Private clubs & cart fees

[lefty1978]

I see no issues with cart fees since you can walk for no extra fees. I would have issues with a walking fee. I cart 4-5 times per month ($20 per at my club) and walk every other round. My club has a strong walking culture.

[caniac6]

I like the pace, and exercise benefits from walking. There are no walking restrictions at my club. If there were, I would reconsider my membership.

[scottaz]

My former club, which is built to walk, started a walking trail fee of $5 per. Mostly because the members who ride complained so often the walkers didn't kick in on cart fees. 5 per, even for someone who play 100 rounds a year, isn't much to complain about over 12 months. It's not enough revenue to help the club much, so I just found it annoying but the riders were satisfied. You can walk any time, any day, which most clubs around here don't allow. Cart fees are $17 per. Can't bring your own push cart but can rent one for $10. 

 

My current club had carts fees built into membership cost. You could walk before 11 on weekdays, after 11 on weekends.  Last year, dues went up but carts were no longer included. But you could do a trail fee for the year upfront, which was around $1500. Walking stayed the same ( no cost ) and you can bring your own push cart. Then this year, dues went up and they're doing away with the trial fee. Take a cart and it's $20 per round. Walking staying the same. In the end, they want more people to walk to keep the course in better condition and encourage membership to walk.  They also want less play and think this will chill out the members who play 150-200 rounds a year.             

[handyquacks17]

On 3/24/2022 at 4:15 PM, me05501 said:

 

Wow. I've never heard of anyone not liking Peyton. 🙂

you must have never been to new England lmao

[doubledub]

I've got no issue with cart fees but I do hate when I bring guests to one of my clubs where we play 36 a day minimum and sometimes need 3-6 more holes before the sun goes down. Next month when the bill comes I see cart fees for 45 or even 54 holes when we really just spun a few holes to settle a bet or to play until dinner. $36 cart fee each rider for every 18 will get your attention but they do let guests play more than 18 on one guest fee so that is nice.

 

Also, I'm probably in the minority but does anyone get sick of the constant cart upgrades and the corresponding price upgrades for carts? I feel like the cart manufacturers are just like car makers pushing unnecessary add ons down the markets throat. Go pedal, brake, bag straps and a cooler are all I need/want. Pretty soon they are going to have the wireless charging mats in the storage bins and heated and cooled cupholders and we are going to pay $100 cart fee.

[oneunderbogey]

45 minutes ago, doubledub said:

I've got no issue with cart fees but I do hate when I bring guests to one of my clubs where we play 36 a day minimum and sometimes need 3-6 more holes before the sun goes down. Next month when the bill comes I see cart fees for 45 or even 54 holes when we really just spun a few holes to settle a bet or to play until dinner. $36 cart fee each rider for every 18 will get your attention but they do let guests play more than 18 on one guest fee so that is nice.

 

Also, I'm probably in the minority but does anyone get sick of the constant cart upgrades and the corresponding price upgrades for carts? I feel like the cart manufacturers are just like car makers pushing unnecessary add ons down the markets throat. Go pedal, brake, bag straps and a cooler are all I need/want. Pretty soon they are going to have the wireless charging mats in the storage bins and heated and cooled cupholders and we are going to pay $100 cart fee.

 

Completely agree.  I don't need phone charger, GPS, speakers, etc.  I do love the new EZ-Go Elites with the automatic brake though.

[klebs01]

1 hour ago, doubledub said:

I've got no issue with cart fees but I do hate when I bring guests to one of my clubs where we play 36 a day minimum and sometimes need 3-6 more holes before the sun goes down. Next month when the bill comes I see cart fees for 45 or even 54 holes when we really just spun a few holes to settle a bet or to play until dinner. $36 cart fee each rider for every 18 will get your attention but they do let guests play more than 18 on one guest fee so that is nice.

 

Also, I'm probably in the minority but does anyone get sick of the constant cart upgrades and the corresponding price upgrades for carts? I feel like the cart manufacturers are just like car makers pushing unnecessary add ons down the markets throat. Go pedal, brake, bag straps and a cooler are all I need/want. Pretty soon they are going to have the wireless charging mats in the storage bins and heated and cooled cupholders and we are going to pay $100 cart fee.

Have you told the board you don’t value those features? Have you lobbied for more basic carts when the lease is up? 

[dcmidnight]

I absolutely love cart fees.

 

My club is a pretty flat course where a large majority walk, including seniors. Why would I want some kind of fee baked in to cover something I don't use?

 

If I use a cart, I'll happily pay for it. Otherwise, no thanks.

 

I'm happy to pay for the services I use but dont try to charge me for stuff I dont.

[Golferpaul]

On 3/23/2022 at 2:00 PM, jibbs1082 said:

Anything more annoying than per-round cart fees at private clubs? The nickel and diming is so tacky, out of principal

 

Just charge a flat maintenance fee to everyone or hide it in the annuals. Clearly clubs want people to use carts/dine etc.... they don't want people to show up walk 9 and leave. 

 

Just venting.... will never understand it. 

It's easy to understand.  By charging cart fees per round you have the people who use carts paying for carts.  If you charge an annual flat fee the golfers who play a lot are being subsidized by those who play very little.

[jibbs1082]

So I think a lot of people commenting took a pre-conceived notion of what my opinion is and what I was trying to say.

 

To start- I love walking. Walking is the purest form of golf. The most interactive with partners, the best way to "feel" and immerse yourself at a course. I would walk every round if possible.

 

I understand WHY clubs charge a cart fee. I understand how they run a budget. 

 

My POINT is... it's a delicate line - Clubs NEED the cart rev.... Clubs obviously want an engaged membership who use carts, eat in the clubhouse, purchase merch frequently. Etc. Etc.  The other walkers in this forum, who's hairs stood up about my statement that clubs don't like walkers who show up, gobble tee times, eat and drink nothing and buy nothing attempting to get per round value out of their annuals ... I am sorry, that is just fact. 

 

So with that said, why don't clubs just cut the difference on cart fees - estimate what their net is after maintenance and spread it amongst membership. I'd just like to see an all-in golf experience with the exception of f/b. I'm not going to cry about paying say $600 a year for cart inclusion and walking half of my rounds. If you are joining a club to count pennies, you already lost on your investment.

 

Edited April 5, 2022 by jibbs1082

[jibbs1082]

On 3/23/2022 at 7:47 PM, ND2005 said:

I know several clubs that have instituted a “walking fee” for those not taking a cart. 
 

 

 

Interesting. Goes to my point - just up the annuals.

 

On 3/23/2022 at 10:16 PM, JJFWebster said:

I would be interested to see if pace of play improved or worsened, after including carts in the dues. Anyone have data on it?

 

In a weird way I feel like pace of play slows with carts - two players in 1 vehicle, have to zig zag back and forth to each others ball. Walking each person just straight lines to their ball. I feel like there is SIGNIFICANLY more ready golf with walking only. Talking foursome obviously.

 

Best set up is walking with caddies from a time perspective.

 

 

[me05501]

55 minutes ago, jibbs1082 said:

In a weird way I feel like pace of play slows with carts - two players in 1 vehicle, have to zig zag back and forth to each others ball. Walking each person just straight lines to their ball. I feel like there is SIGNIFICANLY more ready golf with walking only. Talking foursome obviously.

 

Best set up is walking with caddies from a time perspective.

 

 

I agree completely.

 

I think carts should be a single-occupancy for this reason.

 

I'm not necessarily advocating for using the current style of carts with one player per cart (though that worked well enough during COVID). But a different size/style of vehicle designed for one rider would be better. 

[Bonneville85308]

53 minutes ago, me05501 said:

 

I agree completely.

 

I think carts should be a single-occupancy for this reason.

 

I'm not necessarily advocating for using the current style of carts with one player per cart (though that worked well enough during COVID). But a different size/style of vehicle designed for one rider would be better. 

 

Yes, one person per cart is definitely faster, and I'd like to see smaller, cost-effective, single-rider carts developed. My anecdote with this:

There are two guys who play regularly early in the morning at a course I frequent and are usually first off as a twosome with me teeing off 15-20 minutes after them walking solo. They are what I consider to be fast players. They both own their personal carts, which this course allows. For whatever reason, sometimes they both ride on the same cart, and sometimes they ride on their separate carts. When they take separate carts, they are faster than I am, I never wait on them, and they finish about 2-3 holes ahead of me. When they ride the same cart, they are considerably slower, I usually catch them around hole 7, they let me play through, and I finish a couple holes ahead of them.

[ND2005]

2 hours ago, jibbs1082 said:

The other walkers in this forum, who's hairs stood up about my statement that clubs don't like walkers who show up, gobble tee times, eat and drink nothing and buy nothing attempting to get per round value out of their annuals ... I am sorry, that is just fact. 

I have had a club manager directly tell me those are the members they are trying to squeeze out. They want engaged  members who are regularly spending money at the club “not the guy who walks on Sunday and buys one Gatorade at the turn then leaves”

Edited April 5, 2022 by ND2005

[jibbs1082]

20 minutes ago, ND2005 said:

I have had a club manager directly tell me those are the members they are trying to squeeze out. They want engaged  members who are regularly spending money at the club “not the guy who walks on Sunday and buys one Gatorade at the turn then leaves”

 

Precisely.

 

 

[dcmidnight]

 

3 hours ago, jibbs1082 said:

So with that said, why don't clubs just cut the difference on cart fees - estimate what their net is after maintenance and spread it amongst membership. I'd just like to see an all-in golf experience with the exception of f/b. I'm not going to cry about paying say $600 a year for cart inclusion and walking half of my rounds. If you are joining a club to count pennies, you already lost on your investment.

 

 

I still dont understand - why. Why are you OK charging people for carts who dont use carts. What about locker fees to people who dont choose to have a locker at the club? Or club storage fees? What about the pool fees/fees for kids events? So yeah I guess I am still dumbfounded that people are OK charging cart fees to people who dont use carts.

 

Sorry I just feel like you are really trying to mix two completely unrelated issues just to try and prove your point. 

I guess I'd say this - if your club is so desperate for funding streams that they need to charge cart fees to people who dont use carts - you really need to consider who is running / the overall finances at your club.

[jibbs1082]

9 minutes ago, dcmidnight said:

 

 

I still dont understand - why. Why are you OK charging people for carts who dont use carts. What about locker fees to people who dont choose to have a locker at the club? Or club storage fees? What about the pool fees/fees for kids events? So yeah I guess I am still dumbfounded that people are OK charging cart fees to people who dont use carts.

 

Sorry I just feel like you are really trying to mix two completely unrelated issues just to try and prove your point. 

I guess I'd say this - if your club is so desperate for funding streams that they need to charge cart fees to people who dont use carts - you really need to consider who is running / the overall finances at your club.

 

Unless you are a top 100, and I would probably even argue Top 50... your club is going to rely on Cart/ F&B/Merch rev.

 

If the club doesn't need the cart rev, why charge at all, other than basic maintenance (which could be) bundled in with general club maintenance (and not to be confused with grounds). If the club does need cart rev, then just flat rate it.

 

I guess perfect world in my mind: DO NOT charge for carts, period. If the club needs rev, increase annuals. Maintenance of carts rolls into general infrastructure maintenance. For example, there is probably a budget for the dining room chairs depreciation...at least in a well run club there would be. 

 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2022 by jibbs1082

[Bonneville85308]

1 hour ago, ND2005 said:

I have had a club manager directly tell me those are the members they are trying to squeeze out. They want engaged  members who are regularly spending money at the club “not the guy who walks on Sunday and buys one Gatorade at the turn then leaves”

 

LOL that was always me, except I usually brought my own Gatorade from home...

[knickerbocker]

If a club is not walkable, then carts should be included in the dues.

 

If a club is walkable, then carts should be optional with a daily or annual fee. 

 

I walk 50% of my rounds at my club and that works perfectly for me.  I also pay a fee to keep my push cart at the club and tip the bag boys to clean it.  It is not about the money.  I prefer to walk whenever possible. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by knickerbocker

[jibbs1082]

1 minute ago, knickerbocker said:

If a club is not walkable, then carts should be included in the dues.

 

If a club is walkable, then carts should be optional with a daily or annual fee. 

 

Reasonably prudent.

[vallygolf]

47 minutes ago, jibbs1082 said:

 

Reasonably prudent.

Walkable is relative to the walker.  Who determines who and what is walkable?  A Dr's note?  The same joes that do the slope?  The person paying the cart fee?  Two major pitfalls with baked in cart fees.

 

1. If the fee is baked in then the quality of the carts suffers.  The Club can easily justify a minimalist approach to the cart fleet as the budget just isnt there.... which we all know isnt the case, but the balance sheet just sees carts as a major expense.  In the case of a cart fee, the balance sheet loves the carts because one can see a definitive cost vs revenue.

 

2. As pointed out above, if you are going to include cart fees, then you better include everything course related (lockers, bag storage, etc)  otherwise you are penalizing a group unfairly.

[jibbs1082]

7 minutes ago, vallygolf said:

Walkable is relative to the walker.  Who determines who and what is walkable?  A Dr's note?  The same joes that do the slope?  The person paying the cart fee?  Two major pitfalls with baked in cart fees.

 

1. If the fee is baked in then the quality of the carts suffers.  The Club can easily justify a minimalist approach to the cart fleet as the budget just isnt there.... which we all know isnt the case, but the balance sheet just sees carts as a major expense.  In the case of a cart fee, the balance sheet loves the carts because one can see a definitive cost vs revenue.

 

2. As pointed out above, if you are going to include cart fees, then you better include everything course related (lockers, bag storage, etc)  otherwise you are penalizing a group unfairly.

 

I agree. Inclusive everything.

 

I realize walkability is arbitrary but I think there is some generalized common sense as to if a course is walkable, or cart-only.

 

Listened to a pod the other day with Gil Hanse talking about walking culture in europe vs. USA. Get rid of carts all together except for those who require it medically... and promote caddy programs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jibbs1082]

11 minutes ago, vallygolf said:

1. If the fee is baked in then the quality of the carts suffers.  The Club can easily justify a minimalist approach to the cart fleet as the budget just isnt there.... which we all know isnt the case, but the balance sheet just sees carts as a major expense.  In the case of a cart fee, the balance sheet loves the carts because one can see a definitive cost vs revenue.

 

Probably true until the membership votes to allocate funding from other areas. Similar to say a bunker program.

 

However, if we are talking about a club here that would move to inclusive cart fees 1) the membership probably is of the tier that would expect/demand quality carts 2) the funding would be appropriately disclosed annually.

 

For the sake of argument here I am talking strictly private clubs (not public or semi-private).

 

 

[vallygolf]

2 hours ago, jibbs1082 said:

 

Probably true until the membership votes to allocate funding from other areas. Similar to say a bunker program.

 

However, if we are talking about a club here that would move to inclusive cart fees 1) the membership probably is of the tier that would expect/demand quality carts 2) the funding would be appropriately disclosed annually.

 

For the sake of argument here I am talking strictly private clubs (not public or semi-private).

 

 

All the scenarios above relate to private clubs only.  Public is a totally different animal from a marketing perspective.  #2 is especially true at a private club, because balance sheet manipulation is far more necessary when you are running things through the board vs a public course where the patrons only vote is booking a tee time...or not.

[RoyalMustang]

I just got a statement from my club where I was charged several cart fees. The thing is, I walk 100% of the time.  

 

I asked for clarification and was told "unless you tell us you are walking, we charge you a cart fee".  20% of the people at this club walk.  WTF?  I have to tell someone that I am walking in order NOT to get charged?  What a joke

[RoyalMustang]

On 3/23/2022 at 3:00 PM, Abh159 said:

 

Maybe this is just YOUR club? Sure, all places would prefer if you spent more money, but every private club I've ever belonged too has had absolutely no issues with someone just wanting to walk 9 holes. Or walk 18 holes. Or walk 3 holes. That's sort of the point of being a member at a private club... 

 

Every private club I've ever belonged too has charged a cart fee if you ride. Also, all of them have offered an annual cart plan that those who rode a lot would opt into since it made financial sense for them. 

 

Personally, as someone who walks 50% of the time I prefer they have an additional fee to use a cart. In my mind it doesn't make sense to charge all members a cart "maintenance fee" when several of them have never even set foot in a cart. 

 

Yeah, I am going to walk 95%+ of the time (didn't take a cart once last year) and don't want to be charged for something I don't use.  The cart fee would increase my monthly dues by 40%.  

[RoyalMustang]

On 3/23/2022 at 9:16 PM, JJFWebster said:

I would be interested to see if pace of play improved or worsened, after including carts in the dues. Anyone have data on it?

 

I can tell you that 2 hacks in carts run a lot slower than 2 hacks walking.  

[Abh159]

30 minutes ago, RoyalMustang said:

 

Yeah, I am going to walk 95%+ of the time (didn't take a cart once last year) and don't want to be charged for something I don't use.  The cart fee would increase my monthly dues by 40%.  

 

Same for me, but it would only increase mine approximately 25%.

 

I feel like the OP's main argument is that if you're a member at a private club then you have plenty of disposable income and shouldn't care if you're paying more for things you don't use. However, I know plenty of people at my club who have enough money to buy the club 20x over if they wanted, and they would certainly not be happy about paying for someone else to ride in a cart. 

[jibbs1082]

Can we abolish carts except for medical issues like many top 100, and UK courses? Would end this argument : )

 

 

[david.c.w]

10 minutes ago, jibbs1082 said:

Can we abolish carts except for medical issues like many top 100, and UK courses? Would end this argument : )

 

 

 

Would you like to single-handedly kill the golf industry?  Because that will do it.