Driver Offset (Question)

[Exactice808]

Hey GolfWRX I have a weird question, that I cant for the life of me explain to myself.

 

I generally understand the point of offset for the most part, but Then you reach woods and then I get confused.

 

As Irons get longer, there is generally more offset added right?  LW compared to a 4iron.  4iron generically being the longest iron (2 & 3 iron in my opinion become exotic)  Modern blades 4iron is 24* and modern GI can be 21* or even stronger.  BUT with modern GI's to SGI the offset gets even stronger.

 

Then you reach a wood.  Is it safe to say there is no offset or even negative offset as the face actually is In front of the shaft line?  compared to a 4iron where the face is behind the shaft line?

 

 

Driver

 

Offset generally aids in face closer?  So as irons get longer the increase offset helps face closer, yet once you hit woods its the opposite, yet many and myself included slice the ball. Could this "Negative" offset be the reason.  Why not continue the offset like irons through woods?

 

I have for my wife and daughter the OLD Cobra offset drivers  Sorry I dont have it with me,  But like below

 

 

What am I missing about manufactures not following the progression in irons of offset and going to a straight face or a negative offset in woods?

Thanks! this has been bugging me LOL

 

 

 

 

[RogerinNewZealand]

56,57 degrees is the spec i look for vs 59,60 degree lie on lots of JDM stuff. Your g410 pics are best example as the 22 hybrid with flat lie is anti hook uphill for me.The slicers need to solve the swing issue with a neutral club.Not a eg Cobra offset club.Less offset to me Looks Good. Brought up in the Mega Offset 1990s.....

[Stuart_G]

19 hours ago, Exactice808 said:

Offset generally aids in face closer? 

 

Not really.   for some individuals it adds a tiny bit of loft and a tiny bit of face closure but it's not really all that significant - especially the face closer.   For irons it's almost 99% a visual 'thing' and how it affects the stance, set-up, grip, and even just the level of confidence in the player.

 

 

19 hours ago, Exactice808 said:

yet once you hit woods its the opposite, yet many and myself included slice the ball. Could this "Negative" offset be the reason. 

 

No.  And for the sake of trivia - it's called 'onset'.

 

19 hours ago, Exactice808 said:

Why not continue the offset like irons through woods?

 

Because the theoretical aspect of adding offset in irons is not about the offset itself or the relationship between the shaft and face.  It's all about the movement of the head c.g. behind the shaft plane.   It's that location of the head c.g. relative to the shaft plane that produces the theoretical benefits (more rearward c.g. means potentially more forward bend of the shaft at impact).  

 

For most irons, the c.g. would be inline with the shaft (or very close to it) if it didn't have any offset.  For woods and drivers and hybrids, the c.g. is already well behind the shaft plane even w/o any offset of the face relative to the shaft.

 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Stuart_G

[Exactice808]

45 minutes ago, RogerinNewZealand said:

56,57 degrees is the spec i look for vs 59,60 degree lie on lots of JDM stuff. Your g410 pics are best example as the 22 hybrid with flat lie is anti hook uphill for me.The slicers need to solve the swing issue with a neutral club.Not a eg Cobra offset club.Less offset to me Looks Good. Brought up in the Mega Offset 1990s.....

 

While Slice is generally a swing path and face to path relation, Assuming the misunderstanding of "Draw vs Fade" Bias, doesnt actually change the ball flight generally just gets the face further from the path to start it away from the movement. (ball flight laws blah blah)

 

Anyways 100% agree on the slicers need to fix swing issues.  But generally speaking I assumed offset (SGI's) Were a trick to mask this flaw, but aiding face closer.  Thus wouldnt offset help with a driver? 

 

will continue with Stuart's post 

[Exactice808]

2 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Not really.   for some individuals it adds a tiny bit of loft and a tiny bit of face closure but it's not really all that significant - especially the face closer.   For irons it's almost 99% a visual 'thing' and how it affects the stance, set-up, grip, and even just the level of confidence in the player.

 

 

 

No.  And for the sake of trivia - it's called 'onset'.

 

 

Because the theoretical aspect of adding offset in irons is not about the offset itself or the relationship between the shaft and face.  It's all about the movement of the head c.g. behind the shaft plane.   It's that location of the head c.g. relative to the shaft plane that produces the theoretical benefits (more rearward c.g. means potentially more forward bend of the shaft at impact).  

 

For most irons, the c.g. would be inline with the shaft (or very close to it) if it didn't have any offset.  For woods and drivers and hybrids, the c.g. is already well behind the shaft plane even w/o any offset of the face relative to the shaft.

 

 

 

 

 

THANK YOU!  This helps or clarifies my thoughts better.

 

Ok so if its 99% a visual thing why is it sold in the GI to SGI format? just curious in deeper thought of it. 

 

 

Gotcha and thanks for the correction didnt think of the name (Onset) LOL

 

That makes so much sense now about the CG placement. I now recall pictures (internet) of the CG position low and back and due to driver head designs this is its capabilities vs an Iron.

This makes total sense.

 

So to clarify in my mind,  As mentioned in the first response.  A slicer really needs to fix their swing to correct an out to in "path" obviously.  

The "offset" in general has a really negligible affect to face closer as I previously assumed or heard or whatever.

 

The Idea of offset is actually to move the CG further back to help in forgiveness.  makes total sense! 

 

last but not least, no wonder the "offset" drivers seem to be sold more as a "gimmick" then a mainstream offering.

 

Well that was an easy response Thank you Stuart as always!

 

Sincerely,
Exactice

[Stuart_G]

13 minutes ago, Exactice808 said:

THANK YOU!  This helps or clarifies my thoughts better.

 

You're welcome.

 

13 minutes ago, Exactice808 said:

Ok so if its 99% a visual thing why is it sold in the GI to SGI format? just curious in deeper thought of it. 

 

Not much to add other than club manufacturers do whatever they think will give them the most sales.  The designs evolve to satisfy what the majority want or think they need.

 

 

13 minutes ago, Exactice808 said:

So to clarify in my mind,  As mentioned in the first response.  A slicer really needs to fix their swing to correct an out to in "path" obviously.  

 

No equipment change can really "fix" a swing problem.  Some very poorly fitting equipment can cause swing problems or make existing problems worse.   e.g. Think of the low handicap player that says he "can't" stand playing heads with large offset.  

 

It can, however, in some cases lessen the consequence of swing flaws.    A 10 yard slice is a lot more manageable than a 20 yard slice 😉

 

Swing changes are the ideal but most am's don't have the time or dedication needed to make effective swing changes.  If swing changes were easy, we'd all be scratch in no time.   So instead they make the most out of what they have by getting what little help they can from the equipment. 

 

BTW, that's what fitting is really about - allowing the golfer to get the best out of what he has as a swing and making sure the equipment is not getting in the way or making things worse for the player.

 

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Stuart_G

[Pepperturbo]

Whether irons or woods, offset is there to help the face square up at impact.  A lot of good players like offset in irons, but not in woods.

 

And then there's my buddy who's a 17 index, he has woods and irons with lots of offset on all.   He's not going to take the time it takes to build a new swing.  He hits them "relatively" straight too, compared to his prior clubs which had minimal offset, it wasn't pretty.  He was fit into these clubs too, for the very reason above, trouble squaring the fast of all his clubs.

 

My experience with offset irons was back in 2015 when I bought 2-PW set of TM Rsi TP irons.  The mistake I made was not noticing how much offset they had.  It was way more than I was used to.  When notice, I figured I could adjust.  The clubs are nice looking (still have them.)  Anyway, after almost a year of trying the frustration won.  I couldn't adjust under pressure of a tournament or $$$ games.  I finally gave up and bought Titleist 716 CBs which had proper offset.  I play next to Zero offset 620 blades, and my hands don't need help squaring the face.  I hit the ball straight too, but work it both ways. 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Pepperturbo

[Exactice808]

18 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

You're welcome.

 

 

Not much to add other than club manufacturers do whatever they think will give them the most sales.  The designs evolve to satisfy what the majority want or think they need.

 

 

 

No equipment change can really "fix" a swing problem.  Some very poorly fitting equipment can cause swing problems or make existing problems worse.   e.g. Think of the low handicap player that says he "can't" stand playing heads with large offset.  

 

It can, however, in some cases lessen the consequence of swing flaws.    A 10 yard slice is a lot more manageable than a 20 yard slice 😉

 

Swing changes are the ideal but most am's don't have the time or dedication needed to make effective swing changes.  If swing changes were easy, we'd all be scratch in no time.   So instead they make the most out of what they have by getting what little help they can from the equipment. 

 

BTW, that's what fitting is really about - allowing the golfer to get the best out of what he has as a swing and making sure the equipment is not getting in the way or making things worse for the player.

 

 

Makes sense to me.

 

Its just funny, the other day I was looking down at my clubs with a little more thought....must have been the fresh Scotch I poured.

I had the Sub70 639MB but those just have too much offset for my liking.  So I have the 649mbs with lower offset which visually is appealing to me.  Thats when it got me thinking. I still carry the 639 4 & 5 iron and it has noticeable offset, yet I "seem" turn it over quite well.  (goes left)  but once I grab my 5wood, 3wood and Driver the ball flight starts to cut.

 

I will say I have fixed some swing issues that I say cut NOT slice LOL!.  But it just dawned when I looked down at my driver and say hey there is no offset or the face is in front of the shaft line,  Would "offset" help me get the ball going more left.... or Straighter.  But Alas, the offset is intended for CG movement. Which logically makes absolute sense.

 

Hell the Draw and Fade "bias" drives me nuts as I know it doesn't change the curvature of flight, but the starting point of the ball.

 

As you said,  10yard slice, vs 20yard slice,  well with a biased driver its still 20yard slice, but it just started 10yards further left, due to face bais to get the ball going more left. it still slices the same amount LOL!

Edited March 3, 2022 by Exactice808

[Stuart_G]

5 hours ago, Exactice808 said:

Thats when it got me thinking. I still carry the 639 4 & 5 iron and it has noticeable offset, yet I "seem" turn it over quite well.  (goes left)  but once I grab my 5wood, 3wood and Driver the ball flight starts to cut.

 

There is so many other specs that are more likely to have a noticeable effect on left/right ball flight control:  face angle (for woods - including the effect of hosel "loft" adjustments),  c.g. bias for woods,  playing length, shaft weight, swing weight, grip size, even shaft stiffness.

 

I'd just be careful about being premature in any  conclusions you might consider.

 

P.S. didn't you know?  Scotch is been proven to increase golf IQ  😁

 

 

5 hours ago, Exactice808 said:

Hell the Draw and Fade "bias" drives me nuts as I know it doesn't change the curvature of flight, but the starting point of the ball.

 

 

 

There is more than one type of left/right "bias" in the drivers/woods.   And keep in mind labeling a head as having a bias assumes center face contact - so things like the curvature of the face to help with off center hits is not really a bias characteristic of the head.

 

Most of the marketed left/right bias in driver's and woods is based around the toe/heel location of the c.g. and the influence on horizontal gear effect.  That will only effect curvature and not starting line.

 

Face angle is the other dominant source of shot shape bias in woods and it's a lot more complicated (subjective) on how it effects both the start line and the shot shape.  For those that are sensitive to face angle, it more typically effects both the start line and the amount of curvature.

 

The last is the lie angle - and that also effects both the start line and the amount of curvature.  Probably a rough ball park ~1/3 is direction, ~2/3 is added curvature.   It's not all that large of an effect but many OEM's still use it as a basis for the marketed bias of a head.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Stuart_G

[Exactice808]

32 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

There is so many other specs that are more likely to have a noticeable effect on left/right ball flight control:  face angle (for woods - including the effect of hosel "loft" adjustments),  c.g. bias for woods,  playing length, shaft weight, swing weight, grip size, even shaft stiffness.

 

I'd just be careful about being premature conclusions.

 

P.S. didn't you know?  Scotch is been proven to increase golf IQ  😁

 

 

 

 

 

There is more than one type of left/right "bias" in the drivers/woods.   And keep in mind labeling a head as having a bias assumes center face contact - so things like the curvature of the face to help with off center hits is not really a bias characteristic of the head.

 

Most of the marketed left/right bias in driver's and woods is based around the toe/heel location of the c.g. and the influence on horizontal gear effect.  That will only effect curvature and not starting line.

 

Face angle is the other dominant source of shot shape bias in woods and it's a lot more complicated (subjective) on how it effects both the start line and the shot shape.  For those that are sensitive to face angle, it more typically effects both the start line and the amount of curvature.

 

The last is the lie angle - and that also effects both the start line and the amount of curvature.  Probably a rough ball park ~1/3 is direction, ~2/3 is added curvature.   It's not all that large of an effect but many OEM's still use it as a basis for the marketed bias of a head.

Well! That is why I am hear to display my ignorance and ask the questions that I had "assumptions/preconceived notions" on LOL.

 

Well this pisses me off more or as personally I like zero offset.   But its hard with GI or SGI.  Lord knows I am not a scratch golfer and could use GI's or SGI's yet there really are no Cavity backs with minimal offset (budget in mind, money can buy anything)

 

My golf is Crappy enough to play blades yet still get around the course to beat my other crappy friends LOL!

 

 

[Billfitz]

6 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

Not much to add other than club manufacturers do whatever they think will give them the most sales.  The designs evolve to satisfy what the majority want or think they need.

That's not unique to golf club manufacturers by any means. Give the customer what they want, and more important what they're willing to pay for, whether they need it or not.

[Danieleken]

Hey guys! 
I am curious about cobras off set driver.
I love the look of the head with the offset.

I tried it out at a golf shop here, but unfortunately, they only had a R shaft.

My spin rate was about 4000 and swing speed about 110 mph

 

I have a hzrdus smoke black x stiff low spin and low launch shaft at home and thinking of putting this on a F max driver. Do you guys think it can help?