The Future of Golf

[david.c.w]

Just now, akronswitness said:

 

Okay. What if somebody doesnt want hand me down garbage outdated equipment. Just because you did it doesnt mean everyone else has to. You only did that because you had no other option.

 

Do you know how much money Ping or TM would make if they released a beginners BRAND NEW set for $350 (which is still a 300% markup for the manufacturer). Not only would they own an entire segment of the golf community and capture that entire market, they would get future repeat business out the *** because those entry golfers would become brand loyal.

 

If you were the CEO of Ping, would you want somebody who wants to get into golf digging through a barrel of used clubs from your competitors or would you want to supply them a option to buy from you?

 

But this is how it works for almost everyone, especially if you are low on funds.  My wife and I make a great living and are members of a private club.  My son wanted to try lacrosse.  Do you think we went out and spent $600 on new stuff?  No way.  We went to play it again sports and got a used stick.  We borrowed pads and helmet from an older neighbor.   The only thing we got new was a pair of those ridiculous shorts that were popular 10 years ago.

 

If you are buying brand new, brand name equipment for someone who has never played, you are either an idiot or extremely wealthy.  

 

Most people don't go out and fill out their bag in one shot.  First a newer driver, then update the irons, then 1 new wedge, then a new bag, then another wedge, and on and on and on.  I play 50+ rounds a year, and everything in my bag is 3-8 years old.  The only thing new is my bag.

[akronswitness]

Just now, vallygolf said:

Let me know the minute you find anyone who thinks this will work to any degree.  I have a friend with some Denars he wants to sell.

 

lol Im sure you have a marketing degree to know these things. Remember in that last post I made where everybodies answer to anything put in their face way "Bleh, no wont work, golf is fine"

 

Yeah....this is one of those situations.

[Pepperturbo]

30 minutes ago, akronswitness said:

 

While I agree with that, there are some other factors. I think a lot of the reason people buy buy buy is because people are gullible and get sucked into marketing in the golf industry more than any other industry I have ever seen. If TM comes out with a new driver--spends 10M in advertising saying its "Carbon, longer, straighter, better" people feel like they need to buy because of fear of not performing the best. In reality 90% of new $500 drivers dont do anything for your game. People are just addicted to thinking equipment will make a hard game easier so they will spend whatever the pricetag is.

 

My point with the equipment is this: Why doesnt every manufacturer release a entry level type of set. Scale back the technology and materials and make a introduction game improvement set for beginners that retails at.....lets say......$350.

 

Ski/Snowboard companies do it. Car companies have 'trim levels' that drastically change the price of the vehicle. Why cant TM/Callway/Ping/Cleveland come out with a 'I want to get into golf for the first time and dont want to spend 2k on new equipment' set. You would then hook customers into that brand and keep them buying from you when they want to upgrade into your $900-1,200 sets.

 

Because they dont do this, other companies like Vice and Sub70 have been established where you can get new equipment tailored to you and 1/2 the cost but they are largely unknown to the new golfer.

Are you trying to write a term paper...have a good day? 

[akronswitness]

1 minute ago, david.c.w said:

 

But this is how it works for almost everyone, especially if you are low on funds.  My wife and I make a great living and are members of a private club.  My son wanted to try lacrosse.  Do you think we went out and spent $600 on new stuff?  No way.  We went to play it again sports and got a used stick.  We borrowed pads and helmet from an older neighbor.   The only thing we got new was a pair of those ridiculous shorts that were popular 10 years ago.

 

If you are buying brand new, brand name equipment for someone who has never played, you are either an idiot or extremely wealthy.  

 

Most people don't go out and fill out their bag in one shot.  First a newer driver, then update the irons, then 1 new wedge, then a new bag, then another wedge, and on and on and on.  I play 50+ rounds a year, and everything in my bag is 3-8 years old.  The only thing new is my bag.

 

Its only 'this is how it works' because you had no other option. When you were rummaging through a used club bin looking to scrape a set together for $350-- woulnt you have rather just had the option to buy a brand new set for the same cost and have nice shiny new toys to play with?

 

To your second point, the iron set Im referring to for companies to start making would come with the same price tag as putting together a used set. So there is no additional cost.

[scotee]

13 minutes ago, akronswitness said:

 

Easy. Quantity over quality and guaranteed repeat business.

 

I know people hate to believe it--but not every single golf course in packed to the brim every night of the week. Pick the slowest night of the week for your course, make that night Student night. 

 

Get 50+ golfers on your course for $20 a pop every Tuesday night over 10 golfers for full price. Plus, if you did the food/drink specials--you would make money hand over fist from students. Far more than Steve and Susie who are out on the course for their general health.

 

Our course has tried some of these things with mixed results. Couples date night nine and dine. Parent child night. The effect was small and short lived. They put in a foot golf course and I never saw one person use it. I call that a gimmick.

 

Bottom line is the 40-80 members buy the season passes every year. They (we) rent the cart houses. They support the association tournaments. They order food and drinks and play poker in the clubhouse. They are the life blood of golf where I live. We have younger stronger golfers that join us from time to time who really enjoy hanging and learning from the senior crowd. We are open to have them with us and they are welcome to bring their friends. Tradition does not have to be dull. Most of these youngsters leave with a smile on there face and some good stories to tell.  (and a few new words)

[akronswitness]

5 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

Are you trying to write a term paper...have a good day? 

 

No. Im trying to have a deeper discussion about how golf as a sport and the community of people who follows it can get out of the stone age and make changes for the better to increase the audience so golf as a sport doesnt die when boomers do.

[david.c.w]

2 minutes ago, akronswitness said:

 

No. Im trying to have a deeper discussion about how golf as a sport and the community of people who follows it can get out of the stone age and make changes for the better to increase the audience so golf as a sport doesnt die when boomers do.

We have a 103 person waitlist for golf membership.  90% are under 50.  

[Pepperturbo]

4 minutes ago, akronswitness said:

 

No. Im trying to have a deeper discussion about how golf as a sport and the community of people who follows it can get out of the stone age and make changes for the better to increase the audience so golf as a sport doesnt die when boomers do.

IMO you're not accomplishing anything of the sort.  When you reach the top of a hierarchy in a company that influences the direction of golf, then you may be able to collaborate with other powers to be and make some changes.  Till then, you're just idealist and naive. 

 

FYI: like other boomers that built and create jobs, this boomer has put people into place to carry on my beliefs.   

Edited February 9, 2022 by Pepperturbo

[akronswitness]

2 minutes ago, scotee said:

 

Our course has tried some of these things with mixed results. Couples date night nine and dine. Parent child night. The effect was small and short lived. They put in a foot golf course and I never saw one person use it. I call that a gimmick.

 

Bottom line is the 40-80 members buy the season passes every year. They (we) rent the cart houses. They support the association tournaments. They order food and drinks and play poker in the clubhouse. They are the life blood of golf where I live. We have younger stronger golfers that join us from time to time who really enjoy hanging and learning from the senior crowd. We are open to have them with us and they are welcome to bring their friends. Tradition does not have to be dull. Most of these youngsters leave with a smile on there face and some good stories to tell.  (and a few new words)

 

Thats great to hear! But I think the situation Im referring to differs from your instance a little bit. Im referring to local muni courses, not CCs or anywhere that has no problem already generating business from a membership group. The purpose of the Student night would be driven by financial reasons--which is why I think it would get better turnout than a date night nine or parent child night.

[akronswitness]

1 minute ago, david.c.w said:

We have a 103 person waitlist for golf membership.  90% are under 50.  

 

Thats great for your course. 3 of the 6 local courses in my community just went bankrupt and got bulldozed and over 2,500 courses nationwide closed since 2006.

[scotee]

1 minute ago, akronswitness said:

 

Thats great to hear! But I think the situation Im referring to differs from your instance a little bit. Im referring to local muni courses, not CCs or anywhere that has no problem already generating business from a membership group. The purpose of the Student night would be driven by financial reasons--which is why I think it would get better turnout than a date night nine or parent child night.

 

My course is a muni.

 

[akronswitness]

7 minutes ago, scotee said:

 

My course is a muni.

 

Weird, none of the muni courses in my area do community involvement, tournaments or have a line of members out the door waiting to get in and use the facilities. One of the nicest public courses around told me they never hosted a event before so they didnt know the cost of how much it would be to rent out a room for a family get together. He told me 'uhhh, just give us like $100 for the day to use the room I guess"

Well we do, but that type of level of involvement with the course stuff is found at the CCs. 

Edited February 9, 2022 by akronswitness

[vallygolf]

18 minutes ago, akronswitness said:

 

Thats great for your course. 3 of the 6 local courses in my community just went bankrupt and got bulldozed and over 2,500 courses nationwide closed since 2006.

Name the 3.

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, akronswitness said:

 

it doesnt matter what time period Im referencing because we are dealing with long enough trends, not year to year bounces trying to predict things--we already know. A 15 year sample size is long enough to deem concernable about the statistics. Like, what do you think its going to go back to when it corrects? You think its going to back to 1980 statistics in the year 2025? 

 

We live in a entire different economy with different generations with different interests and hobbies now. You cant just assume "dont worry it will go back to being gravy in 10 more years just like it did back in 1990 before HD television" 

 

Thats not how this works, its fluid. You need to be constantly improving and innovating to drive new business. You cant just keep throwing out the same product every year expecting an entire new generation to take ahold of it like their grandparents did. Your dealing with the technology generation now, not the Im going to go outside and golf because there is nothing else to entertain me but being outside generation. golf is fighting for attention from the 10-40 year old crowd with factors that the 50-80 year old generation in the 1970-1990s didnt have.

 

 

 

So your new fallback position is that golf participation is cyclical but we should all conveniently ignore the current 4 year and certain 5 year trends that are overwhelmingly positive? 

 

LOL.

 

Of course, all because you've been fibbing about it since the first post.

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

With respect to courses closing, yes they still are but an interesting fact is that levels of investment in improvements/renovations to existing courses have been on an uptick - also an indicator things are in a good place and providing opportunities.

[ShortGolfer]

The nearest private golf course has single/family memberships according to age.  Less than 26 and less than 36 year old members presumably pay less.

They also have an agreement with the town that lets residents over 60 play without paying green fees on Mondays.

 

There are advertised classes for women where I live.

Edited February 9, 2022 by ShortGolfer

[Abh159]

A golf course in his hometown closes down.

 

The OP's response:

 

[david.c.w]

So everyone is piling on OP, myself included, and it is somewhat deserved.

 

To be fair to OP I just did a quick check of golf in Akron Ohio, where I assume he lives.  Public golf in Akron looks like it absolutely sucks eggs.  Closed all winter and when open in the summer, the rates are in the $25 - $30  range for most.  While price should not be the only indicator of quality, if there is not a decent local variety, I can see how the region may be more depressed than other places in the country, leading to an overall negative outlook for the industry.

 

@akronswitness, take a trip to SoCal and try and find a tee time.  Yes that is an extreme, but golf right now is really healthy in many, many places in the US and the world.

[vallygolf]

 

[TwistedSister]

The idea that is takes 250K to play golf is absurd.  When I started playing golf in 1967  I was in a family of 10 children and my parents were both factory line workers.  But my Mom still was able to find me clubs that were playable and affordable and I played a local Par 3 course with a group lesson every week in the summer.  By the time I was 14 I was playing HS golf and was on the Varsity by the time I was 17.  I even played college golf (NAIA)  for one year before I quit school.  So One does not need to be a Highly paid person to play golf.  I have had many sets of Golf clubs in my 50+ years of golfing but have until this year NEVER purchased a set of NEW model clubs.  And I only did that because they were 50% off MSRP.  Just buy what is affordable and play a Municpal course on a yearly fee pass.  Heck the course I grew up on is still only charging $475 a year to play ALL you want. 

[klebs01]

A Callaway Great Big Bertha was $500 in 1995. Adjusted for inflation that’s $915. In real terms, equipment prices are down 33%. 

[Soloman1]

Golf is dead, long live golf.

[PNB_Golf]

Belmont golf course in Richmond, VA did a really cool renovation recently that I think could be the future of golf. This course is a A.W. Tillinghast design and hosted the 1949 PGA Championship but was on the brink of being turned into a county park a couple years ago. Last year they finished a renovation where they restored 12 of the original holes (holes 7-18 from the original routing), put in a 6 hole short course, an 18 hole putting course, great short game area and improved the range. Some people hate it because they got rid of the opening 6 holes but I think it's great that they saved such a historic course and its accessible to so many people since its run by The First Tee. I'm a member at a country club but could see other struggling courses adopt this model.

 

 

[MrParr1Noid]

10 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

Most kids quit golf when they get to high school.

About the time they quit going to church and  find women.  😉

[Hawkeye77]

22 minutes ago, MrParr1Noid said:

About the time they quit going to church and  find women.  😉

Yep, like a great singer referenced — “the missing years”, lol. 

[bladehunter]

I think if we ban music , ban carts without a medical flag , and shrank the driver and or pulll back the ball we can get the game back down to a level where we can walk an evening 9 .  Since Covid you can’t get on my course till 20 min before dark.  5 years ago I could  walk out any day of the week after 3 and have the course to myself.  I know because I did it almost daily. Now ? I’m down to 1 round a week because of all the yahoos. 

[Hawkeye77]

11 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

I think if we ban music , ban carts without a medical flag , and shrank the driver and or pulll back the ball we can get the game back down to a level where we can walk an evening 9 .  Since Covid you can’t get on my course till 20 min before dark.  5 years ago I could  walk out any day of the week after 3 and have the course to myself.  I know because I did it almost daily. Now ? I’m down to 1 round a week because of all the yahoos. 

And ban all beer and cigars on the course!  Will be just be you and me out there - we'll grow "our" game! 😀

 

Just teasing! 

 

The very real surge in interest has had its effects on availability and experience - we're lucky at our course that most weekend evenings F-Sun and even Monday and Wednesday evenings in the busy months are still relatively golfer free.  Saturday mornings are jammed from first light, Sundays as well but only for about an 8 week period.  My wife and I can go out on a Sunday evening, for example, and typically it's us, another couple that's out there around the same time and an 88 year old who is out there every night all at various places on the course and just about nobody else.   Other options for folks in the evenings take precedence and usually leave the course pretty quiet except for a league night.

[amace04]

19 hours ago, akronswitness said:

Do you know how much money Ping or TM would make if they released a beginners BRAND NEW set for $350 (which is still a 300% markup for the manufacturer). Not only would they own an entire segment of the golf community and capture that entire market, they would get future repeat business out the *** because those entry golfers would become brand loyal.

 

If you were the CEO of Ping, would you want somebody who wants to get into golf digging through a barrel of used clubs from your competitors or would you want to supply them with a option to buy new clubs at a similar cost from you?

 

 

 

Tell me you have no concept of how business works without saying you have no concept of how business works.

 

If making a $350 set of crappy clubs is such a slam-dunk decision, why don't premium companies do it?

It's simple, they ruin their premier brand name.  Brand equity in golf is everything.  Why do people buy the latest Taylormade or Titleist driver and not the latest Cleveland driver?  Are they that much better, or is the brand just more recognizable.    Taylormade wants to be THE BEST brand in golf.  So does Titleist.  So does Ping.   They don't accomplish that by pumping out crap product under their premium name.  BTW, on the topic of Cleveland... they in fact do sell $300 junior sets.   Do you know who owns Cleveland?  Same company that owns Srixon.  They wouldn't dare sell a cheap set of Srixon clubs, they sell them under their cheaper brand.  The same company also owns Dunlop, who... you guessed it... sells cheap $300 golf sets.

 

Tour Edge, Wilson, Strata... all sell sets ranging from $300 to $500.  

 

Same thing with balls.  Noodle balls are cheap, great for beginners or just people on a budget.  Know who owns Noodle?  Taylormade.   I can buy 15 Noodle Soft balls for $19. A dozen Taylormade RBZ or Soft Response balls cost $30.  Are the RBZ balls twice as good?  No.  Why the premium?  It's the name stamped on the side.  

 

Quote

Okay. What if somebody doesnt want hand me down garbage outdated equipment. Just because you did it doesnt mean everyone else has to. You only did that because you had no other option.

 

I could get a set of Burner or R7 irons, a Burner driver, some old wedges and a putter for under $400 and be on my way.  It would be a full set and reasonable quality.  10 year old clubs aren't garbage outdated equipment.  Nobody says you must start out with clubs from the 80s.  It's not as if you're pulling up with your dad's set of Pro Staff blades with the black and green corded grips that they'll immediately throw in the basement and never touch again for 10 years.

Edited February 10, 2022 by amace04

[akronswitness]

23 hours ago, vallygolf said:

Name the 3.

 

Valley View, Rosemont Country Club, Brandywine and Barberton Brookside---sorry, there was actually 4 all within a 15 mile radius.

 

https://northernohio.golf/rosemont-closes/

https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/news/local/2020/11/23/former-brandywine-country-club-golf-course-become-part-cuyahoga-valley-national-park/6393356002/

https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/news/2020/12/13/planned-development-norton-golf-course-riles-some-nearby-residents/6498702002/

https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/news/local/2020/07/21/work-continues-to-transform-former-akron-golf-course-into-park/42337295/

Edited February 10, 2022 by akronswitness

[Carl Spackler3]

We all have our own experiences. Here in Charlotte every single course is packed everyday all year. Everyone plays, there are no courses closing (1 bought out for insane dev project but 500 yards from another course). Our Country club is not restricting enough of music and dress, which we’re are trying to change, much to the approval of most members. So in my experience golf can get more traditional and not be hurt the slightest bit by those who seek music, tee shirts and the like if they stay home either private or muni