Kingsley Club Sold to Escalante Golf

[david.c.w]

Sounds like this sucks.

 

I hope this does not screw up my June plans.  Been going for a couple years for my friends birthday (national member from Chicago).  Stayed in the cottages this year, and had my first ace on #9.  Was REALLY looking forward to going back.

 

[BG5]

5 minutes ago, david.c.w said:

Sounds like this sucks.

 

I hope this does not screw up my June plans.  Been going for a couple years for my friends birthday (national member from Chicago).  Stayed in the cottages this year, and had my first ace on #9.  Was REALLY looking forward to going back.

 

 

#9 is a tough hole 🙂  I am sure you will be able to play Kingsley if you like.  Knicker makes a good point in previous posts but hopefully you can still get on.

[BG5]

What surprises me about the $20K initiation fee $5k dues is the initiation fee.  The dues are low but I inquired a few years ago to Kingsley and it was $5000 initiation fee and $2800 dues but that was for their national membership.  Times were also different then in the golf world as many places were hurting for business.

 

I called up to Bay Harbor and you can be a member there for $4800 annual dues and they are currently waiving the $11,500 initiation fee and you get access to Bay Harbor along with their 12 other courses.  Pretty sweet deal in my opinion as well.  I have always loved the Links 9 hole stretch and its my favorite of any 9 holes I have ever played anywhere.  Kingsely front 9 is a close second to me.  I know Bay Harbor gets dogged for its Quarry section ( I kind of get it) but I think I could get used to playing that 27 course along with the other 12 courses for $4800 a year 🙂  

 

Northern Michigan is loaded with great courses.  Last I check Black Lake had memberships for $950...LOL

[david.c.w]

5 minutes ago, BG5 said:

 

#9 is a tough hole 🙂  I am sure you will be able to play Kingsley if you like.  Knicker makes a good point in previous posts but hopefully you can still get on.

 

I am assuming he will still be a member.  He joined for about what you quoted as a national member about 3 years ago.  May have even been less.  He was flabbergasted how cheap it was.  I guess for $20k if you get X number of courses around the country, it works out.  Not for me right now, but for others...

 

 

[knickerbocker]

15 hours ago, BG5 said:

What surprises me about the $20K initiation fee $5k dues is the initiation fee.  The dues are low but I inquired a few years ago to Kingsley and it was $5000 initiation fee and $2800 dues but that was for their national membership.  Times were also different then in the golf world as many places were hurting for business.

 

I called up to Bay Harbor and you can be a member there for $4800 annual dues and they are currently waiving the $11,500 initiation fee and you get access to Bay Harbor along with their 12 other courses.  Pretty sweet deal in my opinion as well.  I have always loved the Links 9 hole stretch and its my favorite of any 9 holes I have ever played anywhere.  Kingsely front 9 is a close second to me.  I know Bay Harbor gets dogged for its Quarry section ( I kind of get it) but I think I could get used to playing that 27 course along with the other 12 courses for $4800 a year 🙂  

 

Northern Michigan is loaded with great courses.  Last I check Black Lake had memberships for $950...LOL

 

Huge difference between joining a public course vs joining a private course.  Joining Bay Harbor and fighting all the Boyne traffic would not be worth the cost. 

[cassel191919]

15 minutes ago, knickerbocker said:

 

Huge difference between joining a public course vs joining a private course.  Joining Bay Harbor and fighting all the Boyne traffic would not be worth the cost. 

On weekends I agree, but Monday through Thursday  its like you have the course to yourself even Friday morning is good. This is the other membership I plan on getting when I move up north for the summer full time.

[BG5]

Cassel, Knicker

 

Who knows....maybe we will be members someday together at Kingsley or Bay Harbor 🙂  Agree that public golf poses a HUGE risk with a lot of tee times.  Id be curious to know how booked up Bay Harbor gets in the summer months.  I am sure it gets a lot of play being the best of the boyne courses (or at least the course that most want to play)

[BG5]

True North has also always intrigued me 🙂  The wife and I ate dinner their last year and the food was outstanding as was the atmosphere with live music.  The course is not perfect but the vibe was pretty cool .....any feedback on those that have played the course alot?

 

The cool thing about Kingsley is that there is basically nobody there and you have the course to yourself a lot of the time or at least thats what many of the members that I know have said.  

 

Once thing I kind of want in retirment is a regular game and a group of guys to BS with on the course a long with make some new friendships with people who have the same interests as I do.

 

My core group of friends now is great but I doubt they will be joining a place like Kingsley, Bay Harbor, or True North.  I just love Northern Michigan and the laid back vibe the area has.  There is def some money up there but I have always been treated with respect by everyone

Edited January 25, 2022 by BG5

[cassel191919]

2 hours ago, BG5 said:

True North has also always intrigued me 🙂  The wife and I ate dinner their last year and the food was outstanding as was the atmosphere with live music.  The course is not perfect but the vibe was pretty cool .....any feedback on those that have played the course alot?

 

The cool thing about Kingsley is that there is basically nobody there and you have the course to yourself a lot of the time or at least thats what many of the members that I know have said.  

 

Once thing I kind of want in retirment is a regular game and a group of guys to BS with on the course a long with make some new friendships with people who have the same interests as I do.

 

My core group of friends now is great but I doubt they will be joining a place like Kingsley, Bay Harbor, or True North.  I just love Northern Michigan and the laid back vibe the area has.  There is def some money up there but I have always been treated with respect by everyone

This is also one of small fears I have about retirement, I talk to all of my friends and they always say there is no chance they will be able to retire. I am 34 and don't plan on working 1 day past 55 and hopefully can do it much earlier. I just wonder will it be as hard for my generation to actually retire, I am assuming I am going to need a whole new group of friends for weekly games.

[StudentGolfer4]

8 minutes ago, cassel191919 said:

This is also one of small fears I have about retirement, I talk to all of my friends and they always say there is no chance they will be able to retire. I am 34 and don't plan on working 1 day past 55 and hopefully can do it much earlier. I just wonder will it be as hard for my generation to actually retire, I am assuming I am going to need a whole new group of friends for weekly games.

Not to be political, but a lot has changed with this generation. 30-40 years ago it was possible for 1 parent on a average salary to work while the other stayed home to help raise the kids. People working factory jobs were able to provide for a family. It was possible for college students to work during the summers and pay their tuition. I have multiple friends paying 10-12k for daycare for one child. Retirement and homeownership is now a pipe dream for many. 

[cassel191919]

2 hours ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

Not to be political, but a lot has changed with this generation. 30-40 years ago it was possible for 1 parent on a average salary to work while the other stayed home to help raise the kids. People working factory jobs were able to provide for a family. It was possible for college students to work during the summers and pay their tuition. I have multiple friends paying 10-12k for daycare for one child. Retirement and homeownership is now a pipe dream for many. 

No doubt, I have a nice worthless degree on the shelf I don't want to get started on the rip off our education system lol.

[Chanceman]

I have been retired for over 10 years now and it has been a lot of fun with lots of new friends and renewing many old ones - mostly on the golf course. My wife thinks its great that I spend 3 days a week out of her way scrambling the odd birdie. But it has to be said that it cant go on forever - health and money do start to decline. Just trying to squeeze in a few more golf trips before the rot sets in.

[prodigy10]

On 1/17/2022 at 7:24 PM, ND2005 said:

Interesting. 
 
I know Zach Peed/Dormie Network were in the mix for this purchase.

 

Don’t know if they backed off or got outbid or what 

 

Here in TX the members of GCOH and Shadow Hawk have been beyond disappointed in the ownership 

 

they didnt back off.... 

[puttnforthe8]

On 1/25/2022 at 4:33 PM, Chanceman said:

I have been retired for over 10 years now and it has been a lot of fun with lots of new friends and renewing many old ones - mostly on the golf course. My wife thinks its great that I spend 3 days a week out of her way scrambling the odd birdie. But it has to be said that it cant go on forever - health and money do start to decline. Just trying to squeeze in a few more golf trips before the rot sets in.

I want to get a round in w/ ya before you croak @Chanceman!!!  🤣

 

Have you done a Whistler or Banff Trip?  Let's get a round there!

[BG5]

I called up Escalante Golf to inquire about a membership at Kingsley and I must say I was impressed with the gentlemen on the phone.  I think the members at Kingsley will be happy with the new ownership.

 

Escalante Golf has what they call an "icon" membership which allows people access to various private courses in the Escalante Portfolio.  After having my discussion it does not appear that Kingsley Club will be included in that "Icon" membership so members dont have to be worried about a bunch of new people going to Kingsley.  

 

It did sound like the initiation fee might be moving to $30,000 and dues increase above the $4800 that they are now.

 

Bottom line is it appears that the new ownership group wants to keep Kingsley as a laid back private club as it always has been.  I think that the new members will be happy about this.  Hopefully I can call it my home club some day.  Initiation fees are at an all time high at all clubs right now so this is not surprising.  I wonder if private clubs will continue to get this amount of interest or not in the future

[knickerbocker]

3 hours ago, BG5 said:

I called up Escalante Golf to inquire about a membership at Kingsley and I must say I was impressed with the gentlemen on the phone.  I think the members at Kingsley will be happy with the new ownership.

 

Escalante Golf has what they call an "icon" membership which allows people access to various private courses in the Escalante Portfolio.  After having my discussion it does not appear that Kingsley Club will be included in that "Icon" membership so members dont have to be worried about a bunch of new people going to Kingsley.  

 

It did sound like the initiation fee might be moving to $30,000 and dues increase above the $4800 that they are now.

 

Bottom line is it appears that the new ownership group wants to keep Kingsley as a laid back private club as it always has been.  I think that the new members will be happy about this.  Hopefully I can call it my home club some day.  Initiation fees are at an all time high at all clubs right now so this is not surprising.  I wonder if private clubs will continue to get this amount of interest or not in the future

 

Private club demand is cyclical, - mostly dependent on the economy and the market.  The last two years has had an excellent market and high demand for golf.  That will temper over the next few years. 

[5UnderThru5]

On 1/24/2022 at 3:46 PM, TooMuchAwesome said:

Not to get too far off topic - but in terms of unaccompanied guest play, does anyone know KC's policy heading into 2022?

 

My BILs and I are taking a trip to Arcadia in early May and would love to play KC on our way home on Sunday, late morning/early afternoon. I don't have a club membership anywhere so asking for club reciprocity is out of the question, and while I've met the Arcadia pro, he is not able to reach out on our behalf. The next logical step is to throw a Hail Mary and reach out to KC directly, but I'm just curious if anyone here knows what their current policy is. While I don't want to get my hopes up, I really want to cross this off the Bucket List!! Any insight is certainly appreciated. 

Typically unaccompanied guests are allowed if a member calls the shop for you in advance. I know that has been happening a lot in 2021. But without a member to call ahead for you it will be very tough if not impossible. If you do get to go, though, please replace your divots and pitch marks on the greens please! 

[lmcconnell]

@knickerbocker is correct. It's a terribly cyclical industry that I've worked in. I think you could argue that right now is the worst time to join a club in about 15 years, at least. Furthermore, and not to get political at all, baby boomers are getting older and the younger generations are taking up golf at an alarmingly low rate. I've had the privilege to play some high-end courses and have seen two top 200 courses that I am familiar with increase their downstroke by six figures! I would imagine their stance is "this can't last forever, so get the money while we can."

 

I think we are in a massive bubble and I think that bubble is going to pop before too long. But that's just my two cents.

 

As an ex-pat Michigander, I hate to see Kingsley do this.

 

All the best.

[ND2005]

On 2/4/2022 at 12:08 PM, lmcconnell said:

 

 

I think we are in a massive bubble and I think that bubble is going to pop before too long. But that's just my two cents.

 

 

I don't know, I don't see the bubble bursting soon (meaning within the next 5 years). It is definitely a cyclical industry but it is on a hard upturn that even outpaces the Tiger Woods effect growth of the 90s. People aren't just going to quit overnight. 

[golfortennis]

On 2/7/2022 at 10:42 AM, ND2005 said:

 

I don't know, I don't see the bubble bursting soon (meaning within the next 5 years). It is definitely a cyclical industry but it is on a hard upturn that even outpaces the Tiger Woods effect growth of the 90s. People aren't just going to quit overnight. 

 

That all depends, though, on what else people are doing.  Will kids' sports be back in full swing?  Will other activities that adults took part in be back?  What about work from home?  There is a big contingent of these new players who won't be playing as much if they need to be in the office again, and if that happens, how many of them start to question the fees they are paying considering the amount of golf?

 

I think a lot of people were somewhat "forced" into golf since there was little else, and it could flip just as easily.

[Craig Golden]

On 1/22/2022 at 3:34 PM, BG5 said:

 

Do you have a rough estimate as to how many members Kingsley has?  You think its over 150?

 

[Qswipe1]

Last summer the guys in the clubhouse mentioned membership was 330+.  Of the 330+ members 80%+ are national members (residence a minimum of 70 miles away).  Initiation fee over the last 4 or 5 years has gone from $5k to $8k to $15k to $20k.  National membership dues this year are $4.8k.   I think local membership is $1k+ more.  Nothing will change with Ed around and chairman.  I expect change once Ed is out of the picture.  Lots of stuff online regarding Escalante.  Pretty easy to get a feel of what could be coming.

[BG5]

On 2/21/2022 at 2:21 PM, Qswipe1 said:

Last summer the guys in the clubhouse mentioned membership was 330+.  Of the 330+ members 80%+ are national members (residence a minimum of 70 miles away).  Initiation fee over the last 4 or 5 years has gone from $5k to $8k to $15k to $20k.  National membership dues this year are $4.8k.   I think local membership is $1k+ more.  Nothing will change with Ed around and chairman.  I expect change once Ed is out of the picture.  Lots of stuff online regarding Escalante.  Pretty easy to get a feel of what could be coming.

I did not realize Ed was still chairman… any idea how long he will stick around?

[Qswipe1]

As long he's above ground.  I think this is one of the deciding factors and why Dormie lost out.  Plus Dormie would build a new club house and add more lodging (60 beds).  The club house has been a bone of contention with Ed for years. I also heard Ed wanted to keep ownership of the cottages.  Not sure if he got that with Escalante.  Dormie would not let him do that.

[Rodmike10]

On 1/22/2022 at 5:34 PM, BG5 said:

 

Do you have a rough estimate as to how many members Kingsley has?  You think its over 150?

 

300 +/-

 

The majority are out-of-state members. 

[puttnforthe8]

I will be up in Michigan July 31-Aug 6 playing golf.  The current plan is to play Kingsley and others.  I would be interested in meeting and playing with some members if it works out.  If anyone is around that time, let me know. The plan is for the Wednesday of that week to play based on the intro from the membership team.

[cassel191919]

On 3/25/2022 at 8:47 PM, puttnforthe8 said:

I will be up in Michigan July 31-Aug 6 playing golf.  The current plan is to play Kingsley and others.  I would be interested in meeting and playing with some members if it works out.  If anyone is around that time, let me know. The plan is for the Wednesday of that week to play based on the intro from the membership team.

They have a pretty big AM tournament during those dates, have you already set up your time?

[puttnforthe8]

4 hours ago, cassel191919 said:

They have a pretty big AM tournament during those dates, have you already set up your time?

Really - bummer - just correspondence so far.

 

My MI trip is turning a wee bit sour.  American Dunes is closed the only day we can play it, and now this news. 

[cassel191919]

18 minutes ago, puttnforthe8 said:

Really - bummer - just correspondence so far.

 

My MI trip is turning a wee bit sour.  American Dunes is closed the only day we can play it, and now this news. 

The tournament is 4-6th, so you may have some luck in the days before.  

[Qswipe1]

Lochenheath is a good option as well.  Escalante has changed nothing.  So other than the amateur tournament you should be able to get on.  Unaccompanied rates are $400 (including cart) plus tip for mandatory fore caddie.  Replay is $130 including cart.  Last year unaccompanied guests were not allowed to tee off before 2pm.  Not sure if that is the case this year.  Accompanied is $180 including cart and no mandatory fore caddie (although I do recommend one).  Not sure if you are a member or not.  I am and could be able to host you.  Also a member at another private club in West Michigan and could host you there as well -- instead of American Dunes.