Kingsley Club Sold to Escalante Golf

[BG5]

I have been lucky enough to play Kingsley Club a few times and its one of the best courses I have ever played.  Escalante Golf is in the process of buying it and I am told that many Kingsley members are upset about the sale.  I know a few members and have considered joining so it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

 

Here is a link the the new buyers portfolio.

https://escalantegolf.com/properties

[ND2005]

Interesting. 
 
I know Zach Peed/Dormie Network were in the mix for this purchase.

 

Don’t know if they backed off or got outbid or what 

 

Here in TX the members of GCOH and Shadow Hawk have been beyond disappointed in the ownership 

Edited January 18, 2022 by ND2005

[BG5]

I found this forum with upset members.....hopefully they dont water down Kingsley......its a special place

 

https://escalanteclubs.com/

[Phreddy]

I belong to an Escalante club.  On the whole I think their commitment to excellence is pretty good.  If my experience holds true, course conditioning and willingness to upgrade staff won't be an issue.  However, it becomes a club in name only.  It is a very mercantile relationship.  They will give you a good product, charge you full fare for the privilege and that is the extent of the relationship.  Yes, there will be a lot of goodwill rhetoric, but at the end of the day, they could care less what the members think.   One gets the impression that the club manager is essentially a mouth piece for the Dallas home office and has little latitude in policy decisions.

 

Phred

[BG5]

Thanks for posting Phred and for clarification about Escalante Club.  It your happy with how they treat members that says alot about them as a group as I have really enjoyed reading about your posts over the years.  As a person who is looking for a club soon all I care about is having great course conditions and decent pace of play.  As long as they can do that then I am a happy camper and based on your posts they do want to provide a good product

[Phreddy]

My home club in Milwaukee has been approached by a handful of groups over the last year interested in an outright purchase.  I think it speaks to the state of the game and level of participation that drives this business model.  I like my home club very much, but Escalante would never have an interest.  They look for more "premier" properties and/or full year properties.  I don't know what Escalante's policy is across the spectrum of properties, but at the club I belong to new members are now required to be Icon members.  An added tier of downstroke and monthly dues. But ,it allows for member access at all Escalante properties and a host of North American and European golf trips.  I will be playing Cabot Cliffs courtesy of one of their catered trips this summer.  If Pine Valley, Shinnecock, Augusta etal are the equivalent of flying on a private jet, Escalante would think of itself as flying first class.  An upgrade for sure and priced accordingly.

 

Phred

[BG5]

So Phred are you saying you pay a bit more in dues but have access to all their clubs plus your getting a free trip to Cabot Cliffs?  

[Phreddy]

3 minutes ago, BG5 said:

So Phred are you saying you pay a bit more in dues but have access to all their clubs plus your getting a free trip to Cabot Cliffs?  

Yes and no.  I am an Icon member which means I have access to all their properties.  I have kids all over the place and my wife and I like to travel (pre-COVID) so I've played several of them.  The trips are not free, but they are catered in the sense that tee times, dinner reservations, lodging, wine tastings...are all part of the package.  No different than if you booked a golf trip to Ireland through a commercial package except you may already know and play with some participants and look forward to seeing familiar faces from other trips/areas of the country.

[Chanceman]

Phred, do you think they will be as receptive to requests from visitors to play at Kingsley? I believe they have been quite amenable to that in the past.

[Phreddy]

8 hours ago, Chanceman said:

Phred, do you think they will be as receptive to requests from visitors to play at Kingsley? I believe they have been quite amenable to that in the past.

I don't know.  The Escalante club where I play only allows unaccompanied guests who have booked through the Ritz Carlton that is a few miles away.  And I believe unaccompanied guests are limited to afternoon tee times which are generally wide open.  I don't know if guest policy is set by the individual property or at a corporate level.  Escalante is loathe to turn down a dollar of incremental revenue and guest fees are pure profit.  How they balance that vs member play will be interesting.

 

Phred

[cassel191919]

This is a bummer, hopefully they don't change anything about this GEM. I have been able to play in the Peninsula Cup there the last few years and I love that course more every time I play it, hopefully that event continues.

[monty09]

19 hours ago, ND2005 said:

Interesting. 
 
I know Zach Peed/Dormie Network were in the mix for this purchase.

 

Don’t know if they backed off or got outbid or what 

 

Here in TX the members of GCOH and Shadow Hawk have been beyond disappointed in the ownership 

  I was a GCOH member and left once they bought.. agree with you 100%

[knickerbocker]

I was hoping one day to join Kingsley in retirement.  I thought the owner was really committed to the concept. This will certainly change the club and probably not for the better.  I hope I am wrong. 

[cassel191919]

3 hours ago, knickerbocker said:

I was hoping one day to join Kingsley in retirement.  I thought the owner was really committed to the concept. This will certainly change the club and probably not for the better.  I hope I am wrong. 

We are in the same boat, I've always wanted to join as I got closer to retirement. The laid back golf only vibe is what I love the most about that place and I just don't see it staying that way.

[Teddy Ruxbton]

Worse decision Ed Walker could have ever made. I’ve been a member for over 10 years. We used to be ranked as a top 15 course in the nation. Escalante has no money and will most certainly take this special place down several notches. Shame on you Ed. I have spoken to over a dozen legacy members that had the money to preserve our special club. Can anyone say revolt. Again, shame on you Ed. 

[knickerbocker]

12 hours ago, Teddy Ruxbton said:

Worse decision Ed Walker could have ever made. I’ve been a member for over 10 years. We used to be ranked as a top 15 course in the nation. Escalante has no money and will most certainly take this special place down several notches. Shame on you Ed. I have spoken to over a dozen legacy members that had the money to preserve our special club. Can anyone say revolt. Again, shame on you Ed. 

 

I had heard the club was doing well and had many members which was one of the reasons why they started limiting outside play. 

[BG5]

5 hours ago, knickerbocker said:

 

I had heard the club was doing well and had many members which was one of the reasons why they started limiting outside play. 

 

Do you have a rough estimate as to how many members Kingsley has?  You think its over 150?

[puttnforthe8]

On 1/21/2022 at 9:34 PM, Teddy Ruxbton said:

Worse decision Ed Walker could have ever made. I’ve been a member for over 10 years. We used to be ranked as a top 15 course in the nation. Escalante has no money and will most certainly take this special place down several notches. Shame on you Ed. I have spoken to over a dozen legacy members that had the money to preserve our special club. Can anyone say revolt. Again, shame on you Ed. 

 

Well this sucks to hear.  as per @knickerbocker @cassel191919 I was planning on joining soon.  I guess time to rethink.

[StudentGolfer4]

On 1/21/2022 at 11:34 PM, Teddy Ruxbton said:

Worse decision Ed Walker could have ever made. I’ve been a member for over 10 years. We used to be ranked as a top 15 course in the nation. Escalante has no money and will most certainly take this special place down several notches. Shame on you Ed. I have spoken to over a dozen legacy members that had the money to preserve our special club. Can anyone say revolt. Again, shame on you Ed. 

Whoa whoa whoa. When was Kingsley ranked as a top 15 course in the nation?! Everyone I have talked with has good things to say about the place but I’ve never heard it mentioned in the same breath as other courses that are consistently ranked top 15-20.
 

You mention being a member for 10+ years so I’m not exactly sure the the timeframe you are referring to, but with the exception of Frairs Head, Sand Hills, and the Bandon courses, it seems like almost all of the courses rated that highly are well established courses that have been there for many years. Even the courses I mentioned above have been around longer than 10 years. My point being, it’s not like a bunch of new courses would have knocked it out of the top 15. 

Edited January 24, 2022 by StudentGolfer4

[cassel191919]

9 hours ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

Whoa whoa whoa. When was Kingsley ranked as a top 15 course in the nation?! Everyone I have talked with has good things to say about the place but I’ve never heard it mentioned in the same breath as other courses that are consistently ranked top 15-20.
 

You mention being a member for 10+ years so I’m not exactly sure the the timeframe you are referring to, but with the exception of Frairs Head, Sand Hills, and the Bandon courses, it seems like almost all of the courses rated that highly are well established courses that have been there for many years. Even the courses I mentioned above have been around longer than 10 years. My point being, it’s not like a bunch of new courses would have knocked it out of the top 15. 

Its always an opinion, all I can say is the course is incredible and I don't think I have ever had more fun playing golf then my rounds at Kingsley. Every time it can play just a little bit different, I just love that place.

[BG5]

We all know that rankings are just peoples opinions and the change often.  Its always been ranked pretty high in terms of "Modern" courses so I think thats what the top 15 ranking he is referring to.  Bottom line its  a great track and one of the best that I have ever played.  Here is a list coming from Kingsley website.  But we all know rankings are wild and change often.

 

Ranked #79 in Top 100 Courses, GOLF MAGAZINE 2020

 

Ranked #20 in Top 100 Modern Courses, Golfweek 2020

Ranked #81 in World 100, Planet Golf 2019

#85 in Best in USA, top100golfcourses.com

Ranked #121 in America's Second Greatest, Golf Digest 2019

Best Damn Clubs Around, Golf Digest 2014

America’s 50 Greatest Golf Retreats, Golf Digest

[BG5]

Called Escalante Golf

 

Formal announcement coming next week

 

Cost to join us $20,000 initiation fee and then annual dues are $5000 for life 

 

It gives you access to all of their golf properties which is pretty cool.

 

$20,000 fee is pretty steep in my opinion but $5000 a year plus access all their clubs for free except cart if you choose is awesome 

 

If I were to retire I’d play Kingsley in summer and Black Diamond Ranch in winter in florida 

 

pumpkin ridge in Oregon is sweet as well

 

 

 

 

 

 

[knickerbocker]

5 minutes ago, BG5 said:

Called Escalante Golf

 

Formal announcement coming next week

 

Cost to join us $20,000 initiation fee and then annual dues are $5000 for life 

 

It gives you access to all of their golf properties which is pretty cool.

 

$20,000 fee is pretty steep in my opinion but $5000 a year plus access all their clubs for free except cart if you choose is awesome 

 

If I were to retire I’d play Kingsley in summer and Black Diamond Ranch in winter in florida 

 

pumpkin ridge in Oregon is sweet as well

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That financial model makes very little sense unless they have giant scale of members and other revenue streams.  Kingsley doesn't have the clubhouse to drive significant food/bev revenues. 

[BG5]

38 minutes ago, knickerbocker said:

 

That financial model makes very little sense unless they have giant scale of members and other revenue streams.  Kingsley doesn't have the clubhouse to drive significant food/bev revenues. 

great point…. I’m curious how Kingsley members will react.  Are they gonna be mad or will they like the access to other clubs?

 

Does $20,000 seem steep to anyone else.  I know at one time imitation was like $5000 to Kingsley 

[cassel191919]

11 minutes ago, BG5 said:

great point…. I’m curious how Kingsley members will react.  Are they gonna be mad or will they like the access to other clubs?

 

Does $20,000 seem steep to anyone else.  I know at one time imitation was like $5000 to Kingsley 

$20,000 and only 5 k a year sounds pretty good to me for that course. I am curious to see how this all turns out.

[TooMuchAwesome]

Not to get too far off topic - but in terms of unaccompanied guest play, does anyone know KC's policy heading into 2022?

 

My BILs and I are taking a trip to Arcadia in early May and would love to play KC on our way home on Sunday, late morning/early afternoon. I don't have a club membership anywhere so asking for club reciprocity is out of the question, and while I've met the Arcadia pro, he is not able to reach out on our behalf. The next logical step is to throw a Hail Mary and reach out to KC directly, but I'm just curious if anyone here knows what their current policy is. While I don't want to get my hopes up, I really want to cross this off the Bucket List!! Any insight is certainly appreciated. 

[cassel191919]

15 minutes ago, TooMuchAwesome said:

Not to get too far off topic - but in terms of unaccompanied guest play, does anyone know KC's policy heading into 2022?

 

My BILs and I are taking a trip to Arcadia in early May and would love to play KC on our way home on Sunday, late morning/early afternoon. I don't have a club membership anywhere so asking for club reciprocity is out of the question, and while I've met the Arcadia pro, he is not able to reach out on our behalf. The next logical step is to throw a Hail Mary and reach out to KC directly, but I'm just curious if anyone here knows what their current policy is. While I don't want to get my hopes up, I really want to cross this off the Bucket List!! Any insight is certainly appreciated. 

If all of the regular employees stay, they are all really good guys. An email to the club or a call from the Pro at whatever course you play regularly could help. With covid the amount of play and memberships went up considerably, so it could be tough. Always worth it to ask, the worst thing they can say is no.

[vandyfan]

1 hour ago, BG5 said:

great point…. I’m curious how Kingsley members will react.  Are they gonna be mad or will they like the access to other clubs?

 

Does $20,000 seem steep to anyone else.  I know at one time imitation was like $5000 to Kingsley 

 

It's all relative but the top, golf-only private course near Nashville costs approximately $100k to join but we also have close to a year-round season down here. If annual dues are only 5K for a 8 month season that works out to about $625 a month which is extremely reasonable for a high end golf club in today's inflationary environment, no?

[knickerbocker]

1 hour ago, BG5 said:

great point…. I’m curious how Kingsley members will react.  Are they gonna be mad or will they like the access to other clubs?

 

Does $20,000 seem steep to anyone else.  I know at one time imitation was like $5000 to Kingsley 

 

20K pop seems right.  $5000 a year is cheap for a private club. 

[StudentGolfer4]

33 minutes ago, blackbdmillsaps said:

 

It's all relative but the top, golf-only private course near Nashville costs approximately $100k to join but we also have close to a year-round season down here. If annual dues are only 5K for a 8 month season that works out to about $625 a month which is extremely reasonable for a high end golf club in today's inflationary environment, no?

Im sure someone else will chime in, but I think the big difference is the two markets. The size of Nashville and the amount of money in that town are much much larger than what you will find in Traverse City and the surrounding areas. 
 

Im guessing there are days you can play in the early spring and late fall but to say TC has an 8th month golf season might not be the most accurate thing either. In March the average high is 39 and low of 22. April is 53 high and lows still at freezing. All good with 53 but the idea that it’s still below freezing many days doesn’t seem great for golf. By comparison Arcadia bluffs usually opens at the very end of April or early May and closes mid October. 
 

From the way I’ve heard people talk about Kingsley, I’ve always gotten the impression that it was more of a National membership club or for people with summer homes near TC. I wonder if Dormie Network considered trying to buy it and build cottages. Seems like the type of place that would fit well with their model.