Reduce the fields in golf tournaments?

[DFS PFD]

31 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Without the exemptions you won't have sponsors......It's their right for putting up the money $$$ IMO

 

Sponsors reward loyalty to their brand.

I don't care about sponsors, I care about the golf. Sponsors could adjust accordingly, trust me, they make sure they get theirs no matter what. These billion dollar companies will continue to invest in golf as a place to bury charitable/deductions every year. Like with everything else in life, players, coaches, sponsors, etc will adapt and survive. 

[Pepperturbo]

2 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Well, the PGATOUR works for the players. Once you get your card and become a member it's the tours job to keep players on tour. If you notice there's a lot of tiers and status on the tour.....there's 125-150, 150-200, sponsor exemptions, money list exemptions, one tine this, one time that, winner exemptions for the current year and the next two years for a regular event, five years exempt fof a major....Q-school, etc.....The tour is design to keep it's members on tour......as it should be. they're not slackers, they're card carrying members. IMO

It's NOT the tours job to keep players on the tour...  Can't successfully manage 1099 people by capitulating to demand.  You're talking as if players are employees of the Tour, yet Pro golfers are still 1099 status.  The Tour can only set standards that players must meet to maintain their card, it's up to the player to live up to those standards or fall back in stack ranking.

 

Fall back far enough, the player hides, yet still earn plenty of money.  It's for that reason I say cut numbers should be limited even more than then current.  Providing tiers is good, except they are NOT in place for status quo performance.

 

The word slacker is NOT a word I would use, that's your word.  When someone doesn't perform to the best of their ability in ANY job, it most cases, they've reached the height of their own incompetence, maybe per tier standards.  When that happens they are not entitled to stay on the tour and take a space from someone that really wants to progress. I think we beat that dead horse... you have a good day.  I am off to the gym.

[Titleist99]

2 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

It's NOT the tours job to keep players on the tour...  Can't successfully manage 1099 people by capitulating to demand.  You're talking as if players are employees of the Tour, yet Pro golfers are still 1099 status.  The Tour can only set standards that players must meet to maintain their card, it's up to the player to live up to those standards or fall back in stack ranking.

 

Fall back far enough, the player hides, yet still earn plenty of money.  It's for that reason I say cut numbers should be limited even more than then current.  Providing tiers is good, except they are NOT in place for status quo performance.

 

The word slacker is NOT a word I would use, that's your word.  When someone doesn't perform to the best of their ability in ANY job, it most cases, they've reached the height of their own incompetence, maybe per tier standards.  When that happens they are not entitled to stay on the tour and take a space from someone that really wants to progress. I think we beat that dead horse... you have a good day.  I am off to the gym.

Just saying that the Tour has a Player advisory committee and they help form the rules. Any problem with players staying too long, take it up with the players.......

[Pepperturbo]

16 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Of course you're right.....but keep in mind that there are people who have just as impressive resume as yours but are to modest to assume they hold all the answers and their opinion is greater than anyone else. Perhaps we can agree on that...

LOL - No we can't agree on that, it's a silly argument.  I state what I know from my forty years of professional HR research experience.  You discount it, and state what you believe based on bias assumption.  So we disagree.  Who's more right or wrong depends on who reads these post and where they apply credibility.  Does it matter, not to me.  We're not writing constitutional law here.  However, to make your argument, you've presented an imaginary person with comparable credentials, only that person for what ever the reason, won't contribute LOL 

 

LOL  I am reminded of my granddaughter's stay last week.  The next morning she was telling me about an imaginary monster from the night before.  He didn't say anything cause he was modest, but he was nice.

[miamistomp]

5 hours ago, tw_focus said:

I think there is room for more events with smaller / cultivated fields and more variety events (not just stroke play). If you look at WWE, the guys getting the most attention aren't necessarily the ones who are the best wrestlers, they are the ones with the best charisma, the mic skills, the biggest fan following. So why can't TW pair up with Paige Spirnac for an event or two, I guarantee the ratings will be higher than watching two no-name 50 rank golfers. It's good for the business and good for the game.

 Anybody over 12 still watch wrestling ??

 

[Titleist99]

1 hour ago, Pepperturbo said:

It's NOT the tours job to keep players on the tour...  Can't successfully manage 1099 people by capitulating to demand.  You're talking as if players are employees of the Tour, yet Pro golfers are still 1099 status.  The Tour can only set standards that players must meet to maintain their card, it's up to the player to live up to those standards or fall back in stack ranking.

 

Fall back far enough, the player hides, yet still earn plenty of money.  It's for that reason I say cut numbers should be limited even more than then current.  Providing tiers is good, except they are NOT in place for status quo performance.

 

The word slacker is NOT a word I would use, that's your word.  When someone doesn't perform to the best of their ability in ANY job, it most cases, they've reached the height of their own incompetence, maybe per tier standards.  When that happens they are not entitled to stay on the tour and take a space from someone that really wants to progress. I think we beat that dead horse... you have a good day.  I am off to the gym.

Never once did I say players were employees of the tour. In fact my position was quite the opposite. The tour works for the players.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Titleist99

[golfortennis]

3 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

Of course you're right.....but keep in mind that there are people who have just as impressive resume as yours but are to modest to assume they hold all the answers and their opinion is greater than anyone else. Perhaps we can agree on that...

 

You need to appreciate the fact a CEO is willing to share his perspective and experience with us plebes.  

 

 

[smashdn]

16 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

The tour works for the players.

 

 

Parents "work" for their children.  What is in the best interest of the child may not be what the child wants.   The Tour has to think long game and for all the players.  The individual player has to protect them self and them self alone.  (<That might be an incorrect form of themselves or the wrong tense but I want it to be very singular.)

[bscinstnct]

18 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

It's NOT the tours job to keep players on the tour...  Can't successfully manage 1099 people by capitulating to demand.  You're talking as if players are employees of the Tour, yet Pro golfers are still 1099 status.  The Tour can only set standards that players must meet to maintain their card, it's up to the player to live up to those standards or fall back in stack ranking.

 

Fall back far enough, the player hides, yet still earn plenty of money.  It's for that reason I say cut numbers should be limited even more than then current.  Providing tiers is good, except they are NOT in place for status quo performance.

 

The word slacker is NOT a word I would use, that's your word.  When someone doesn't perform to the best of their ability in ANY job, it most cases, they've reached the height of their own incompetence, maybe per tier standards.  When that happens they are not entitled to stay on the tour and take a space from someone that really wants to progress. I think we beat that dead horse... you have a good day.  I am off to the gym.

 

You got Chucky Three Sticks who has made $40MM. He makes cuts. And he makes them comfortably, lots of top 25s. 
 

For him, for whatever reason, that’s where he tops out. You can’t boot him off tour for that. He’s making his numbers and shooting the same score that week as Tiger Woods who had a “bad week”

 

If you lower the cut and give more to the guys who finish higher, you’ll end up with guys like Rickie, Finau or Horshal making even more money for never winning. Or even the guys like Howell would make even more.

 

Same problem. 
 

The only way to get the effect you’re looking for is

 

Winner take all!

 

Then you’ll get some Hunger Games action out there!

 

 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by bscinstnct

[Titleist99]

41 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

You got Chucky Three Sticks who has made $40MM. He makes cuts. And he makes them comfortably, lots of top 25s. 
 

For him, for whatever reason, that’s where he tops out. You can’t boot him off tour for that. He’s making his numbers and shooting the same score that week as Tiger Woods who had a “bad week”

 

If you lower the cut and give more to the guys who finish higher, you’ll end up with guys like Rickie, Finau or Horshal making even more money for never winning. Or even the guys like Howell would make even more.

 

Same problem. 
 

The only way to get the effect you’re looking for is

 

Winner take all!

 

Then you’ll get some Hunger Games action out there!

 

 

 

 

According to some Chucky three sticks is being rewarded for mediocracy. The NFL has an unwritten rule and that is to never discuss money other player manage to some how get......Pro golfers need to do the same and stop eating their young LOL!.....there's more than enough for everybody. Besides, there's not that big a difference between the #1 player and the guy that's #125th player to keep his card......right now Chesson Hadley, who had to make a hole in one to keep his card but is currently 12th on the leader board. Go figure.

[bobfoster]

20 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

You may see it that way, and that's fine.  However, for the last 40yrs I built a North American company that assess motivational behavior across multiple professions.  Thankfully, there's a helluva lot of notable companies and executives that value my 'opinions.'  Opinions are different from assumptions, as the latter is bias, the former is a measure from experience. 

Respectfully, I'm also a hard core capitalist. Started my current company with my partner on his back porch, at first just the two of us. Built it from scratch. Its now in its 20th year. Have successfully navigated it through market crashes and the pandemic (has been a challenging couple of years to run something, to say the least). Several hundred employees. We do operations and technology consulting in the financial services and retirement industries. A brutally competitive world. (Prior to this company, I was a managing director at Merrill Lynch, had direct reports in a dozen countries.) I am pretty good at management.

 

So I also know a wee bit about incentives and motivation - and have simply come to a conclusion different than yours. Not saying I'm right and you're wrong, just that it is fully possible for knowledgeable people to come to different, but equally valid conclusions. 

 

So far as motivation, to be immodest (heehee), my firm is oddly similar to the PGA Tour. We do extremely specialized work, and there is virtually no room for error (Messing up could result in, for instance, several million people not getting their monthly retirement check.) I only hire elites, that are some of the absolute best in their profession. Many well known in their industry. I pay very well, give my people (and their families) far more benefits than the law requires (health, dental, vision, STD, LTD, 401k, etc.). My retention rate (if you're an HR guy) is way above the industry norm. Virtually no one leaves. 

 

When it comes to incentives, we do not do "team building", or endless PPTs about "mission". Everything reduces to compensation. We built a commission plan that rewards anyone that adds to our bottom line. (If even my secretary overhears a conversation at a party, sends the pain point she heard to sales, or a programmer on billing overhears a conversation around the - now virtual - watercooler, and new business ultimately results from it, they get a piece of that income.) Everyone (no matter what their role) has a vested interest in the company surviving and thriving. 

 

But one of the characteristics of those that hit the elite level (in pretty much any realm), is that they are deeply into what they do. They obviously want to maximize their compensation, but my folks (for instance) also get a flat out huge (if quiet) buzz out of making a mainframe purr, or wrestling a misbehaving cloud app to the mat. The Peter Principle (good grief, what a flash from the past ... ) you mentioned simply does not apply to them (in my experience).

 

I guess that's my view of the PGA guys. You've been playing golf probably as long as I have, and have undoubtedly been to PGA tournaments, and these guys really are the elite. I'm a bit more than just a weekender, but what I call my golf game isn't even in the same universe as what these people do. There are around 25 million golfers in the US. Of those, maybe a thousand ever actually make even a remotely decent living off of playing the game. Maybe 100 make a good or great living. The air up there is incredibly rarified. 

 

I understand the mentality of people that operate at high levels from my experience managing them (as you draw on your experience). And it is simply inconceivable to me that someone with the attitude and insane amount of work it takes to actually get a PGA Tour card would finally make the Tour, and then decide to just "coast". That's just not how these people are built. 

 

My $0.02

Edited November 19, 2021 by bobfoster

[smashdn]

8 minutes ago, bobfoster said:

And it is simply inconceivable to me that someone with the attitude and insane amount of work it takes to actually get a PGA Tour card would finally make the Tour, and then decide to just "coast". That's just not how these people are built. 

 

My $0.02

 

So what would you attribute Billy Horschel's observation (an observation he says is also one noticed by others) of his own field to?  Why would he go out on this shaky limb with such a "hot take" when it was largely unprovoked?

 

The compensation structure is different but it is pretty well accepted that there are NFL players who "relax" after getting a big contract.  Those contracts are not guaranteed (though often a portion is now).

[Titleist99]

13 minutes ago, bobfoster said:

Respectfully, I'm also a hard core capitalist. Started my current company with my partner on his back porch, at first just the two of us. Built it from scratch. Its now in its 20th year. Have successfully navigated it through market crashes and the pandemic (has been a challenging couple of years to run something, to say the least). Several hundred employees. We do operations and technology consulting in the financial services and retirement industries. A brutally competitive world. (Prior to this company, I was a managing director at Merrill Lynch, had direct reports in a dozen countries.) I am pretty good at management.

 

So I also know a wee bit about incentives and motivation - and have simply come to a conclusion different than yours. Not saying I'm right and you're wrong, just that it is fully possible for knowledgeable people to come to different, but equally valid conclusions. 

 

So far as motivation, to be immodest (heehee), my firm is oddly similar to the PGA Tour. We do extremely specialized work, and there is virtually no room for error (Messing up could result in, for instance, several million people not getting their monthly retirement check.) I only hire elites, that are some of the absolute best in their profession. Many well known in their industry. I pay very well, give my people (and their families) far more benefits than the law requires (health, dental, vision, STD, LTD, 401k, etc.). My retention rate (if you're an HR guy) is way above the industry norm. Virtually no one leaves. 

 

When it comes to incentives, we do not do "team building", or endless PPTs about "mission". Everything reduces to compensation. We built a commission plan that rewards anyone that adds to our bottom line. (If even my secretary overhears a conversation at a party, sends the pain point she heard to sales, or a programmer on billing overhears a conversation around the - now virtual - watercooler, and new business ultimately results from it, they get a piece of that income.) Everyone (no matter what their role) has a vested interest in the company surviving and thriving. 

 

But one of the characteristics of those that hit the elite level (in pretty much any realm), is that they are deeply into what they do. They obviously want to maximize their compensation, but my folks (for instance) also get a flat out huge (if quiet) buzz out of making a mainframe purr, or wrestling a misbehaving cloud app to the mat. The Peter Principle (good grief, what a flash from the past ... ) you mentioned simply does not apply to them (in my experience).

 

I guess that's my view of the PGA guys. You've been playing golf probably as long as I have, and have undoubtedly been been to PGA tournaments, and these guys really are the elite. What I call my golf game isn't even in the same universe as what these people do. There are around 25 million golfers in the US. Of those, maybe a thousand ever actually make even a remotely decent living off of playing the game. Maybe 100 make a good or great living. The air up there is incredibly rarified. 

 

I understand the mentality of people that operate at high levels from my experience managing them (as you draw on your experience). And it is simply inconceivable to me that someone with the attitude and insane amount of work it takes to actually get a PGA Tour card would finally make the Tour, and then decide to just "coast". That's just not how these people are built. 

 

My $0.02

Well said, Some seem to think that their experience is the only one that count.

 

" I understand the mentality of people that operate at high levels from my experience managing them (as you draw on your experience). And it is simply inconceivable to me that someone with the attitude and insane amount of work it takes to actually get a PGA Tour card would finally make the Tour, and then decide to just "coast". That's just not how these people are built."

 

To get to the highest level at anything (especially golf) you must have a certain work ethic and slacking/ coasting isn't in their vocabulary. 

 

In my non-CEO Opinion. When you get to the highest level which is the PGATOR the work just beginning.......

[bobfoster]

5 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

So what would you attribute Billy Horschel's observation (an observation he says is also one noticed by others) of his own field to?  Why would he go out on this shaky limb with such a "hot take" when it was largely unprovoked?

 

The compensation structure is different but it is pretty well accepted that there are NFL players who "relax" after getting a big contract.  Those contracts are not guaranteed (though often a portion is now).

I think (though I don't know) Horschel is possibly talking about himself and projecting a wee bit. And we have to take his word that others agree with him. Maybe there are a handful of people that coast (there are always outliers to the norm), but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of the tour is continually trying to get better, continually chasing the next chance for a win. 

 

And the NFL doesn't really compare - the compensation structure is completely different. You are an employee, not a 1099. You sign a contract - often a multi-year contract. You get your monthly paycheck regardless of whether you sit on the bench, or have a really bad game. On the PGA Tour, you miss the cut, and you get nothing. You have to work almost relentlessly just to make a living, or even keep your card.

[bscinstnct]

33 minutes ago, bobfoster said:

Respectfully, I'm also a hard core capitalist. Started my current company with my partner on his back porch, at first just the two of us. Built it from scratch. Its now in its 20th year. Have successfully navigated it through market crashes and the pandemic (has been a challenging couple of years to run something, to say the least). Several hundred employees. We do operations and technology consulting in the financial services and retirement industries. A brutally competitive world. (Prior to this company, I was a managing director at Merrill Lynch, had direct reports in a dozen countries.) I am pretty good at management.

 

So I also know a wee bit about incentives and motivation - and have simply come to a conclusion different than yours. Not saying I'm right and you're wrong, just that it is fully possible for knowledgeable people to come to different, but equally valid conclusions. 

 

So far as motivation, to be immodest (heehee), my firm is oddly similar to the PGA Tour. We do extremely specialized work, and there is virtually no room for error (Messing up could result in, for instance, several million people not getting their monthly retirement check.) I only hire elites, that are some of the absolute best in their profession. Many well known in their industry. I pay very well, give my people (and their families) far more benefits than the law requires (health, dental, vision, STD, LTD, 401k, etc.). My retention rate (if you're an HR guy) is way above the industry norm. Virtually no one leaves. 

 

When it comes to incentives, we do not do "team building", or endless PPTs about "mission". Everything reduces to compensation. We built a commission plan that rewards anyone that adds to our bottom line. (If even my secretary overhears a conversation at a party, sends the pain point she heard to sales, or a programmer on billing overhears a conversation around the - now virtual - watercooler, and new business ultimately results from it, they get a piece of that income.) Everyone (no matter what their role) has a vested interest in the company surviving and thriving. 

 

But one of the characteristics of those that hit the elite level (in pretty much any realm), is that they are deeply into what they do. They obviously want to maximize their compensation, but my folks (for instance) also get a flat out huge (if quiet) buzz out of making a mainframe purr, or wrestling a misbehaving cloud app to the mat. The Peter Principle (good grief, what a flash from the past ... ) you mentioned simply does not apply to them (in my experience).

 

I guess that's my view of the PGA guys. You've been playing golf probably as long as I have, and have undoubtedly been to PGA tournaments, and these guys really are the elite. I'm a bit more than just a weekender, but what I call my golf game isn't even in the same universe as what these people do. There are around 25 million golfers in the US. Of those, maybe a thousand ever actually make even a remotely decent living off of playing the game. Maybe 100 make a good or great living. The air up there is incredibly rarified. 

 

I understand the mentality of people that operate at high levels from my experience managing them (as you draw on your experience). And it is simply inconceivable to me that someone with the attitude and insane amount of work it takes to actually get a PGA Tour card would finally make the Tour, and then decide to just "coast". That's just not how these people are built. 

 

My $0.02

 

Bob got like 300 guys on billing yo! 😃

 

Nice.

 

And I agree on your sentiments in the last paragraph for the most part.

 

To get to the tour, all these guys had to be a viscous big dog at some point and that is always somewhere in there. 

 

But, as I’m sure you’ve seen in working with high bar talent, guys do coast. 
 

But, in business or sports, it doesn’t matter if you’re punching above your weight or you’re crazy talented and on cruise control, you either make your number, miss it, or crush it. 
 

 

[bobfoster]

6 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Bob got like 300 guys on billing yo! 😃

 

Nice.

 

And I agree on your sentiments in the last paragraph for the most part.

 

To get to the tour, all these guys had to be a viscous big dog at some point and that is always somewhere in there. 

 

But, as I’m sure you’ve seen in working with high bar talent, guys do coast. 
 

But, in business or sports, it doesn’t matter if you’re punching above your weight or you’re crazy talented and on cruise control, you either make your number, miss it, or crush it. 
 

 

 

Wasn't trying to brag, just establishing the cred needed to answer Pepperturbo ... 😎

 

In my business (and I suspect on the PGA Tour), it isn't really possible to coast. The work is too exacting. The more common thing with high achievers, in my experience, is that one will occasionally reach the point of simply burning out. It is weird (and sad) to see, and will often happen pretty quickly. Its like they hit a point and they just can't take the pressure anymore, can't maintain the high attention to detail, or continual study that it takes. It like the life and energy just drains out of them. Not really uncommon for the same thing to happen now and then to guys on the PGA Tour. They just kind of disappear.

[Soloman1]

 

[Pepperturbo]

3 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

You can’t boot him off tour for that. He’s making his numbers and shooting the same score that week as Tiger Woods who had a “bad week”

I didn't say boot anyone off.  I said make the cut numbers fewer, and let's see who the alleged professionals really are.

Edited November 19, 2021 by Pepperturbo

[Pepperturbo]

2 hours ago, bobfoster said:

Not saying I'm right and you're wrong, just that it is fully possible for knowledgeable people to come to different, but equally valid conclusions. 

We have different perceptions based on experience.  I agree 100% with the above.

 

2 hours ago, bobfoster said:

And it is simply inconceivable to me that someone with the attitude and insane amount of work it takes to actually get a PGA Tour card would finally make the Tour, and then decide to just "coast". That's just not how these people are built. 

 

Here's where we disagree.  Aside from building multiple businesses, as I said, I've studied human behavior as a profession for 40yrs.  It's lead me to a conclusion that many don't want to hear, especially in their prime; while others see signs, don't personalize, and are willing to listen.

 

Back in "1969" The Peter Principle (https://tinyurl.com/y9sexo79) was coined by Laurence J Peter.  He wrote a book on the subject.  His findings held a great deal of value to all levels of Human Resources and executive leadership.  Why?  It proved valid.  People reach the height of their own incompetence or complacency, or using your word, coast. 

 

I include myself in the category of complacency, as I have reached a level that is satisfying.  I don't want to start another business, don't desire, at what ever the cost, to build the company larger than N.A., and don't need any more money.  I don't need to reach scratch golfer.  All I want from golf now is to card my age.  One of my buddy's built his Wholesale/Distb company to 800 employees.  A number of us were talking over single malts and cigars about our futures.  He surprised us by saying he's reach his comfort zone.  He had an offer to sell out, and took it.  Another friend owned 4 golf courses and 15 car dealerships.  He decided he doesn't need anymore, he's selling out. 

 

What I am talking about is at different ages, everyone reaches a point of comfort and or incompetence, including professional golfers and other pro athletes.  Most people find comfort and never earn more that $150k a year, doing some job, while others like you and me, some of my friends kept driving on to find various degrees of satisfaction.  It depends on the person.  Let me finish this with a related example.  A relative of mine went from HS to college, quit then went to play on the PGA Tour, this was back in the 50s & 60s.  After a number of years of liveable earnings, saw that he wasn't going to get to Nicklaus or Palmer's level, so eventually he left the tour.  He's the perfect example of what I have been talking about.  He was happy making the tour and played for a number of years, but never in the limelight.  He's now 85yrs old, and still plays golf once to twice a week using his old blades. 

 

Clearly, some people don't like this fact of life, so I will leave the subject here.  You have a good day and good luck with your biz.

Edited November 19, 2021 by Pepperturbo

[smashdn]

3 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

But, as I’m sure you’ve seen in working with high bar talent, guys do coast. 
 

But, in business or sports, it doesn’t matter if you’re punching above your weight or you’re crazy talented and on cruise control, you either make your number, miss it, or crush it. 

 

Of course they coast.  That isn't a particular flattering word for it and people bristle at the concept but it happens.  You reach a point of stasis where you are comfortable.  You reach a point where the effort you desire to expend nets you results you are satisfied with.  Or you get to a point where you are no longer willing to sacrifice to get that next little bit better, richer, stronger, whatever.

 

Work-life balance comes into play at some point as well as diminishing returns.  

 

 

2 hours ago, bobfoster said:

In my business (and I suspect on the PGA Tour), it isn't really possible to coast. The work is too exacting. The more common thing with high achievers, in my experience, is that one will occasionally reach the point of simply burning out. It is weird (and sad) to see, and will often happen pretty quickly. Its like they hit a point and they just can't take the pressure anymore, can't maintain the high attention to detail, or continual study that it takes. It like the life and energy just drains out of them. Not really uncommon for the same thing to happen now and then to guys on the PGA Tour. They just kind of disappear.

 

You don't think that on the PGA Tour there were not times where players went through stretches where they didn't mentally and physically prepare or work as hard and still garnered results they were perfectly happy with?  Guy goes in sick or last minute into the field and doesn't play practice rounds but finishes pretty decent.  You don't think they look at that practically and, at least to themselves, say, "that turned out pretty good no harder than I worked at it"?

 

Why do guys "ramp up" or prepare differently heading into majors?  Why aren't they at that level for the Greater Greensboro Open?

 

You reach a point where the reward doesn't match the headache.  For different people it is different levels.  I can go chase a 150k (I get that is peanuts to some but in my field pretty good), multi-sight, vp level role with what I do but at this point in my life, and maybe never in my life, will the sacrifices I have to make, to make that happen, be worth getting to that role?  I can live my life how I want, with what I do now.  I really don't have much desire to climb the company ladder any farther.  I know that sort of causes HR people to cringe when I drop that on them in interviews and maybe it comes off as I am not as dedicated or committed to a higher level of excellence as they would expect, but I have little people at home I want to see other than at bedtime and I also don't want to be so mentally fatigued that I cannot have a conversation with and enjoy my wife's company in the evening.  I especially do not want to feel I have to be so devoted to my job I can't leave the cell phone unattended for the evening or weekend or when I go on vacation.

 

From the philosopher Notorious B.I.G., "Mo money, mo problems."  I can only put up with so many problems.  I only need so much money to maintain my lifestyle.

 

When you clean up the need for money (no debt, house paid off, self-insured, self-reliant, etc.) you become a dangerous person in the world.  You are no longer wedded to a job or career.  You gain independence.  Can't say I agree with his methods but, truthfully, the Unabomber (Theodore Kacynski) had some salient points regarding being enslaved by your possessions.

 

---

Full circle back to Billy Ho, if you are comfortable in your life, make the money you want (wherever you place in the tournament), with the effort you want to exert, you raise the question whether some people are "working hard enough."

 

Is Bryce Harper working hard enough?  Did he coast on his talent at some point?

Michael Jordan the first in the gym and last to leave?  Lebron?

 

 

[Titleist99]

Just give me the names of the guys that's 100-125 on the PGATOUR and 25-50 guys with KF cards that are non-motivated to get better..... that would justify reduced cards and reduced fields...... I kid.

Edited November 19, 2021 by Titleist99

[Shilgy]

On 11/18/2021 at 7:20 AM, smashdn said:

 

Literally, you are correct.  So is the NFL for that matter.

 

 

I run into this with some conservation orgs that I work with.  People get wrapped around the axle when the CEO and VPs of those orgs are making what they make.  But when you compare those positions and pay to comparable private sector positions and the pay they are commensurate if not at times lower for charitable orgs.  

 

So it doesn't surprise me in the least that the upper people in the Tour are making nice salaries.  If they did not they would understandably take their skills and talents to the market where they would get paid for them.

 

Can't tell you about the headquarters deal.  Might pay for itself in a few years or less depending upon what is going on at the old place.  If you can get more efficient with a new building and reduce headcount as a result it might pay for itself rather quickly.

 

 

"Make it at that level" refers to financially making it.  So to your first question, no, that is not why tour cards are played for.

 

Guys "content with cashing a check" is what Horschel was getting at.  Yes, he was saying the quality of play would be better by virtue of guys having to place higher in order to financially be able to do what they do.  It deludes the competition when so many places are paid as highly as they are.  You can squeak through on the cut line and gross 30k in some tournaments.  Are you going to be able to financially maintain being a PGA Tour golfer with all the trappings that are needed to keep you there doing that week in and week out?  No.  But if you jump up and place high a week or two in a season, maybe in an alternate field event or silly season event, you can cash a good check that floats you the rest of the year.  Horschel might actually be a good example of this.   His point was fewer spots opening up each year through cards would increase the demand for them and result in more battling for the limited spots.  Smaller fields with fewer pay out spots would concentrate the purse to the upper end incentivizing players to need to place higher.

 

I don't necessarily agree that what he is proposing would have the desired effect.  I contend that it would then become more pronounced where a win or high finish gives you too much financial stability to the point where you are taking weeks off or can, in their minds anyway, not practice as hard or work out as hard since they are, at that point, financially secure for a while.

 

Your last point is laughable.

Making “fewer spots available” each year is just another way of saying “protect the old guys that are getting passed by the young ‘uns”.  Spin it however you like Billy is trying to protect his spot on tour as he ages.

[Titleist99]

3 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Making “fewer spots available” each year is just another way of saying “protect the old guys that are getting passed by the young ‘uns”.  Spin it however you like Billy is trying to protect his spot on tour as he ages.

Next thing you know Billy will be saying that the Tour has to many tournaments because those slackers are playing the fall season and the vacationers can't get in the FedEx Cup playoffs......

 

I don't think that we have to worry about that though.......LOL!  IMO

[dbelles1]

On 11/18/2021 at 9:26 AM, Pepperturbo said:

If a tour player makes 500-800k he's living a damn good life

The break even for a tour player is about 500k, they pay their own travel, hotels, coaches, trainers, caddies, etc. And on the money list from last year that would be about 175. So if anything the tournaments need to be bigger (156) and the cut line higher (76) with more compensation.

[Soloman1]

Let’s not forget endorsements.

[Jc0]

They are the top players at their profession. I'm not sure why people think it's such a horrible thing that the 100th best golfer in the world can make millions. Plenty of "mediocre" talent make tons of money. The 100th best football player makes millions, the 100th best basketball player makes millions, the 100th best CEO makes millions, the 100th best lawyer makes millions. Everyone at the top their given profession makes a ton of money. To act like the don't deserve it is stupid. 

[bscinstnct]

32 minutes ago, Jc0 said:

They are the top players at their profession. I'm not sure why people think it's such a horrible thing that the 100th best golfer in the world can make millions. Plenty of "mediocre" talent make tons of money. The 100th best football player makes millions, the 100th best basketball player makes millions, the 100th best CEO makes millions, the 100th best lawyer makes millions. Everyone at the top their given profession makes a ton of money. To act like the don't deserve it is stupid. 

 

Right on target. 
 

If TW 1.0 played now with the purse sizes what they are 

 

Stevie Williams would be making more than BHo 

 

But, I guess he thinks, as long as his arbitrary line of what constitutes getting “handouts” doesn’t include himself (generally #40 with no majors), he thinks he can say dumb stuff about his peers ; )

[Hankshank]

Billy Ho comes from a blue collar family. Don’t forget that.

[bscinstnct]

6 hours ago, Hankshank said:

Billy Ho comes from a blue collar family. Don’t forget that.

 

Which means what?

 

He mistakenly uses his fish fork to eat his salad?

 

🤣

[Soloman1]

Insert Columbo voice: "Uhhh, let me ask you just one more thing before I go..."

 

Phil has probably made over $800 million from hitting a ball with a stick. I guess he's up to $50 million this year in endorsements.

If he was the top career earner in baseball or football, he would have made about half of what he has made so far in golf.

My question is, sir, where were you on the night Phil lost his perspective?