High Launch/Descent vs Spin

[A.Princey]

I’ve found really good performance playing cheaper low spin balls, with SGI clubs and high launching shafts. Performance is even there on tough courses with firm/fast greens because the descent angle is better than most anything else. It’s even playable for me in simulation games, where greens aren’t as receptive as IRL, very predictable and anticipated.
 

The only drawback is short-sided chips, but even then, a little more thought on the landing area is all I need to get a decent result.
 

I don’t think I could go back to urethane anymore, the consistency and straight flight is too helpful in almost every way.

[Yrrdead]

I get the higher launch , increased descent angle SGI thing but I'm not sure that I would agree that low spin = straight. I'm no golf scientist but I'm pretty sure that's not correct.

 

That being said , you are the low single digit so you do you.

[Jc0]

11 hours ago, Yrrdead said:

I get the higher launch , increased descent angle SGI thing but I'm not sure that I would agree that low spin = straight. I'm no golf scientist but I'm pretty sure that's not correct.

 

That being said , you are the low single digit so you do you.

 

Low spin does equal straight. The only reason a ball curves is because of the pressure differential on the sides of the ball caused by off axis spin. Less spin means less side pressure, so less curve.

[ShupeSC]

9 minutes ago, Jc0 said:

 

Low spin does equal straight. The only reason a ball curves is because of the pressure differential on the sides of the ball caused by off axis spin. Less spin means less side pressure, so less curve.

That is not how a golf shot works lol… please understand ball flight before you give advice.

[bomberman]

Yeah generally higher spin is straighter. It is why higher lofted clubs are more accurate.

 

With strong lofted power irons a high launch high spin ball can be beneficial, like the prov1x. Though price can be a factor, cheaper balls like the Kirkland could fit.

 

I am a bit snobby and don't really consider ionomer balls "golf" balls. 

[Jc0]

44 minutes ago, ShupeSC said:

That is not how a golf shot works lol… please understand ball flight before you give advice.

 

You want to explain then? All things being equal a ball that is spinning more will curve more. Yes things like axis tilt will affect curve as well, but that is not the question here, it's purely low vs high spin. 

 

17 minutes ago, bomberman said:

Yeah generally higher spin is straighter. It is why higher lofted clubs are more accurate.

 

With strong lofted power irons a high launch high spin ball can be beneficial, like the prov1x. Though price can be a factor, cheaper balls like the Kirkland could fit.

 

I am a bit snobby and don't really consider ionomer balls "golf" balls. 

 

This is a miss conception. High spin does not mean straighter, higher spin just usually corealates with less distance. The shorter a ball goes the less time it has to curve offline so people perceive them as being more accurate, when it reality it's just going shorter. Additionally, because ball speeds are slower there is less of an effect on curve. The faster the ball is going the larger the effect side spin has on the ball ball flight. 

[Yrrdead]

I'm no physics professor but curve is based on axis tilt in relation to spin. As I understand it as spin goes up it takes more and more axis tilt to curve said ball. So I've always thought of ball curvature as a ratio of  Axis Tilt/Backspin  .

 

Again I could be mistaken.

[Jc0]

21 minutes ago, Yrrdead said:

I'm no physics professor but curve is based on axis tilt in relation to spin. As I understand it as spin goes up it takes more and more axis tilt to curve said ball. So I've always thought of ball curvature as a ratio of  Axis Tilt/Backspin  .

 

Again I could be mistaken.

 

So axis tilt is just how much of the spin is side spin vs total spin. So if you had 1000 rpm total spin with 10 degree axis tilt that means you have effectively 170 rpms side spin. That's one aspect of it but it didn't actually take into account what actually causes the ball to curve. Relating it back to the Ops question, if you were to then pick a ball that only gets 800 rpms of spin that would reduce the side spin to 136 so you would have less side spin.

 

Why is this important. What causes a ball to curve is the air is the pressure differential between the sides of the ball. In a perfect vacuum a ball would not curve because there would be no air pressure. It's the same reason you get less curve at higher elevation. Because you have side spin this causes higher pressure on one side of the ball vs the other. The ball will want to travel towards the path of lower pressure, so the ball curves in the air. The large the pressure differential the larger the curve. Increased ball speed and spin will increase this pressure differential. If you look at the equation for dynamic pressure, it uses velocity squared, which means the at higher velocities the effect on pressure is greater. By lowering the overall spin, you lower the amount of side spin and pressure generated on the ball so it will curve less, if you have two balls with the same axis tilt.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[A.Princey]

Lower compression too. Dimple design  is interesting argument too. 
 

I wonder why balata curved so much???

 

If a ball is easier to intentionally curve, does it inherently curve more on all shots??? Discuss.

Edited March 26, 2022 by A.Princey

[Striker Ace]

Just hit the dam ball the way that you should hit said ball. 😉

 

You're welcome 😊 

[Rocky Ball-boa]

19 hours ago, A.Princey said:

I’ve found really good performance playing cheaper low spin balls, with SGI clubs and high launching shafts. Performance is even there on tough courses with firm/fast greens because the descent angle is better than most anything else. It’s even playable for me in simulation games, where greens aren’t as receptive as IRL, very predictable and anticipated.
 

The only drawback is short-sided chips, but even then, a little more thought on the landing area is all I need to get a decent result.
 

I don’t think I could go back to urethane anymore, the consistency and straight flight is too helpful in almost every way.

 

I have a very high and weak ball flight, windy days are horrible (and most days are windy).

Down-wind, 220 yds j4 - into the same wind going back the next hole; 165 yds. It's insanely annoying. I do have something resembling a "knock-down shot" in my arsenal, but it's not pretty and it doesn't feel natural or controllable at all. On the plus side, I can hold the smallest, hardest green with a 2 iron 😆

If wind isn't as much of a factor for you, then go for it, whatever works!

[Jc0]

3 hours ago, A.Princey said:

Lower compression too. Dimple design  is interesting argument too. 
 

I wonder why balata curved so much???

 

If a ball is easier to intentionally curve, does it inherently curve more on all shots??? Discuss.

 

Balatas curved so much because they spun more and the aero wasn't as good. Here is a good test that shows it. Balatas are almost 1000 rpm higher on all cases.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/golf.com/gear/robot-testing-modern-equipment-balata-ball-results/%3famp=1

[Jeff58]

9 hours ago, Jc0 said:

 

Low spin does equal straight. The only reason a ball curves is because of the pressure differential on the sides of the ball caused by off axis spin. Less spin means less side pressure, so less curve.

You would be theoretically correct if the dimple patterns were the same and gyroscopic effect was negligible, both of which are not correct.

Low spin balls need higher lift/drag patterns to keep them airborne, and the secondary effect is that any potential change in pressure is rendered moot.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Jeff58

[A.Princey]

I still believe if a ball is easier to shape shots with, then so to will it more easily go crooked under less user error. This has to hold true, no?

 

Some day I’m going to take a bunch of urethane and surlyn to the range and hit the most exaggerated shots, in both directions, and declare a loser in the offline argument.

Edited March 27, 2022 by A.Princey

[Striker Ace]

1 hour ago, A.Princey said:

I still believe if a ball is easier to shape shots with, then so to will it more easily go crooked under less user error. This has to hold true, no?

 

Some day I’m going to take a bunch of urethane and surlyn to the range and hit the most exaggerated shots, in both directions, and declare a loser in the offline argument.

Why not just hit them straight with the long iron and see which ones tends to go in either direction since this subject seems to correspond to the one dimensional golfer anyway?

[chadly643]

This debate comes up sort of on a regular schedule. I wish someone with an advanced m degree in this type of science would just lay it all out and put it to bed. Ian at txg in a video said spin makes it more difficult to tilt the spin axis so more spin = less curve. It’s difficult to wrap my head around because usually if I slice one it’s a spinny shot and if I hook one it’s the opposite. Both are curving a lot so which is the right answer?

[chadly643]

On 3/25/2022 at 10:24 PM, A.Princey said:

I’ve found really good performance playing cheaper low spin balls, with SGI clubs and high launching shafts. Performance is even there on tough courses with firm/fast greens because the descent angle is better than most anything else. It’s even playable for me in simulation games, where greens aren’t as receptive as IRL, very predictable and anticipated.
 

The only drawback is short-sided chips, but even then, a little more thought on the landing area is all I need to get a decent result.
 

I don’t think I could go back to urethane anymore, the consistency and straight flight is too helpful in almost every way.

I’d miss the spin around the greens the most. The grab on chip and pitch shots makes it so much easier to get the ball close. 

[A.Princey]

51 minutes ago, chadly643 said:

I’d miss the spin around the greens the most. The grab on chip and pitch shots makes it so much easier to get the ball close. 

I thought so too, but the rollout is very predictable. I’d occasionally get tons of spin with urethane and then randomly, out of nowhere, not so much the next time. I can still open up my lob wedge for good height if I need to stop the ball quick too, as needed, even with cheaper surlyn. Ymmv

[arbeck]

On 3/26/2022 at 8:55 PM, chadly643 said:

This debate comes up sort of on a regular schedule. I wish someone with an advanced m degree in this type of science would just lay it all out and put it to bed. Ian at txg in a video said spin makes it more difficult to tilt the spin axis so more spin = less curve. It’s difficult to wrap my head around because usually if I slice one it’s a spinny shot and if I hook one it’s the opposite. Both are curving a lot so which is the right answer?

The answer is neither. The amount of curve is caused by spin axis (assuming there is no wind). Spin axis is determined by two things: the face to path relationship and the spin loft at impact. You can hook a low spin shot or slice a high spin shot. If everything is equal and two shots have identical spin axis, the one with higher spin will curve slightly more. However the difference in the amount of curve would be almost imperceptible unless the two shots are 1000's of RPM apart in spin. On a full shot that's almost never going to happen. Most balls are only going to be separated by a few hundred RPM's at most. Even the highest and lowest spin balls you are likely to play are going to only be about 1000 RPM different.

 

Also, remember when I said if everything is equal? Also that spin loft helps determines the spin axis? As you decrease spin loft, the spin axis tilts more, EVEN IF THE FACE TO PATH IS IDENTICAL. For instance if two people hit a driver both with a face 4* open to the path, one of them is swinging down on the ball with a 12.5* driver, while the other is swinging up at the ball with a 6.5* driver, they will created VERY different spin axis tilts. The first player is delivering a spin loft of 14*. The second player is delivering a spin loft of 1*. The first player has a spin axis tilt of 15*. The second player has a spin axis tilt of 44*. That's a huge difference even though their face to path is identical!

 

Which of those two swings is going to produce high spin, and which is going to produce low spin? This is why spin is very often thought to make the ball go straighter. To get more spin, you need more spin loft. And getting more spin loft means that you tilt the spin axis less. This is why it is much easier to hook a wedge than slice a wedge. As you open the face you are adding more spin loft. And even though you might have a face very open to the path, the high spin loft keeps the spin axis tilt from getting too big. It's also why you can hook low spin shots so much. When you hook a shot with a low lofted club, you are most certainly decreasing the spin loft. If you have a 10* driver and swing up 2*, but on one swing you are 4* open to the path and the other you are 4* closed, the closed face shot will have less dynamic loft. This means there will be less spin loft, hence the spin axis will be greater. It will move further left than the other shot did to the right. This makes is seem like the spin is "stabilizing" the shot. But it's not. Everything comes down to spin axis.

 

I hope that made things a little more clear. The big thing to take away from this is that a low spin ball is NOT going to be perceptibly straighter. A 2000 RPM driver shot and a 2500 RPM driver shot are going to curve about 2 yards different (assuming 140mph ball speed). If you take the difference between a 2000 RPM shot 5000 RPM shot, it's going to be like 12 yards. But you aren't going to find a ball anymore that has that kind of spin difference. It's possible old Balata balls spun that much more off the driver, but I'd need to see launch monitor data with a balata ball that wasn't decades old.

 

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by arbeck
typos

[chadly643]

Awesome read. Thanks for taking the time to type all that out!

[Stuart_G]

On 3/27/2022 at 7:16 PM, arbeck said:

However the difference in the amount of curve would be almost imperceptible unless the two shots are 1000's of RPM apart in spin. On a full shot that's almost never going to happen. Most balls are only going to be separated by a few hundred RPM's at most. Even the highest and lowest spin balls you are likely to play are going to only be about 1000 RPM different.

 

I'm starting here because for the most part I agree with the point you're trying to make.  Although I'm not sure I'd agree with imperceptible.  Minimal in most cases might be how I worded it.   But that's really just a judgement call.

 

 

The bottom line is that any reduction in offline tendencies as it relates to spin management will practically ALWAYS happen as a result of less total distance traveled.    You can't get the forgiveness w/o giving up the distance and how much you gain from one will always be balance by how much you loose from the other.

 

So if you really want to make a noticeable difference in offline tendencies what you can accomplish with a ball or even a couple degrees of loft isn't going to make much of a difference.   If it's going to be a problem on a particular hole, just drop down and hit your 3wd instead of your driver.

 

 

 

 

 

But for the sake of the discussion - the way I see it, there are some gaps/flaws in your reasoning.  Or maybe you just left it a little incomplete?

 

 

On 3/27/2022 at 7:16 PM, arbeck said:

The answer is neither. The amount of curve is caused by spin axis (assuming there is no wind). Spin axis is determined by two things: the face to path relationship and the spin loft at impact. You can hook a low spin shot or slice a high spin shot.

 

 

I might word it differently.  Curvature is determined by the side spin - which is a result of both the spin axis and total spin (not just the spin axis).   And as long as you only look at the spin axis, you well never get a complete picture or understanding of what will happen to the ball flight.   There is a reason that scientists and engineers break down vector values into components.  It's a necessary step to fully understand the dynamics of the ball flight.

 

 

On 3/27/2022 at 7:16 PM, arbeck said:

If everything is equal and two shots have identical spin axis, the one with higher spin will curve slightly more.

 

The problem here is that all things will never be equal.   It would curve more (total offline distance) ONLY if the the hang time and ground speed were the same in both cases and therefore total distance traveled the same.  But if you change the total spin, neither of those will ever be the same.   So you really can't make any generalizations w/o going into greater detail of other aspects of the ball flight - like ball speed and launch angle.   Some cases it will curve more, others it will curve less. 

 

 

 

On 3/27/2022 at 7:16 PM, arbeck said:

For instance if two people hit a driver both with a face 4* open to the path, one of them is swinging down on the ball with a 12.5* driver, while the other is swinging up at the ball with a 6.5* driver, they will created VERY different spin axis tilts.

 

Just a minor nit-pick.   Just be careful about making assumptions about dynamic loft and therefore spin loft based on AoA.    For most ams, as they change AoA, Dynamic loft will go up as well and the spin axis wont change much.   It's generally only the high level players that can increase AoA w/o increasing dynamic loft.

 

 

On 3/27/2022 at 7:16 PM, arbeck said:

This is why spin is very often thought to make the ball go straighter. To get more spin, you need more spin loft. And getting more spin loft means that you tilt the spin axis less.

 

But that doesn't necessarily mean that the side spin and therefore the rate of curvature will be reduced.

 

 

On 3/27/2022 at 7:16 PM, arbeck said:

This is why it is much easier to hook a wedge than slice a wedge. As you open the face you are adding more spin loft.

 

If that were the case it would be true for all clubs, not just the wedges.   The wedges are different because there is a transition point as the loft increases that the normal forces are reduced to the point where less spin can be generated.   This happens somewhere between 45-50*    The same reason why the lower de-lofted pitch will spin and check more than the higher pitches.

 

 

On 3/27/2022 at 7:16 PM, arbeck said:

 

And even though you might have a face very open to the path, the high spin loft keeps the spin axis tilt from getting too big. It's also why you can hook low spin shots so much. When you hook a shot with a low lofted club, you are most certainly decreasing the spin loft.

 

It's very common but hardly dictated.  A change in face-to-path does not automatically mean a change in dynamic loft or spin loft - especially among high level players.

 

On 3/27/2022 at 7:16 PM, arbeck said:

If you have a 10* driver and swing up 2*, but on one swing you are 4* open to the path and the other you are 4* closed, the closed face shot will have less dynamic loft. This means there will be less spin loft, hence the spin axis will be greater.

 

But the side spin will be the same - just in opposite directions.   Which curves more will come down to which ball flight will travel further before hitting the ground.  And that's going to be determined by the launch angle, ball speed and backspin.

 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Stuart_G