My first clue should have been the amount of effort it took to make a swing some days. Should feel effortless.

Finally went to my instructor and he ripped off the band-aides in 10 minutes. Poor setup and take-away mechanics were the root of the issues - again!! So easy to slip into a bad habit and deceive yourself into thinking you can fix it yourself. Should have gone to see him in the spring as I planned. I'll see him this week again to check my progress. It's a process.

Interesting!..... Ugh, There really is no way around it, it seems.

I guess its hard for me to accept this fact. I played 7 years straight with an older group once a week, I am their junior by a minimum of 15-25 years. They have been playing the same golf all these years, yet I am an accordion compared to them.

I recently been playing with guys my age/ a little younger and these guys are BEAST. 1 is a junior golfer and the other was a coach (Talent no less) But frustrates me as There is a fundamental difference, they are robots..... I am all over the creation. Why? Why cant I be a robot LOL. Why are they so much better, I have "All" the shots and abilities to hit it as far as they do. They just hit it straight or towards their intended target, I almost have no control?

well... maybe its time to go look up an instructor....

lefthack · October 20, 2021

Relax, it's totally a game. Unless your tour card is in jeopardy, then I feel for you.

PJE · October 20, 2021

Because you invited commentary and based upon your post about choking, inconsistency, and blow up holes, I offer this:

Your problem is not physical.

Your problem is not your swing other than you may no longer be swinging the club and instead trying to achieve positions within the swing. So, you may have screwed up your natural motion. That particular affliction, if it exists with your swing, is likely temporary.

Your problem is emotional/mental and your expectations. You are trying too damn hard.

Take one week off of the simulator or picking up a club.

Then, go play. Swing the club, hard, and without thought to score or how the swing should feel.

Go back to the simulator to play little games in trying to achieve a specific shot or to simply relax.

You will play better and will stop "choking" as you put it. Eventually, you will be back to your old, reliable 12 handicap self, and you can go lower if you focus on the enjoyment of the game versus the outcome.

The preceding advice worked for me so that's why I posted. I hope it is helpful advice and I hope it doesn't sound harsh. At one point, I spent about a year in the same purgatory as you and when I stopped obsessing over my progress, stopped having swing thoughts, stopped worrying about my score, stopped being frustrated, I played pretty darn well.

Valtiel · October 20, 2021

30 minutes ago, Exactice808 said:

I wonder, If I should use the simulator to my advantage, to "redo" the shot to build confidence not look at it as its cheating or not real golf. To better understand why I do what I do, and make corrections

Yup, that is exactly what I would do. Hell, I do that ON the course. 😅

Exactice808 · October 20, 2021

2 minutes ago, lefthack said:

Relax, it's totally a game. Unless your tour card is in jeopardy, then I feel for you.

My pride is shot, The old man beat me 2 weeks in a row, Granted I give him 3 and 3, But I should still be moping the floor with him.

Cant let those old guys that dont reach par3 on the fly, kick my butt. I havent had a green in a month. Old man has hybrids lands it 10y short to 5ft for birdie ever other Par3. IT KILLS ME LOL!

Exactice808 · October 20, 2021

2 minutes ago, PJE said:

Because you invited commentary and based upon your post about choking, inconsistency, and blow up holes, I offer this:

Your problem is not physical.

Your problem is not your swing other than you may no longer be swinging the club and instead trying to achieve positions within the swing. So, you may have screwed up your natural motion. That particular affliction, if it exists with your swing, is likely temporary.

Your problem is emotional/mental and your expectations. You are trying too damn hard.

Take one week off of the simulator or picking up a club.

Then, go play. Swing the club, hard, and without thought to score or how the swing should feel.

Go back to the simulator to play little games in trying to achieve a specific shot or to simply relax.

You will play better and will stop "choking" as you put it. Eventually, you will be back to your old, reliable 12 handicap self, and you can go lower if you focus on the enjoyment of the game versus the outcome.

The preceding advice worked for me so that's why I posted. I hope it is helpful advice and I hope it doesn't sound harsh. At one point, I spent about a year in the same purgatory as you and when I stopped obsessing over my progress, stopped having swing thoughts, stopped worrying about my score, stopped being frustrated, I played pretty darn well.

I appreciate and in no way harsh in the slightest. I accept I am student forever, but I enjoy learning from all aspects especially others willing to bring insight to widen my perspective.

I mostly certain agree with your points..... I really just thought "more" practice can make me better? I was a Cross Country Runner in Highschool. The more I ran and the further I ran, the faster and easier it got.

Golf..... well not the same it seems.

Exactice808 · October 20, 2021

3 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

Yup, that is exactly what I would do. Hell, I do that ON the course. 😅

See I think part of my pride is stopping from improving. As the other posters mentioned getting a lesson. Well.... Pride is likely stopping me from seeing an instructor..... FFS... I have to get over it !

Valtiel · October 20, 2021

39 minutes ago, Exactice808 said:

See I think part of my pride is stopping from improving. As the other posters mentioned getting a lesson. Well.... Pride is likely stopping me from seeing an instructor..... FFS... I have to get over it !

Yeah i'd agree with that, hah. I searched your thread history to see if I could find the videos you posted previously. Found something from 2016 but the video wasn't available anymore. I did notice a long history of alternating threads between "Aha moments!" and "Why is the golf swing so complicated" and "Deterioration of golf" so I think it is safe to say that the amount you're stuck in your head and number of good answers contained within it are in inverse proportion. 😜

Any improvements I effected on my own came from getting obsessed with the "why" and actually working to achieve a satisfactory understanding of it, and NOT an "Aha" moment brought on a momentary understanding of something that never sticks. Why am I getting stuck in my backswing and having such a hard time hitting draws recently? My takeaway got too flat and I had to reroute slightly over the top which turns an attempted draw into a pull, cool, let's fix the takeaway and get to a more neutral position at the top. Why am I pushing putts all of the sudden? My left hand grip pressure increased and got too involved in the release which always keeps me from releasing the putter head correctly, cool, weaken/lighten my left hand pressure. All of this stuff is about "neutralizing" something. Neutralizing a wonky takeaway, neutralizing an alignment issue, neutralizing grip strength/position, neutralizing SOMETHING that is forcing more extreme compensations later in the swing. You almost have to do this with video aid, because we can't be trusted to feel what is actually happening in a golf swing. We think we've changed something and literally nothing is different. We think we're REALLY exaggerating a move or position and it actually barely registers visually.

If you have the means to put in reps then you need the right direction, get some swing vids up! 👍

jvincent · October 20, 2021

1 hour ago, Exactice808 said:

I am being stubborn or ignorant, but thats why I want to see flight, If I have a 125y target and my PW in hand, I want to hit 10 out of 10 in a 5y circle around the flag, for my ability is that not acceptable? Doesnt ball data, imply club data? Starting direction, AoA, Spin and spin axis? Same with a Driver,

If the ball starts off right of target and slices right with X amount side spin and launch. I dont need "club" data to necessarily, tell me that I started the path either neutral or right of target line and face wide open with an in to out swing.

Or if the ball starts left of target then slices, meaning I have a closed face to target and in to out causing the slice? I am sure I am over simplifying, but surely why I am asking the questions now.

So you stated something that "peaked" my interest. The Mevo+ is not giving me enough data, for important feedback. Based on what I noted my issues above. What data do you think would actually be relevant? (curiosity) ?

The challenge without having all the club numbers (path and face angle) is that you really aren't sure what the root cause for the ball flight is and that's the missing feedback.

If the unit calculates a "pull-draw" is that because you were out to in with a slightly closed face or square with really closed face? At a certain point the algorithm is going to have to make some assumptions about clubhead path based on the measured ball path and spin. The ball measurements will be accurate enough to give you a pretty accurate ball flight estimate but when you start to factor in the location of face contact (especially for driver) you can see how the algorithm can be off for giving you accurate club head data.

If you start to make swing changes/adjustments based on an incorrect assumption of what you are doing with the clubhead that's where the potential for mixups happens in my experience.

It's probably less of an issue for irons just based on the lack of bulge/roll in the irons but by the same token clubhead path issues probably don't show up as much in iron readings because the impact on spin axis is probably not as large. Specifically a wipey fade, face square/path a lot out to in, and a good fade, path slightly out to in/face open, might look the same on the unit but are the result of very different swings.

LBB · October 20, 2021

Queue the cliches...

Golf is 90% mental...blah blah blah

Take it one shot at a time...blah blah blah

I don't think your struggles has anything to do with grooving bad habits. If it did, you would just play crappy all the time. Making 8's and 10's in the same round you're making 6-7 pars or better is not because you need better lessons...it's because you can't keep it together between the ears. For someone who practices everyday, has had previous ability to be a 12 cap...struggling to converting 2 foot putts...that's not your stroke.

Can you do things to improve your game from a fundamental and technique perspective? Of course you can...we all can. But until you clear your head, I don't imagine you're going to shake the issues that is currently causing you frustration. Sure...maybe it will just pass on it's own, but I think your quickest path to better golf, as well as HAVING MORE FUN while you golf has nothing to do with your swing or putting stroke.

If it were me...I'd consider some of the following options to hit the reset button mentally...some of which I have actually tried. YMMV

Step away from the game for a week or more. For someone that practices everyday...you're not going to suddenly forget how to golf.
If you do insist on practicing, take away all the detailed metrics. Turn off the display for launch angle, ball speed, club speed, spin, etc. Just hit shots and don't obsess over 500 rpms or 5 mph of ball speed. Just hit balls and focus on good contact. Who cares if it draws or fades 3-5 yards...that's not why you're making 8's or 10's
If you do insist on playing...don't keep score. Or if you're OCD where you have to keep score, then just play with 6 clubs so you reduce expectations.
If your full swing is getting out of whack while practicing or on the course, devote an entire session or round to just playing half shots.
Get with a group to play scrambles, or chug a beer every other hole, or do something so you can break the connection between pressures or penalties of bad shots/play.

I quit golf for a about 10 years because it wasn't fun anymore. Through some level of maturity, and realizing that golf is supposed to be fun, I now play better and also enjoy it regardless of how I play. I've had plenty of rounds shooting 48 on the front only to pull it together for a 39 on the back. It's not that anything drastically changed with my swing...is that I didn't let my mind get into a bad place, tried to keep having fun, and just let the good parts of my game naturally show itself rather than thinking...I have to do X for the next 12 holes to shoot Y.

It's not to say you need to step away for 10 years too...I just so happened to get hooked on another hobby that took all my time. But disconnecting the correlation between the result of a shot and my how my attitude/behavior on the course was pivotal to having fun, and for the most part, shooting better scores.

Edited October 20, 2021 by LBB

DShepley · October 20, 2021

17 hours ago, Exactice808 said:

Im going to start with, I am just venting frustration. So humor me 😃

I have no idea where to start, Golf has lost its enjoyment period. Equipment and Instruction is where I hang out and I really enjoy that portion of the game, but playing it lately has become more of a burden then an enjoyment. I have played a lot less golf since my kids went back to school, they have been priority.

08/01/2021 - I just spent about $3,000 on building a simulator to try to improve (Mevo+, hitting setup and projector setup) .... I am struggling to break 90's, I was a solid 12hdcp, shooting between 75 and 85 on any given day (just depended who showed up). The sim was to get practice time and play time that I have not had the chance since kids are back in school.

I practice almost everyday now, just hitting and even playing course simulators.

Now its 88-94 and MASSIVE chokes, other day I missed 4 birdie putts all within 5 feet, 2 of which where inside of 2 ft just for personal satisfaction that I Missed....this killed me.

The next round after shooting an easy 42 front, I take a 10 on a par 4, to close with a 47, (89)

The next round after that I shoot another easy 40 front and then go 8 & 8, to close the round 53 (93)

Im choking bad, I am missing in the worse spots, I am taking HUGE numbers.

I can take 1 nine, and shoot solid and completely melt down on the second 9.

Whats worse, ON the home simulator its the same thing. I thought using the home simulator could help curb the demons, Or help me work out the 2, nines. But Hell even on the simulator where there is water and I aim further away from the water, it goes in the water. Its like my brain is toying with me to mess up.

I am currently just drilling a "go to" swing to keep the ball in play....Working with the Sim I thought I had worked out the spray off the tee, but once I hit the course... its ALL over the creation.

I am assuming I have been "practicing" almost as much as I did years ago (no kids lol)  when I was down to a single digit. Yet I am worse than I was a couple years ago by a LOT.

Im losing a crap ton of confidence and worst off blowing $3000 has netted me nothing but higher scores.. I wont say its buyers remorse, but I thought practice would help......

What am I doing wrong?

Someone else said it, but you are trying too hard. Relax. Better scores happen when you aren't trying to do it. Examine your blow up holes, where are you losing shots? Is it penalties or other reasons. I watch a lot of mid to high handicap players I play with lose strokes because they attempt shots they have no business trying, hero escapes from trees, fescue, etc. rather than pitching out. The biggest issue I continually see though is higher handicap players taking two chips / pitches to get on the green because they tried to over play the shot...this results most times in a double bogey or worse where simply getting the ball on the green in the first try would have resulted in a bogey at worst (assuming a 2 putt). Learn how to make 'bogey' the worst outcome....to save strokes, you have to limit the double bogey. As for putting, your simulator isn't going to be much help there. Learn to make putts from 5 feet and in and the rest of your putting will improve naturally the only way to do this is to practice it....a lot....

bladehunter · October 20, 2021

14 hours ago, Valtiel said:

This exactly. Almost everything about the golf swing is a Chinese finger trap of unintuitive learned movements, and when we "try" harder it is almost always destructive. There is a very good reason no one is lighting up the tour that started playing at 20, because those learned movements are much easier to ingrain at a young age.

In order to improve on your own, you need to be able to feel within moments of hitting the ball exactly why the shot was bad from a mechanical standpoint and what you can do to fix it. This requires a level of knowledge and understanding that takes a lot of work, hence why we usually just hire professionals.

In the meantime, in response to "what am I doing wrong?", try pulling a George Costanza and do literally the opposite of whatever your instincts are. The ball went in the water when you were aimed well away from it? Cool, you probably did something bad with your alignment/swing path, so next time aim directly AT the water and see what happens. The goal is to simply try different things, because in all likelihood you are trying the same things over and over again, whether you're aware of it or not, and are getting worse and worse results as you get frustrated. Feel free to post some swing videos too if you can, at minimum there will be someone that can point out the source of your troubles there.

Listen to this ^^^^^^ and then read it again lol.

I just spent an entire season struggling with putter. Again. Refusing to swap clubs , hitting it great and losing more and more confidence to the point that I had backslid all the way back to where I was two years ago. And stats wise that is going from an average of 29 putts a round to now 34…. And ballooning to -4.93 strokes gained putting. That’s losing 5 shots a round .

I kept pounding my head against the wall. Why ? We’re told to not swap clubs around. Not to make changes. Go down rabbit holes etc. “ set the bag “ etc. mostly that’s good advice. But. You have to be able to keep the mind open.

frustrated beyond belief I spoke with a mentor yesterday evening about swapping putters , methods ( armlock ) or even going left handed. 🤪. He calmed me down and then made a phone call. 45 minutes later he had another pro on our putting green to give us a fresh pair of eyes. 5 putts in the other guys says “ there’s nothing wrong with his mechanics. Except his left hand is way strong , to the point of nearly reverse shaft lean ….. Let me see The putter “. I hand her to him. And he says “ are you blind “? To which I answered “ well. Maybe. I am extremely left eye dominant, what do you mean “? Then he says “ I’ll be back in a minute. Goes in the pro shop and blows my grip off. Slides a new one on and comes back. Hands it to me. And says “now grip it and go. Don’t look at it “

I did. And immediately started making putts.

the problem. I had put a new grip on in January. It was rotated to the right. I was putting my left hand on to match the crooked grip. This was adding loft. And causing face rotation issues ( I play a strong arc ) . Being left eye dominant, it’s all skewed anyway , so it hadn’t dawned on me. I was aware of how I couldn’t get comfortable with my hands , but it never clicked what was wrong.

I putted for 2 hours last night. And made everything. And finally my wife called me home. Lol.

my point. If you’ve beat your head again this the wall for a month. Stop. Do something opposite. Don’t be hard headed like me. Thank you Mr Haas !

Socrates · October 20, 2021

10 hours ago, LBB said:

Queue the cliches...

Golf is 90% mental...blah blah blah

Take it one shot at a time...blah blah blah

I don't think your struggles has anything to do with grooving bad habits. If it did, you would just play crappy all the time. Making 8's and 10's in the same round you're making 6-7 pars or better is not because you need better lessons...it's because you can't keep it together between the ears.

I'm living proof that you can for brief periods of time, overcome 5 bad things by adding a 6th and cancelling them all out to make it work for a few holes. Even whole rounds. All the while, the bad grooved things were still there. Just applied a band-aide for a short period of time. For me it was figuring out how to sync up a lunge and a flip to hit a decent looking shot. I saw the video of such a swing I made and it was a miracle of athletic talent that I even made contact. Correcting the root issues is paramount.

Zitlow · October 20, 2021

14 hours ago, Valtiel said:

This exactly. Almost everything about the golf swing is a Chinese finger trap of unintuitive learned movements, and when we "try" harder it is almost always destructive.

It's a catch 22. Most golf instructors are as lost as everyone else.

Exactice808 · October 20, 2021

17 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Yeah i'd agree with that, hah. I searched your thread history to see if I could find the videos you posted previously. Found something from 2016 but the video wasn't available anymore. I did notice a long history of alternating threads between "Aha moments!" and "Why is the golf swing so complicated" and "Deterioration of golf" so I think it is safe to say that the amount you're stuck in your head and number of good answers contained within it are in inverse proportion. 😜

Any improvements I effected on my own came from getting obsessed with the "why" and actually working to achieve a satisfactory understanding of it, and NOT an "Aha" moment brought on a momentary understanding of something that never sticks. Why am I getting stuck in my backswing and having such a hard time hitting draws recently? My takeaway got too flat and I had to reroute slightly over the top which turns an attempted draw into a pull, cool, let's fix the takeaway and get to a more neutral position at the top. Why am I pushing putts all of the sudden? My left hand grip pressure increased and got too involved in the release which always keeps me from releasing the putter head correctly, cool, weaken/lighten my left hand pressure. All of this stuff is about "neutralizing" something. Neutralizing a wonky takeaway, neutralizing an alignment issue, neutralizing grip strength/position, neutralizing SOMETHING that is forcing more extreme compensations later in the swing. You almost have to do this with video aid, because we can't be trusted to feel what is actually happening in a golf swing. We think we've changed something and literally nothing is different. We think we're REALLY exaggerating a move or position and it actually barely registers visually.

If you have the means to put in reps then you need the right direction, get some swing vids up! 👍

Thanks, I am gun shy to post videos again. I admitting pride and ego, But yes, back in the day when I was really on a groove to improve, (single digit) wanting to take it to the "next" level, I posted quite a bit on how to improve.

The sad realization after going through my youtube uploads, nothing changed after 6 years on the forums, I still had Early Extension and could not get rid of it, Drilled like crazy and no noticeable improvements. Scoring did improve though, but due to better chipping techniques and better putting as well.

Anyways, I accept that I wont be a touring pro, but surely as mention in the first post, not having fun, Not enjoying it, Not playing at a level I thought I should be at least. I am getting some current videos going as soon as I am done editing, you can rip it apart LOL!

Here are some examples,

2015-

2018 -

Good god....... 2019 (disregard the timestamp is wrong)

I assume 2021 does have some changes, again will post... but probaby not significant to address the obvious issues. Im posting driving as we can see that as the MOST prevalent of swing issues, irons a little more compact and hard to spot the obvious.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Exactice808

Exactice808 · October 20, 2021

17 hours ago, jvincent said:

The challenge without having all the club numbers (path and face angle) is that you really aren't sure what the root cause for the ball flight is and that's the missing feedback.

If the unit calculates a "pull-draw" is that because you were out to in with a slightly closed face or square with really closed face? At a certain point the algorithm is going to have to make some assumptions about clubhead path based on the measured ball path and spin. The ball measurements will be accurate enough to give you a pretty accurate ball flight estimate but when you start to factor in the location of face contact (especially for driver) you can see how the algorithm can be off for giving you accurate club head data.

If you start to make swing changes/adjustments based on an incorrect assumption of what you are doing with the clubhead that's where the potential for mixups happens in my experience.

It's probably less of an issue for irons just based on the lack of bulge/roll in the irons but by the same token clubhead path issues probably don't show up as much in iron readings because the impact on spin axis is probably not as large. Specifically a wipey fade, face square/path a lot out to in, and a good fade, path slightly out to in/face open, might look the same on the unit but are the result of very different swings.

Interesting for the depth of data. I am concerned that while even knowing the minute of data, the "body" or the "mind" wont change. Members here have given some meaningful instruction/suggestions. In the pursuit of trying to get better I put effort to try those suggestions to no avail.

Anyways, I respect the response and the only real answer is to take the lesson if its beyond my comprehension or ability to correct it on my own.

Exactice808 · October 20, 2021

15 hours ago, LBB said:

Queue the cliches...

Golf is 90% mental...blah blah blah

Take it one shot at a time...blah blah blah

I don't think your struggles has anything to do with grooving bad habits. If it did, you would just play crappy all the time. Making 8's and 10's in the same round you're making 6-7 pars or better is not because you need better lessons...it's because you can't keep it together between the ears. For someone who practices everyday, has had previous ability to be a 12 cap...struggling to converting 2 foot putts...that's not your stroke.

Can you do things to improve your game from a fundamental and technique perspective? Of course you can...we all can. But until you clear your head, I don't imagine you're going to shake the issues that is currently causing you frustration. Sure...maybe it will just pass on it's own, but I think your quickest path to better golf, as well as HAVING MORE FUN while you golf has nothing to do with your swing or putting stroke.

If it were me...I'd consider some of the following options to hit the reset button mentally...some of which I have actually tried. YMMV

Step away from the game for a week or more. For someone that practices everyday...you're not going to suddenly forget how to golf.

If you do insist on practicing, take away all the detailed metrics. Turn off the display for launch angle, ball speed, club speed, spin, etc. Just hit shots and don't obsess over 500 rpms or 5 mph of ball speed. Just hit balls and focus on good contact. Who cares if it draws or fades 3-5 yards...that's not why you're making 8's or 10's

If you do insist on playing...don't keep score. Or if you're OCD where you have to keep score, then just play with 6 clubs so you reduce expectations.

If your full swing is getting out of whack while practicing or on the course, devote an entire session or round to just playing half shots.

Get with a group to play scrambles, or chug a beer every other hole, or do something so you can break the connection between pressures or penalties of bad shots/play.

I quit golf for a about 10 years because it wasn't fun anymore. Through some level of maturity, and realizing that golf is supposed to be fun, I now play better and also enjoy it regardless of how I play. I've had plenty of rounds shooting 48 on the front only to pull it together for a 39 on the back. It's not that anything drastically changed with my swing...is that I didn't let my mind get into a bad place, tried to keep having fun, and just let the good parts of my game naturally show itself rather than thinking...I have to do X for the next 12 holes to shoot Y.

It's not to say you need to step away for 10 years too...I just so happened to get hooked on another hobby that took all my time. But disconnecting the correlation between the result of a shot and my how my attitude/behavior on the course was pivotal to having fun, and for the most part, shooting better scores.

This is the underlying discuss I thought to have, As I have accepted I do not have a tour level swing or ability. But the expectations or the potential is there to shoot "decent" scores.

its not like I have a 90mph Driver swing speed expecting to hit 250 regularly, I have a 100mph swing, but I hit 240 average because the average wayward shot is all over the creation. Its the same with the score as you pointed out, If had a bad swing my over all game would suck I would be shooting boggies and double boggies. Well no I have pars and birdies and 8's and 10's blow ups. Which I cant seem to shake>

*Coolstorybro* time.......

I took the kids to the par3 this past Sunday, (First time ever) Test run, 4 clubs including putter, so 3 irons and went there to have fun with the kids, for the most part it was fun... it went well till the turn when my son started complaining about being tired, So the 12th hole said last hole we are going home. OMG.... the dreaded Sh^%&k........ 4 of them later, said we are done and went home.

I went straight to my indoor to work it out. 5 swings later back to normal....but holy crap that scared me..... Thus the creation of this thread..... I got some mental demons.

Anyways.... take a break.... could be the option, I just thought drilling away would get rid of the demons...... I dunno anymore...its well......discouraging

mgoblue83 · October 20, 2021

18 hours ago, Exactice808 said:

Interesting. Ok please bear with me as I would like to take it to a separate tangent.

I've gone from an SC100, where I used that the chase ball speeds/swing speeds. NO really ball data/flight data. Just how fast I swing and how fast the ball goes

I then moved to a ES14 which provides a little more ball data, but NO directional data.

Then of course the Mevo+

I have been wanting directional because of my seemingly weak, dispersion (current issue). Which I found. (with the mevo+)

OK so please dont hammer me too much, but as you mentioned years ago without LM's, you really could not tell much about "club" data but only deduce issues with ball flight right? Generically, an instructor would see your ball flight and basically figure out issues like your swing path, your face angle and you spin purely on the ball flight?

I am being stubborn or ignorant, but thats why I want to see flight, If I have a 125y target and my PW in hand, I want to hit 10 out of 10 in a 5y circle around the flag, for my ability is that not acceptable? Doesnt ball data, imply club data? Starting direction, AoA, Spin and spin axis? Same with a Driver,

If the ball starts off right of target and slices right with X amount side spin and launch. I dont need "club" data to necessarily, tell me that I started the path either neutral or right of target line and face wide open with an in to out swing.

Or if the ball starts left of target then slices, meaning I have a closed face to target and in to out causing the slice? I am sure I am over simplifying, but surely why I am asking the questions now.

So you stated something that "peaked" my interest. The Mevo+ is not giving me enough data, for important feedback. Based on what I noted my issues above. What data do you think would actually be relevant? (curiosity) ?

Everything you said is correct. The mevo+ gives more than enough solid ball data to improve your swing. (Assuming it's properly setup). Is it as accurate as Trackman or GCQ? No. But it is consistently accurate enough to be a great tool.

The only exception is high speed driver shots that are not hit in the center of the face as it cannot see the gear effect.

Valtiel · October 21, 2021

5 hours ago, Exactice808 said:

Thanks, I am gun shy to post videos again. I admitting pride and ego, But yes, back in the day when I was really on a groove to improve, (single digit) wanting to take it to the "next" level, I posted quite a bit on how to improve.

The sad realization after going through my youtube uploads, nothing changed after 6 years on the forums, I still had Early Extension and could not get rid of it, Drilled like crazy and no noticeable improvements. Scoring did improve though, but due to better chipping techniques and better putting as well.

Anyways, I accept that I wont be a touring pro, but surely as mention in the first post, not having fun, Not enjoying it, Not playing at a level I thought I should be at least. I am getting some current videos going as soon as I am done editing, you can rip it apart LOL!

Here are some examples,

2015-

2018 -

Good god....... 2019 (disregard the timestamp is wrong)

I assume 2021 does have some changes, again will post... but probaby not significant to address the obvious issues. Im posting driving as we can see that as the MOST prevalent of swing issues, irons a little more compact and hard to spot the obvious.

Thank you for posting those. Despite all the superficial differences in those swings I am seeing one big thing in common with all of them, and that is a backswing that is ending with a disconnection of your hands and arms that then requires a save/compensation later in transition. In these three different swings we see a beautiful example of a concept Monte has talked about before; what happens when we attempt to do the "right" things from the wrong places. Let me explain my understanding of how this works a bit and how it applies to your swings.

We're told we need to do all these things to transition "correctly" to make consistent contact. Fire the lower body, drop the hands into a "slot", maintain depth during our rotation, don't flip/cast/hump and all these things. Then there is the very simple idea that since this is all attempting to happen in around 1/4 of a second that there is no way we can consciously engage with/execute on these movements, there just isn't enough time. The focus then has to shift more towards "setting the table" properly so these things are more "allowed to happen" than we force them to. So let's take a look:

Starting from P2, the club is right over your hands so that is a good place to start. You continue back a little flatter/deeper a la Mcilroy, which is fine, BUT it means there are certain things that need to happen re: "setting the table". Flatter and deeper in the backswing means a premium is placed on both rotation and keeping your hands from getting stuck behind you. Worth noting as well, your head is getting closer to the ball at this stage, which for many people can be a bit of a trigger to early extend since "head moving towards the ball" is often countered with "head moving away from the ball" later in the swing, which our body often accomplishes by standing up/losing spine angle to back up. This isn't the main issue, but its a contributing factor IMO.

Here is where the issue starts. The shaft plane and clubhead start changing drastically here with otherwise minimal body movement. This is the beginning of your hands/arms getting disconnected and overrunning.

You continue to tuck the club further behind you here, and we see that club actually starting to cross the line in transition. These things don't *look* bad in isolation, but it is what your body did to get there that is the important part.

Looking closely at Rory here as an example, everything is more or less moving together. On your end though, you reach a natural "top" of your backswing, but then hinge the club behind you and start pulling your right shoulder further back. Notice how Rory's left shoulder basically never stops turning up to the top of the backswing, and notice how at the beginning of your gif that your left shoulder has basically stopped and your right shoulder breaks away and starts dropping behind you. You've disconnected your right side to create a new "hinge" to continue your backswing. In these few frames you have created a whole mess of little things that need to be undone/compensated for, you've "set the table" in such a way that recovering from this becomes a big part of your downswing, and your ability to do that will always be a roll of the dice. I'm sure you've found little "Aha moments" that have helped you deal with this, but the fact they haven't lasted is because you likely haven't treated the underlying problem.

A version of this exists in the other swings you posted as well where it looks like you experimented with different, flatter positions:

This backswing position is very hard to salvage. It has everything I described above but *more*. Your hands are so far behind you and disconnected from your body, and the clubhead has gotten so far around you that all your focus and energy shifts towards finding a way to get the club back to the ball. Setting the table "correctly" means minimizing the number of things you need to "fix" to get to the ball, and the above position has so many things in need of fixing that it makes perfect sense your early extension and loss of spine angle is the most extreme here.

Getting rid of these extra moves at the top and swinging within what your body can handle is crucial if you want to get back on track. @LBB is right about the mental components, but @Socrates is right in that no amount of mental fortitude can make up for foundational flaws in a swing. It can help you deal WITH them, but it doesn't fix them and the permanent roll of the dice they introduce. Shorten your backswing (make what feels like 3/4 swings) and get used to that as a new normal. You'll probably lose speed at first, but it will return as you adjust. If this move has come about because you're trying to "complete your backswing" or "make a full turn", then adjust to the idea that you already did, but kept going and are now out of balance.

I hope that resonates and please feel free to follow up if you decide to try this out.