Reduce the fields in golf tournaments?

[Titleist99]

Billy Horschel thinks that there is too many millionaires on tour. He thinks that there is no incentive to get better.
That is the most insane thing that I've heard in a while. Billy would have the tour lower the tour to one hundred players and the Korn Ferry tour to twenty five. Golf is a real sport now, the players are not paid enough Billy.....leave the field as they are and just up the purses and favor the top half. The tour cold always make it harder to retain the cards but to reduce the fields is a set back to golf......compared to football, baseball, basketball....golf is lagging behind in compensation for the talent. what's your take?

Billy is still one of my favorite players even tho he has gone insane.....IMO

I'm totally paraphrasing ......maybe I have Billy all wrong.....LOL!

[bscinstnct]

BHo wants the tour to be harder?

 

In 11 years he’s amassed a grand total of 2 top-20s in the Majors.

 

If the tour was any harder, he’d be standing outside the ropes yelling,

 

”Bababooey!”

 

 

[kasting333]

Some of these guys just like to talk without anything thoughtful to say. 
 

This instance sounds like he went off the cuff with a half baked idea

[Titleist99]

didn't the Korn Ferry recently go up to the additional twenty five cards? I'm talking within the the last couple of years.....

[Creedo77]

22 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

didn't the Korn Ferry recently go up to the additional twenty five cards? I'm talking within the the last couple of years.....

The 25 regular season and 25 play off cards started in ( I think) 2013

[Hawkeye77]

Not sure on his solution, but he's making a point that's been made fairly and a fair amount of times over the past many years with the way exemptions work and how you get there and what it takes to stay there for newer players.  Good luck getting to play on the Champions Tour for many.  Tour became more of a "closed shop" and pretty protective of status in many ways going back to the Finchem reach around season and the new Finchohan changes in scheduling, compressing the "real" schedule, and actions related to access.  

 

It's nice to hear the occasional voice of dissent among the ranks.  

[NJBigFish22]

What a dumb take.  He should ask for a refund from Florida for any tuition not covered by scholarship.  

[Titleist99]

144-156 players enter a tournament and 65 get paid for making the cut. Oh, yes....the winner should get more than 18% of the total purse.....and the purses should be increased by the PGATOUR instead of PIP money distributed to player for nonsense on twitter, Instagram, etc......JMO  

 

Regular Tour event....winner $2M

Major Tournament.....winner $4M

FedEx Cup ........$20M Jackpot

 

That'll keep the players on the PGATOUR. Because you keep your card doesn't mean the player is get crazy money.

[Hawkeye77]

9 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

144-156 players enter a tournament and 65 get paid for making the cut. Oh, yes....the winner should get more than 18% of the total purse.....and the purses should be increased by the PGATOUR instead of PIP money distributed to player for nonsense on twitter, Instagram, etc......JMO  

 

Regular Tour event....winner $2M

Major Tournament.....winner $4M

FedEx Cup ........$20M Jackpot

 

That'll keep the players on the PGATOUR. Because you keep your card doesn't mean the player is get crazy money.

Roger Sloan (who caught a 10 day hot streak late in the season so folks other than his mom knew who he was - figuratively, my Canadian friends) missed 10 cuts, 10 cuts, and made over $1m. And good for him. But Billy has a point. 14 millionaires already and barely into the season.

[bscinstnct]

10 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Roger Sloan (who caught a 10 day hot streak late in the season so folks other than his mom knew who he was - figuratively, my Canadian friends) missed 10 cuts, 10 cuts, and made over $1m. And good for him. But Billy has a point. 14 millionaires already and barely into the season.

Yes, RS deserves every penny. And that’s lame for BHo to seem to say a guy like him isn’t fighting in the trenches and doing all he can.

 

Hes probably been makin no money and eating ramen just to have a shot to play and now finally makin a few bucks.

 

Him and lots of guys got no guarantee, they could play all year make 75k

 

Now compare that to some guy in the MLB miss 100 games, hit .211, and make $4 Million!

[Titleist99]

14 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

Yes, RS deserves every penny. And that’s lame for BHo to seem to say a guy like him isn’t fighting in the trenches and doing all he can.

 

Hes probably been makin no money and eating ramen just to have a shot to play and now finally makin a few bucks.

 

Him and lots of guys got no guarantee, they could play all year make 75k

 

Now compare that to some guy in the MLB miss 100 games, hit .211, and make $4 Million!

Yep, if golf's going to be a real sport then they should get paid like it. I want every high schooler to say "Hey, golfers get paid....I think I'll give it a try"

[grm24]

6 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

I'm totally paraphrasing ......maybe I have Billy all wrong.....LOL!

No kidding. Here are his actual comments.

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/billy-horschel-2021-race-to-dubai-dp-championship

 

“We should make the tour more competitive,” he continued. “We would change the way the money pays out where the top 30, 40 guys get paid a lot of money and then you don't get paid as much down below, so it really pushes guys to really do everything they can to be the best player they can be.

 

Instead of giving out 125 cards every year, we cut it down to 100. And if we cut down the Korn Ferry cards from 50 to 30, you make the fields 120. Now you're getting the better players week in and week out. Doing that takes care of any other tour that comes along to compete against the PGA Tour or the European Tour.”

[grm24]

3 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

144-156 players enter a tournament and 65 get paid for making the cut. Oh, yes....the winner should get more than 18% of the total purse.....and the purses should be increased

The PGA Tour has already reduced the cut numbers to the low 65 and ties for a number of years now. Old news. Purses are already being increased due this season due to the new television contract dollars kicking in. This is already in addition to the PIP money. The winner of a tour event does deserve more than 18% of the purse value. That point is also old news and has been discussed for years. 

[MattyO1984]

2 hours ago, grm24 said:

No kidding. Here are his actual comments.

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/billy-horschel-2021-race-to-dubai-dp-championship

 

“We should make the tour more competitive,” he continued. “We would change the way the money pays out where the top 30, 40 guys get paid a lot of money and then you don't get paid as much down below, so it really pushes guys to really do everything they can to be the best player they can be.

 

Instead of giving out 125 cards every year, we cut it down to 100. And if we cut down the Korn Ferry cards from 50 to 30, you make the fields 120. Now you're getting the better players week in and week out. Doing that takes care of any other tour that comes along to compete against the PGA Tour or the European Tour.”

 

Thank you for posting the actual quotes! Read properly, Billy Ho’s comments make perfect sense. Asking about the potential threat of other world leagues, his response was that to make the Tour more attractive to fans and sponsors was to make it more competitive. Perfectly sensible idea. The Tour will never do it, they have to look out for the 156th best player as much as they look out for the 1st but the suggestion that Billy makes is perfectly logical. 

[tacklingdummy]

Very interesting take from Horschel. To me, it seems like the talent on PGA and Korn Ferry tours is really deep and wouldn't think too many are coasting. Seems more like a dog eat dog competitive environment where every player is doing what they can to get on tour and stay on tour.  But what do I know, he is the PGA tour insider. I'd like to hear more from other PGA players on his comments. 

[golfandfishing]

Making the fields and tour membership smaller reduces competition. This just makes it easier for the already exempt players to coast, they are in the field and have to beat fewer players to make cuts and/or win. 
 

I would love the idea of reducing the exempt cards if it meant more spots to Monday qualifiers and rewarding guys who are not exempt for their made cuts or higher finishes. But this isn’t what Horschell has in mind, he wants the current crop of top players protected and basically given a longer life span with less risk for turnover. Fewer players means less competitive tournaments. 

[Blonde Line Lizard]

I think there are a lot of players out there who really don't care about winning as much as going low enough in a tournament so they can get a decent paycheck because there is so much money out there with no real incentive to win.  Maybe that is what B.H. is getting at.

 

 

[bscinstnct]

5 hours ago, MattyO1984 said:

 

Thank you for posting the actual quotes! Read properly, Billy Ho’s comments make perfect sense. Asking about the potential threat of other world leagues, his response was that to make the Tour more attractive to fans and sponsors was to make it more competitive. Perfectly sensible idea. The Tour will never do it, they have to look out for the 156th best player as much as they look out for the 1st but the suggestion that Billy makes is perfectly logical. 

 

But how will paying guys who finish 20th-40th make the game more competitive or appealing to the fans?

 

Youd just have guys like BHo who basically never win making even more money for “losing”

 

And imagine if Rickie had made 100MM by now by always coming in 4th?

 

Golfwrx be like, “what up with that!”

 

If anything I see BHos comments as, perhaps subconsciously, self serving.

 

Plus, look at this comment he makes,

 

“Are you doing everything you can to be the best player you can?’ If you aren't, we shouldn't just be giving you handouts”

 

The elite guys could say the same thing about him. 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2021 by bscinstnct

[Fairway14]

21 minutes ago, Blonde Line Lizard said:

I think there are a lot of players out there who really don't care about winning as much as going low enough in a tournament so they can get a decent paycheck because there is so much money out there with no real incentive to win.  Maybe that is what B.H. is getting at.

 

 

 

Yes, and Jack Nicklaus has said the same thing. Specifically, when Nicklaus came up he felt he actually needed to win tournaments to make enough money to finally support his growing family. 

[smashdn]

I check the actual payouts most weeks on Monday.  Guy who wins rakes.  Guy who is T29 at Houston Open is around 50k.  I can see his point there.  I also get that the player is not taking home all that money either.

 

However, making it even more top heavy just means that you can do (what I think Tiger commented on at one time) and catch lightning in a bottle one week and win and then you are pretty well set for a few years due to exemptions.  At that point, I am not saying you can coast, but if you make some cuts, finish top 20 a few times, even in weaker field events, you can then make a good living.  Even more pronounced if you win a major.  Win on tour and you are exempt into the majors as well correct? 

 

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2021/11/14/pga-tour-2021-houston-open-prize-money/

T15 is 125k.  Alex Smalley, Hank Lebioda and Vincent Whaley are not exactly household names but they cashed nice checks.

 

The Players is no joke with their payout. > https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2021/03/14/pga-tour-players-championship-prize-money/

 

 

^All that to say, I am not sure how you shift payouts to make it so guys will seek to win more.  Make it top heavy and once you win one you are pretty well set.  Make the payout more evenly distributed down through the leaderboard and guys can top 25 themselves all year and make millions through (relative) mediocrity.

 

Point being, if you want guys to want to do what it takes to win, you have to have guys that want to win for the sake of winning.  Maybe even, to steal a phrase from Billy Bean in Moneyball, hate losing more than they like winning.

[Abh159]

I never cared much for Billy or his thoughts. I'm not sure where he is coming from on this either. I mean it's a fairly bold statement for a guy that has averaged < 0.5 PGA Tour wins per season during his career as a professional. Dude hasn't even had a top 10 in a major since 2013. As someone else stated... If they reduced the fields then he would be one of the guys on the outside looking in. 

 

A far as I'm concerned he can go hang out on the European Tour (or whatever it's called now). Seems to be where he likes to spend a lot of his time anyway...

[kasting333]

12 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Roger Sloan (who caught a 10 day hot streak late in the season so folks other than his mom knew who he was - figuratively, my Canadian friends) missed 10 cuts, 10 cuts, and made over $1m. And good for him. But Billy has a point. 14 millionaires already and barely into the season.

And he made 17 cuts. This is professional sports. $1M is peanuts for an entire season

[bobfoster]

18 minutes ago, kasting333 said:

And he made 17 cuts. This is professional sports. $1M is peanuts for an entire season

 Spot on. Add up all the costs ... the (not insignificant) taxes, the flights and hotel rooms, the coach, the caddy, and all the other ancillary costs that go along with being on the pro tour. Net profit? My accountant or attorney probably took home more than this guy.

[kasting333]

2 minutes ago, bobfoster said:

 Spot on. Add up all the costs ... the (not insignificant) taxes, the flights and hotel rooms, the coach, the caddy, and all the other ancillary costs that go along with being on the pro tour. Net profit? My accountant or attorney probably took home more than this guy.

Roger Sloan finished 96th on the FedEx and made $1,107,623

 

MLB 96th paid: Wade Miley- Cubs $10,000,000 

 

NFL 96th paid: Darius Slay- Eagles $14,050,000

 

Granted both are bigger sports, but neither are household names that get people to watch and make 10x (without the expenses of a tour pro).
 

Let’s stop pretending $1M is a ridiculous amount of money and these guys aren’t worth it. 

[Soloman1]

100 exempt players, 4 sponsor invites and 40 open spots every week to Monday qualifiers.

 

Great scoring comes in hot streaks for players. Give them the chance to play when they're hot.

[Itsjustagame]

How many golfers around the world really have a chance to make $1,000,000/year?

200? 300? Even if it's 500 the best 500 in many professions even outside of sports make that much and probably more.

 

Edited November 17, 2021 by Itsjustagame

[golfortennis]

So let's see here.  Guys need to play to win.  But winning should not get you things like long term exemptions, cause a guy might "coast."  Do I have that right?

 

Good grief.  I would love to know how many people who are complaining about guys "coasting" could even name said coasters.  

 

Let's not forget why the money is there:  either people are watching in large enough numbers, or corporations find the sponsorship beneficial to their bottom lines.  Or a combination of both.  Regardless, if there wasn't an interest, the money wouldn't be there.  Given how much money is there, seems like the interest is pretty high.

 

Never understood why people seem to think, given all the money coming into the sports, that the athletes shouldn't be the ones reaping the rewards.  They are the product after all.  

 

I cannot understand why Horschel would push this agenda.  He seems like the perfect example of the problem he claims exists.  More money means more players, which means a better product.  That's what makes it competitive.  Closing shop does not.

[airjammer]

If you make it too top heavy you could potentially eliminate a lot of guys that are willing to take the chance and try to play professional golf.

 

That’s the way it was back in the earlier days of golf (hogan/snead) and all we do is claim that strength of fields were lacking🤷🏼‍♂️  So potentially you get a few great players and a bunch of well heeled players that can afford to keep

playing even if they aren’t winning. 

 

I personally think it’s pretty well balanced now due to endorsement money that is available today compared to previous time frames and how long your career can be. Hell Langer is still raking it in still in his 60’s. 
 

 

[Roody]

I think if the PGA ends up doing what BillyHo is suggesting, you're gonna see a lot of guys jump ship for that other tour run by that Shark guy. 

[smashdn]

53 minutes ago, kasting333 said:

Let’s stop pretending $1M is a ridiculous amount of money and these guys aren’t worth it. 

 

Worth and incentive are two different discussions.  I read Horschel's comments to mean the money is not incentivizing guys to work harder to win, not that they were not worth what they were taking home.  Two different things.