Driver shaft length vs smash and ballspeed.

[Cwebb]

1 hour ago, D0ch0l1d4y said:

Using Tiger as a model for anything might be a fool's errand. He's a freak of nature that really none of us can replicate.

 

Agree that it's slightly inside, but we don't know the shot shape or if the camera angle is a bit off.

 

 

 

 

 

It's not just him though.  Most of the best players through history have played their driver ball position very close to their arm pit.  His always looks slightly further back, because he uses a wider stance than most, with the inside of his feet set wider than his shoulders

[Ri_Redneck]

15 hours ago, bladehunter said:

I did.  And actually took a tiny divot.  Lol. Then Teed it to where the ball peeked above the crown slightly and is better , but yes. Absolutely feels as if it is slower.  The mini just feels fast. Everything about it feels fast.  
 

I think another variable is ball position.  I play it much farther back  , almost middle with the mini. And I hit it dead straight.  Driver is off my left heel

I've run into the same situation with some driver heads. I believe it is drag and I'll tell you why. I've played a ton of drivers in my life and one thing I noticed when driver heads started getting a lot bigger is it just felt like there's more wind resistance when I was swinging them. Even now, I can grab one of my persimmon drivers (43.5") and it swings "fast" so easy. I can take one of the larger and longer ones and it seems like it takes more effort to swing it the same speed. It seems like the same scenario with your driver and 300 mini, smaller head - easier to swing. Also, when I first got the Fly-Z+ with the big sliding weight groove on the bottom, I would swear I could hear the difference when swinging it. There was more "swoosh" than with drivers without the groove. I have since only played what I consider more aerodynamic heads that seem to slip through the air easier and it seems to make a difference for me. All anecdotal I know, but that's my perspective.

 

When trying different lengths, I have found that the combination of total weight and MOI make a pretty significant difference too. When I was building my long driver last year, I found I had to go with a lighter CB shaft to get the feel of the club right. Total weight was a little lower and MOI was higher than my regular 44.75" drivers when I got it feeling good though. Course, I was comparing 48" with 44.75"! I know MOI should be a little different with length, but I am not completely sure HOW MUCH it should change based on club length. Perhaps Howard can expand on that.

 

BT

Edited January 11, 2022 by Ri_Redneck

[bladehunter]

14 minutes ago, D0ch0l1d4y said:

 

If you are taking a divot with your 3w, you are leaving distance on the table. Not that it's a bad thing, you just manage your low point differently than others. 

 

Off the tee with a 3w, I'm slightly down AoA:

 

Driver I'm slightly up on average:

 

Plain as day - my ball speeds are higher with my 3 wood because my driver needs a lot of help. This data was from about a year ago so I know it's gotten better...but my 3w is still my go to.

See my edit above. But yea.  I don’t disagree with 1 or so up. I try to be 1 up or even. But I suspect I’m getting outside that window and making a glancing blow up.  Or something.  
 

my mini monitor at home doesn’t show club data except swing speed ( garmin g80). But it’s very accurate for what it does show as I’ve tested it along side my buddies trackman outside.  And lasered balls back to my tee at home. So I’m trying to work out a low point to reset. Or something.  
 

as for 3 wood. I don’t take a divot as in dirt.  But I’ll leave a burnt top on grass usually.  Like a rub.  I control the low point very well with everything. Except driver.  It’s an absolute pain in the butt. 
 

i have him bringing his trackman over tonight , so I’ll know for sure 

Edited January 11, 2022 by bladehunter

[amace04]

11 minutes ago, Cwebb said:

 

 

It's not just him though.  Most of the best players through history have played their driver ball position very close to their arm pit.  His always looks slightly further back, because he uses a wider stance than most, with the inside of his feet set wider than his shoulders

Rory, DJ, Wolff... all of them have it more centred than you'd think.  

 

 

Even Bryson isn't that far forward, and he has more of a Long drive setup than anybody else

 

 

[bladehunter]

4 minutes ago, Ri_Redneck said:

I've run into the same situation with some driver heads. I believe it is drag and I'll tell you why. I've played a ton of drivers in my life and one thing I noticed when driver heads started getting a lot bigger is it just felt like there's more wind resistance when I was swinging them. Even now, I can grab one of my persimmon drivers (43.5") and it swings "fast" so easy. I can take one of the larger and longer ones and it seems like it takes more effort to swing it the same speed. It seems like the same scenario with your driver and 300 mini, smaller head - easier to swing. Also, when I first got the Fly-Z+ with the big sliding weight groove on the bottom, I would swear I could hear the difference when swinging it. There was more "swoosh" than with drivers without the groove. I have since only played what I consider more aerodynamic heads that seem to slip through the air easier and it seems to make a difference for me. All anecdotal I know, but that's my perspective.

 

When trying different lengths, I have found that the combination of total weight and MOI make a pretty significant difference too. When I was building my long driver last year, I found I had to go with a lighter CB shaft to get the feel of the club right. Total weight was a little lower and MOI was higher than my regular 44.75" drivers when I got it feeling good though. Course, I was comparing 48" with 44.75"! I know MOI should be a little different with length, but I am not completely sure HOW MUCH it should change based on club length. Perhaps Howard can expand on that.

 

BT

Yes.  That’s exactly how I feel it. These big heads are all “ slow “. I mean just takes so much effort to move. I can’t get my head around it. I truly think it’s a lack of weight in the heads.  And yea. Some aero difference too.   I’ve had a few heads that I got heavy and felt fast.  But not many.  

[Cwebb]

10 minutes ago, amace04 said:

Rory, DJ, Wolff... all of them have it more centred than you'd think.  

 

 

Even Bryson isn't that far forward, and he has more of a Long drive setup than anybody else

 

 

 

Yes.  I prefer not to use the description of "centered" though.   Center of the body to me, would be down in line with the sternum.  The ball position for most of the best is really close to the arm pit

[baudi]

big heads feel like a balloon on a stick

[amace04]

7 minutes ago, Cwebb said:

 

Yes.  I prefer not to use the description of "centered" though.   Center of the body to me, would be down in line with the sternum.  The ball position for most of the best is really close to the arm pit

hence "more centered".

Lots and lots of people (myself included) think that to bomb a golf ball, you need it just off your lead heel.  while for some with slow speeds, that might be true, most pros have it well inside.  off the armpit is pretty consistent.

It's been something I've been trying to work on too.  I used to be teed up high right off my heel, and bringing it inside resulted in a nice 100 yard wedge flight.

[Ri_Redneck]

I see a lot of folks attempting to hit driver with the ball too far forward and then try to hold off release to square the face when it gets there. It's GOT to be robbing them of speed and efficiency. I have always played the ball around left armpit (righty), no more than 1" in front of 3w position. I like to feel like I don't reach peak speed until just after impact. I know that's actually impossible, but the feeling of TRYING to do that gives me the best results.

 

BT

[bladehunter]

On 1/11/2022 at 1:44 PM, Ri_Redneck said:

I see a lot of folks attempting to hit driver with the ball too far forward and then try to hold off release to square the face when it gets there. It's GOT to be robbing them of speed and efficiency. I have always played the ball around left armpit (righty), no more than 1" in front of 3w position. I like to feel like I don't reach peak speed until just after impact. I know that's actually impossible, but the feeling of TRYING to do that gives me the best results.

 

BT

 

On 1/11/2022 at 1:21 PM, Cwebb said:

 

Yes.  I prefer not to use the description of "centered" though.   Center of the body to me, would be down in line with the sternum.  The ball position for most of the best is really close to the arm pit

Thanks Guys. I’ve learned a few things here.  
 

i have got a pretty good handle on ball placement after borrowing the trackman time last night.  I’ve moved it back around 2-3 balls. 
 

 

And I have a couple shaft options drying up.  One will play 44.75 and one 45.  And have identified vertical-COG via Howard’s method ( thanks ) and will be adding weight to the head until I find the magical feel to get the impact location above Vcog consistently.  Hopefully will result in a proper reset with a better fit. 

[ChaosTheory]

On 1/11/2022 at 10:33 AM, D0ch0l1d4y said:

Using Tiger as a model for anything might be a fool's errand. He's a freak of nature that really none of us can replicate.

 

Agree that it's slightly inside, but we don't know the shot shape or if the camera angle is a bit off.

 

 

I have my ball position somewhere around the inside of my left heel (my camera angle is a bit off).

 

 

Try a little Moe Norman influence.  Address the driver with the hands and club head in the middle of your stance, four to six inches back of the ball.  That’s what I do.  To me the conventional (your) way biases the body to the left.

[bladehunter]

Down the rabbit hole I go.  Just checked Vcog per Howard’s method on the sim max2 , and a jbeam , and Adams launch lab head I have.   The sim max 2  is surprisingly heel side.  The other two pretty middle. 
 

 

i wonder @Howard_Jones     What will this location tend to produce if struck toward the toe ?  Does it mAtter  ? I’m just wondering if I need to line up vertical and horizontal strike points near this spot , or just the vertical line ? Also the Sim2 max seems to be high on the face compared to the others.   

[Howard_Jones]

2 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Down the rabbit hole I go.  Just checked Vcog per Howard’s method on the sim max2 , and a jbeam , and Adams launch lab head I have.   The sim max 2  is surprisingly heel side.  The other two pretty middle. 
 

 

i wonder @Howard_Jones     What will this location tend to produce if struck toward the toe ?  Does it mAtter  ? I’m just wondering if I need to line up vertical and horizontal strike points near this spot , or just the vertical line ? Also the Sim2 max seems to be high on the face compared to the others.   

As soon as we are toe side of COG, it will impact draw spin due to horizontal gear effects.
How much, depends on how far out, MOI value and actual face to path, so its lots of things at once.
If face angle at impact spot is open to path, it might equalize the horizontal gear effect from a toe side impact (push to the right if path is into out)

[Valtiel]

5 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Down the rabbit hole I go.  Just checked Vcog per Howard’s method on the sim max2 , and a jbeam , and Adams launch lab head I have.   The sim max 2  is surprisingly heel side.  The other two pretty middle. 
 

 

i wonder @Howard_Jones     What will this location tend to produce if struck toward the toe ?  Does it mAtter  ? I’m just wondering if I need to line up vertical and horizontal strike points near this spot , or just the vertical line ? Also the Sim2 max seems to be high on the face compared to the others.   

Not surprising at all on the SIM 2 Max given that the weight is more aggressively shifted towards the heel. The fade biased (toe side) CG of the OG SIM and relative neutral bias of the OG SIM Max were shifted to be fractionally fade biased on the SIM2 and a little draw biased on the SIM2 Max. 

Also interesting to see what we've long seen with older, deeper faced drivers and the CG being half or even a full groove above the actual center of the face. This is why I feel deep faces can be so self defeating because what good is all the real estate if a majority of it exists below the sweet spot where spin will kick up and speed will drop off. 

[bladehunter]

3 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Not surprising at all on the SIM 2 Max given that the weight is more aggressively shifted towards the heel. The fade biased (toe side) CG of the OG SIM and relative neutral bias of the OG SIM Max were shifted to be fractionally fade biased on the SIM2 and a little draw biased on the SIM2 Max. 

Also interesting to see what we've long seen with older, deeper faced drivers and the CG being half or even a full groove above the actual center of the face. This is why I feel deep faces can be so self defeating because what good is all the real estate if a majority of it exists below the sweet spot where spin will kick up and speed will drop off. 

So you’re saying draw biased for the heel side Vcog ?  That would actually suit me.  
 

as for the deep  face. That’s my concern. I have historically had the opposite problem.  I’ll miss higher on the face. Vs low.  So I’d prefer a lower Vcog .  You’re thinking about the additional room  on the bottom of the face. I’m thinking of it as taller on the top.   Take the sim 2 max. It looks to me like it will be very hard to get the strike above the Vcog without being too high. Theres just no room up there. 

Edited January 15, 2022 by bladehunter

[Andygolderson]

On 1/12/2022 at 2:44 AM, Ri_Redneck said:

I see a lot of folks attempting to hit driver with the ball too far forward and then try to hold off release to square the face when it gets there. 

I really liked this advice and took onboard, together with something else I read elsewhere about fixing a slice and also in relation to some of the other comments on ball position. Initially, I played out in the front, it worked for me, but inconcsistent. People often comment I don't follow through.

 

I recently tried 'middle to inside heel'. it just got worse. Having read more of what people are feeding back, I realised it's basically just low point control. I was looking into how I can change my angle of attack to be more upward and to be honest, no matter how hard I exxaggerate spine tilt, it doesn't give the results.

 

I'd tried 3W shaft, different weightin settings, different positions. to my opinion, if you change the length, you can't rely on the same low point compared with a longer club, a different imbalance of the head. The exact same feet position, ball position, distance from the ball cannot be the same for a different weighted or length of shaft. (Maybe much better players can do, I only speak from my observations).

There is no standard ball position, it depends on what suits your swing.

Even putting 3 different driver shafts into my 3 wood, the same 3 shafts into the driver, or different 3 wood shafts in each club head, every single one produces a different weight, feeling, swing weight and variable.

 

The Vcog discussion goes way over my head to be honest, however, I do think it comes back to low point. I managed to hit center face drives for 15-20 in a row, as opposed to 1 in 20. Here's what I did, you can take it or leave it if you like to try incorporate some things for better contact;

 

swingthoughts - "Narrow stance, ball in front, out the pocket, off the heel"

• ball way in front. outside line of your shoe aligned to the front of the ball.
• Line up off the hosel. I later fine tuned it to being "heel aligned"
• narrow stance. Similar to how people would consider to hit an 8 iron.
• play the club from your front pocket. The loft or shaft lean of your club will determine clubhead position when you're flat with the sole.
• I forcefully have a swing thought for left bicept inwards and touching your chest. the wrist rotates out to neutrally grab the club.

I never did anythign to change a regular swing. don't change your swing, just setup differently.

 

I started at driver and went down the bag applying the same swing and it still works for other clubs. I think it was when I read Greg Norman's tips (?) that you should always play the ball from the same position. Regardless, there are many others who have the same opinion and in general trying to remove variables and inconcsistencies can help.

I feel like playing too much with driver setup is also contributing to the same problem.

 

Sorry to get distracted, I really had to go back to your original post to try to make sure it's relevant.

 

I think you're still looking for better face contact to increase your efficiency, so I highligh my points since that's what I found for myself. It doesn't always need to be so technical 🙂

 

[Howard_Jones]

On 1/15/2022 at 1:00 AM, Valtiel said:

Not surprising at all on the SIM 2 Max given that the weight is more aggressively shifted towards the heel. The fade biased (toe side) CG of the OG SIM and relative neutral bias of the OG SIM Max were shifted to be fractionally fade biased on the SIM2 and a little draw biased on the SIM2 Max. 

Also interesting to see what we've long seen with older, deeper faced drivers and the CG being half or even a full groove above the actual center of the face. This is why I feel deep faces can be so self defeating because what good is all the real estate if a majority of it exists below the sweet spot where spin will kick up and speed will drop off. 

A deep face WOOD like Wishons Fairway driver might be a better choice than a driver for many players. Its face height is 39 mm, so its easy to find the right tee height to lower spin. (only a few mm of the ground.)

https://wishongolf.com/designs/designs-drivers/new-919fd/