Artificial Turf greens

[dugue4]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the greens are the most expensive/difficult part of the course to maintain.  It seems like it could be cheaper and easier in the long run to turf the greens.  Would you be ok with a course with turf greens?  Would the masses? Thoughts? (I'm bored at work...)

[david.c.w]

Yes, as long as they react similar to real greens.  I can see it working for just putting, but what happens when you fire a 5 iron at the green and land perfectly?  Does it check and roll out 10 feet?  or does it bounce like it landed on concrete.

 

If it can do that, then theoretically it would be fine.

 

Of course in reality the greens would never be as good as they day they were installed.  Real grass can self repair, artificial turf cannot.  In the end the maintenance might even be more expensive on an artificial green.

 

Must be a slow Thursday for you 😄

 

Edit:  I don't think that greens are actually that bad to maintain.  Once you get them in a good state, you have to topdress, cut and roll, and that is it.  I think it actually takes less time than fairway mowing, bunker maintenance, tee mowing/edging, and way less time than fall leaf maintenance.

 

 

Edited February 24, 2022 by david.c.w

[amace04]

I'm just thinking of all the lumpy, poorly installed turf greens once the weeds and other crap starts to form underneath.

What about erosion? Water gets into the cup, water drains from the cup, creating hollow spots under the green.  Unless they're pulling them up monthly to repair underneath, I can't see this being a good idea.

What about animals?

There's one green at a local muni where a Fox made a den under a green last year.  Burrowed in from a greenside bunker.  They'd also dig up the green at night for grubs.   That can be repaired by transplanting some grass, rolling and it's good.  With turf? It's probably ruined.

[Abh159]

No

[JLaws_2929]

The problem with turf greens, as I understand it, is its possible to make them putt well, or receive shots well, but not both.  

[Hawkeye77]

Never.

 

Wouldn't perform satisfactorily and would be an expensive and constant repair/replace issue.

 

 

[ChxDigLongBall]

On 2/24/2022 at 9:48 AM, david.c.w said:

Edit:  I don't think that greens are actually that bad to maintain.  Once you get them in a good state, you have to topdress, cut and roll, and that is it.  I think it actually takes less time than fairway mowing, bunker maintenance, tee mowing/edging, and way less time than fall leaf maintenance.

 

 

Please tell me that you don't really believe that top-dressing, cutting and rolling are the only 3 essential practices to keep greens in good, playable shape?

[CCTxGolf]

For someone in the know, and I’m sure it’s different in different places, but very broadly, what is the most expensive part of a golf course to maintain? Bunkers, greens, tee’s….?

 

I know down in south Texas we rarely have crazy rain events but over the last couple years it seems like our bunkers have been washed out and damaged on a monthly basis, spring through summer. that can’t be cheap.

 

all the green specific equipment has got to be costly.

 

anyway, just generally what is most expensive price of a golf course?

 

thanks.

[Dancin]

If you can grow grass and don't have insanely expensive water, natural will always be cheaper than artificial.

[david.c.w]

15 hours ago, ChxDigLongBall said:

Please tell me that you don't really believe that top-dressing, cutting and rolling are the only 3 essential practices to keep greens in good, playable shape?

 

Disclaimer:  Bermuda greens in Georgia.  We dumped the bent 8 years ago. 

 

Yes I somewhat over generalized.  My point is that the greens are not the highest maintenance or financial category on a DAILY basis.  There is a lot more time and effort going into overall mowing, irrigation repair, bunkers, and overall general maintenance.

 

As chair of our grounds committee, I know near zero about agronomy.  But I do spend a lot of time with our superintendent asking questions and understanding his process.  When he needs something or has an issue, it is never about the greens.  

 

If you have Poa or Bent, may be a different issue, but Bermuda in the south in the heat?  Dollars and manpower is generally elsewhere.

 

 

[GowerND11]

Going to be tough to get different pin placements, and even tougher if you do to keep the insert flush with the rest of the green when you cover a hole. 

 

Also, if you don't rotate the cups, and even if you do in fairness, grooves will eventually form in the artificial turf over time. 

[ChxDigLongBall]

On 3/4/2022 at 7:36 AM, david.c.w said:

 

Disclaimer:  Bermuda greens in Georgia.  We dumped the bent 8 years ago. 

 

Yes I somewhat over generalized.  My point is that the greens are not the highest maintenance or financial category on a DAILY basis.  There is a lot more time and effort going into overall mowing, irrigation repair, bunkers, and overall general maintenance.

 

As chair of our grounds committee, I know near zero about agronomy.  But I do spend a lot of time with our superintendent asking questions and understanding his process.  When he needs something or has an issue, it is never about the greens.  

 

If you have Poa or Bent, may be a different issue, but Bermuda in the south in the heat?  Dollars and manpower is generally elsewhere.

 

 

I'm the Head Golf Professional at a private club in MS with Bermuda greens.

 

The discussion wasn't how much else there is to maintain on a golf course. It was about there only being three things that you need to do to maintain greens, which is not true whatsoever.

 

Good talk.

[StudentGolfer4]

On 3/3/2022 at 6:13 PM, CCTxGolf said:

For someone in the know, and I’m sure it’s different in different places, but very broadly, what is the most expensive part of a golf course to maintain? Bunkers, greens, tee’s….?

 

I know down in south Texas we rarely have crazy rain events but over the last couple years it seems like our bunkers have been washed out and damaged on a monthly basis, spring through summer. that can’t be cheap.

 

all the green specific equipment has got to be costly.

 

anyway, just generally what is most expensive price of a golf course?

 

thanks.

maybe @BNGL will chime in on this. He is the resident expert. 

[BNGL]

On 3/4/2022 at 8:36 AM, david.c.w said:

 

Disclaimer:  Bermuda greens in Georgia.  We dumped the bent 8 years ago. 

 

Yes I somewhat over generalized.  My point is that the greens are not the highest maintenance or financial category on a DAILY basis.  There is a lot more time and effort going into overall mowing, irrigation repair, bunkers, and overall general maintenance.

 

As chair of our grounds committee, I know near zero about agronomy.  But I do spend a lot of time with our superintendent asking questions and understanding his process.  When he needs something or has an issue, it is never about the greens.  

 

If you have Poa or Bent, may be a different issue, but Bermuda in the south in the heat?  Dollars and manpower is generally elsewhere.

 

 

Are you not watering the Bermuda in the heat? Are you not spraying for disease and fungus? because you can get disease from being too dry just as you can from being too wet. What about the foliar and Fert applications? Just because you have Bermuda greens in the heat doesn't mean that you're set. Every single day I read dumber and dumber posts on this site its unbelievable, and then its justified with this quote which I always love, "as chair of our grounds committee[...]" 

[BNGL]

14 hours ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

maybe @BNGL will chime in on this. He is the resident expert. 

 

On 3/3/2022 at 6:13 PM, CCTxGolf said:

For someone in the know, and I’m sure it’s different in different places, but very broadly, what is the most expensive part of a golf course to maintain? Bunkers, greens, tee’s….?

 

I know down in south Texas we rarely have crazy rain events but over the last couple years it seems like our bunkers have been washed out and damaged on a monthly basis, spring through summer. that can’t be cheap.

 

all the green specific equipment has got to be costly.

 

anyway, just generally what is most expensive price of a golf course?

 

thanks.

Speaking from a value standpoint, bunkers are literal money pits. Labor, sand, edging, repair, refilling bunkers with sand, fixing washouts, all stuff that no one is going to say,

 

"played Raindance Golf Club the other day" 

 

"Oh yeah?! How was it???"

 

"Well the course was ok, but the bunkers were fantastic!"

 

Get my point? While bunkers are important there is not much "return" now if the bunkers absolutely suck then golfers will notice. 

 

Here is a great article from the USGA detailing costs of course maintenance, granted it is very general overview and no concrete numbers but it touches on almost every issue superintendents think about when creating budgets

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/course-care/major-articles/2017/the-economics-of-golf-course-maintenance.html

 

[BNGL]

 

duplicate post 

Edited March 6, 2022 by BNGL
duplicate

[BNGL]

On 3/3/2022 at 8:26 PM, Dancin said:

If you can grow grass and don't have insanely expensive water, natural will always be cheaper than artificial.

 

lol no. Artificial requires a much much higher initial investment. But over the lifetime of the green (natural or artificial) the cost will be drastically lower on the artificial. Think about it, you don't have to cut it, you don't have to water it, you don't have to fertilize it, you don't have to treat it for bugs, you don't have to treat diseases, you don't have to edge it, you don't have to worry about losing the green edge (different from edging). Artificial is more expensive up front, but cheaper over the lifetime. 

 

We put synthetic in a lot of club lawns, and one of the reports that we did concluded that it costs us about 24k per year to maintain the natural lawns around the property. Artificial came in under 5k (once the installment costs were covered, which they were under capital expenses). You do still have to work on it, but it was taken care of by the installing company, they had to sand it and brush it, occasionally the base would bulge or depress due to surrounding irrigation (not their fault). 

[Dancin]

I just don't believe the quoted "lifetimes" for artificial are realistic under actual use. I'm guessing they look like s*** in half the time.

[david.c.w]

14 hours ago, BNGL said:

Are you not watering the Bermuda in the heat? Are you not spraying for disease and fungus? because you can get disease from being too dry just as you can from being too wet. What about the foliar and Fert applications? Just because you have Bermuda greens in the heat doesn't mean that you're set. Every single day I read dumber and dumber posts on this site its unbelievable, and then its justified with this quote which I always love, "as chair of our grounds committee[...]" 

 

Go ahead and install artificial greens then.  I am sure you will be a hero.   So much money saved!

 

This is a stupid thread.

[david.c.w]

14 hours ago, BNGL said:

Are you not watering the Bermuda in the heat? Are you not spraying for disease and fungus? because you can get disease from being too dry just as you can from being too wet. What about the foliar and Fert applications? Just because you have Bermuda greens in the heat doesn't mean that you're set. Every single day I read dumber and dumber posts on this site its unbelievable, and then its justified with this quote which I always love, "as chair of our grounds committee[...]" 

 

Tell us what percentage of your materials cost and labor go toward your greens. 

 

My point is that the grees are not 75% of the budget.  Anyone who thinks that all the superintendents do is take care of the greens is dumb.   The entire property needs care and attention. 

 

 

[BNGL]

 

9 hours ago, Dancin said:

I just don't believe the quoted "lifetimes" for artificial are realistic under actual use. I'm guessing they look like s*** in half the time.

Yeah I was skeptical too, but I stopped by the club on Sunday after I left the Honda and the areas that we did in 2016/2017 still look as good as the day they were installed. I will say this though, it gets HOT in the summer time, there's a good 5/10 degree difference in temperature around all those artificial areas. But the club is closed in the summer time so members don't ever experience it

[BNGL]

8 hours ago, david.c.w said:

 

Tell us what percentage of your materials cost and labor go toward your greens. 

 

My point is that the grees are not 75% of the budget.  Anyone who thinks that all the superintendents do is take care of the greens is dumb.   The entire property needs care and attention. 

 

 

I don't think anyone on this board has ever suggested that? I could be mistaken. Generally speaking the biggest line item in a golf course maintenance departments budget is labor, typically accounts for half. I don't know of many courses that have line items specifically for greens maintenance, but regardless of your past claim stating that greens "aren't the highest maintained areas" you're wrong, greens are the highest maintained areas at any golf club, besides maybe the tennis courts if you have clay, or the croquet lawns. Just simply go look at them, you can clearly see the difference in height and hopefully quality of the turf stand. The mower setting can not be a smidge off (it always will be off by a little bit on fairways (.005 inches plus or minus from reel to reel or other riders), the bed knife angle has to be just right (slightly different bedknife than on fairways or triplexes, tournament bedknifes which are thinner and don't last as long).

 

But If am wrong which is completely possible, it does not happen not typically on this site, but it might happen. In that event I would LOVE to talk with your superintendent and pick his brain, because he is truly revolutionizing the industry and to be quite frank I am jealous as all get out that all he had to do was install Bermuda grass greens...I wish I had known that when I was working 

Edited March 7, 2022 by BNGL

[Night Putting]

Broadlees Golf over in Scotland opened up an artificial turf(tees/greens) 9 hole par 3 course. I love the idea and have been very interested in seeing how it holds up and if it would be feasible to do something like that and what the up front cost would be.