Ball moved during search. Replace ball. Can I clean it?

[Augster]

I was searching for my ball in the rough and kicked it. I get to replace without penalty. Ball is covered in mud it’s why I didn’t see it. 
 

Do I get to clean it before replacing?

 

Thanks. 

[Mr. Bean]

No. See Rule 14.1c.

[Augster]

7 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

No. See Rule 14.1c.

I will thanks. Still on the course. 

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, Augster said:

I will thanks. Still on the course. 

 

 

Now THAT is one interesting request for a ruling !!! 😎

[Augster]

Okay, how about this from today….

 

I hit my ball in the fairway on the right. A guy I’m playing with, (outside influence, no match or anything), picks up my ball to ID it, cleans it a little, says, “It’s yours”, and sets it down about a foot away from where it was. 
 

Firstly, I was walking right for the ball, and we all knew his ball was on the other side of the fairway. So I have no idea why he was trying to “ID” my ball. Being helpful I guess?? 
 

Anyway, I have to replace my ball as it has clearly been moved. Also, I was close enough to see that the guy wiped a little mud off it while he “ID’d” it and set it down. 
 

What do I do there? 
 

The guy I actually had a stroke play comp with was beside himself when he saw me placing the ball in the fairway. 
 

I’m pretty sure I don’t have to try to recreate the mud on the ball. 
 

It all happened so fast. Is an outside influence or FC allowed to pick up and ID your ball without asking you? It was so weird. I still don’t know why my ball, lying on the right side of the fairway that we could see from the tee would need to be “ID’d” by someone besides me anyway. Unless he was looking for his ball. Which he wasn’t. It was so weird. 
 

So is this just a rub of the green or something? My friend I had a comp with was not happy. Moreso after I now had a clean ball, and ball in hand, and made birdie. We’ll never know what I would have shot, and I beat him by one stroke today. 
 

Thanks for any chiming in on this. 

Edited December 17, 2024 by Augster

[rogolf]

6 minutes ago, Augster said:

Okay, how about this from today….

 

I hit my ball in the fairway on the right. A guy I’m playing with, (outside influence, no match or anything), picks up my ball to ID it, cleans it a little, says, “It’s yours”, and sets it down about a foot away from where it was. 
 

Firstly, I was walking right for the ball, and we all knew his ball was on the other side of the fairway. So I have no idea why he was trying to “ID” my ball. Being helpful I guess?? 
 

Anyway, I have to replace my ball as it has clearly been moved. Also, I was close enough to see that the guy wiped a little mud off it while he “ID’d” it and set it down. 
 

What do I do there? 
 

The guy I actually had a stroke play comp with was beside himself when he saw me placing the ball in the fairway. 
 

I’m pretty sure I don’t have to try to recreate the mud on the ball. 
 

It all happened so fast. Is an outside influence or FC allowed to pick up and ID your ball without asking you? It was so weird. I still don’t know why my ball, lying on the right side of the fairway that we could see from the tee would need to be “ID’d” by someone besides me anyway. Unless he was looking for his ball. Which he wasn’t. It was so weird. 
 

So is this just a run of the green or something? My friend I had a comp

with was not happy. Moreso after I now had a clean ball, and ball in hand, and made birdie. We’ll never know what I would have shot and I beat him by one stroke today. 
 

Thanks for any chiming in on this. 

No Rules issue unless you had asked him to ID it (and then no problem with a slight cleaning to perform the ID).  Replace it at the estimated spot from which he picked it up.

Edited April 12, 2022 by rogolf

[Axiom]

 

On 4/9/2022 at 11:28 AM, Augster said:

I was searching for my ball in the rough and kicked it. I get to replace without penalty. Ball is covered in mud it’s why I didn’t see it. 
 

Do I get to clean it before replacing?

 

Thanks. 

Did you know it was your ball, even though it was covered in mud, or did you have to clean a section of the ball to identify it?

[Wham49]

no penalty for the move if you can explain that you were trying to identify it or locate it, but no cleaning

[Mr. Bean]

5 minutes ago, Wham49 said:

no penalty for the move if you can explain that you were trying to identify it or locate it, but no cleaning

 

Be careful, the correct answer has already been given and that is not yours.

 

Cleaning is permitted when it is necessary for the identification but no more.

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[Axiom]

On 4/9/2022 at 11:45 AM, Mr. Bean said:

No. See Rule 14.1c.

If Augster knew it was his ball even though there was mud on it, which exception under 14.1c would apply?

[Augster]

3 hours ago, Axiom said:

 

Did you know it was your ball, even though it was covered in mud, or did you have to clean a section of the ball to identify it?

Once I looked at the found ball I was able to ID it without touching it. 
 

I was asking about cleaning during the replacement. 

[Wham49]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Be careful, the correct answer has already been given and that is not yours.

 

Cleaning is permitted when it is necessary for the identification but no more.

 

I was assuming that they knew you can clean to ID, plus I take a state rules test every year and get a very high score so relax

[Axiom]

15 minutes ago, Augster said:

Once I looked at the found ball I was able to ID it without touching it. 
 

I was asking about cleaning during the replacement. 

In that case, none of the exceptions under 14.1c apply and the lifted ball could be cleaned.

[Newby]

17 minutes ago, Axiom said:

In that case, none of the exceptions under 14.1c apply and the lifted ball could be cleaned.

When you lift your ball from anywhere else it may always be cleaned except when you lift it:

• To identify it – cleaning is allowed only as needed to identify it.

Augster said "Once I looked at the found ball I was able to ID it without touching it." 

[Axiom]

43 minutes ago, Newby said:

When you lift your ball from anywhere else it may always be cleaned except when you lift it:

• To identify it – cleaning is allowed only as needed to identify it.

Augster said "Once I looked at the found ball I was able to ID it without touching it." 

Not sure what your point is. He has to lift the ball to replace it. The exceptions in 14.1c define when a player can't clean the ball.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Axiom

[Augster]

Whoa. That does put a different spin on it, my bad. 
 

My original situation…I am searching for my ball and accidentally kick it in the rough. It is partially covered with mud, that’s why I didn’t see it. 
 

I can clearly see, without touching the ball, that it is my ball. I have identified it as my ball. I now have to replace it. 
 

Now that I have the situation worded more correctly, do I get to clean it before replacing it?

 

Thanks for the help!

[Axiom]

50 minutes ago, Augster said:

Whoa. That does put a different spin on it, my bad. 
 

My original situation…I am searching for my ball and accidentally kick it in the rough. It is partially covered with mud, that’s why I didn’t see it. 
 

I can clearly see, without touching the ball, that it is my ball. I have identified it as my ball. I now have to replace it. 
 

Now that I have the situation worded more correctly, do I get to clean it before replacing it?

 

Thanks for the help!

Yes.

[jimbo123]

Seems kind of perverse that you get to clean your ball after accidentally kicking it.  I would have thought you can't, because I don't think you've "lifted" your ball in the sense in which Rule 14 defines lifting (though the whole topic of lifting confuses me).  

[Augster]

3 hours ago, jimbo123 said:

Seems kind of perverse that you get to clean your ball after accidentally kicking it.  I would have thought you can't, because I don't think you've "lifted" your ball in the sense in which Rule 14 defines lifting (though the whole topic of lifting confuses me).  

I am with you on that. Not only do you get ball in hand and a perfect lie, you also get to clean it? Seems odd. 
 

There isn’t really anything confusing about “lifting”. If the ball is in your hand it’s been lifted. It’s not in play. When it gets set back down, it’s back in play. 

[Newby]

6 hours ago, Augster said:

Whoa. That does put a different spin on it, my bad. 
 

My original situation…I am searching for my ball and accidentally kick it in the rough. It is partially covered with mud, that’s why I didn’t see it. 
 

I can clearly see, without touching the ball, that it is my ball. I have identified it as my ball. I now have to replace it. 
 

Now that I have the situation worded more correctly, do I get to clean it before replacing it?

 

Thanks for the help!

• To identify it – cleaning is allowed only as needed to identify it.

It has been identified by you. It can't be cleaned.

[jimbo123]

Apparently after a fan moved Phil Mickelson's ball in the PGA championship, he was able to clean it before replacing it.  That seems equally odd to me and I don't think it's exactly the same situation as accidental movement, but it's some evidence in support of being able to clean it in @Augster's case.  

[Mr. Bean]

This is actually a very interesting issue. Let us take three different situations:

 

a) I see my ball in the grass but cannot identify it as mine without lifting it. I may lift the ball and clean it only to the extent necessary to identify it (= complete cleaning is not allowed).

 

b) I accidentally move my ball while searching it and must replace it. I cannot identify it without cleaning it a bit. May I now clean it completely as I need to replace it?

 

c) I accidentally move my ball while searching it and must replace it. I can identify it without cleaning it at all. May I now clean it completely as I need to replace it?

 

Situation a) is clear but the question is whether the Rule 14.1c reaches those two others b) and c). Yes, a ball accidentally moved may be lifted as it has to be replaced but to me it would sound like circumventing the Rule if one may clean one's ball in b) and c) but not in a).

 

An outside influence moving one's ball is a different case as it has nothing to do with searching or identifying (Phil's case).

[Newby]

40 minutes ago, jimbo123 said:

Apparently after a fan moved Phil Mickelson's ball in the PGA championship, he was able to clean it before replacing it.  That seems equally odd to me and I don't think it's exactly the same situation as accidental movement, but it's some evidence in support of being able to clean it in @Augster's case.  

Was he identifying it?

I don't know when that happened but the the rule hasn't changed since 2019 (except that the old rule used more words).

Edited April 13, 2022 by Newby

[Newby]

17 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

This is actually a very interesting issue. Let us take three different situations:

 

a) I see my ball in the grass but cannot identify it as mine without lifting it. I may lift the ball and clean it only to the extent necessary to identify it (= complete cleaning is not allowed).

 

b) I accidentally move my ball while searching it and must replace it. I cannot identify it without cleaning it a bit. May I now clean it completely as I need to replace it?

 

c) I accidentally move my ball while searching it and must replace it. I can identify it without cleaning it at all. May I now clean it completely as I need to replace it?

 

Situation a) is clear but the question is whether the Rule 14.1c reaches those two others b) and c). Yes, a ball accidentally moved may be lifted as it has to be replaced but to me it would sound like circumventing the Rule if one may clean one's ball in b) and c) but not in a).

 

An outside influence moving one's ball is a different case as it has nothing to do with searching or identifying (Phil's case).

14.1 is about Marking, Lifting and Cleaning

14.2 is about Replacing Ball on Spot

 

They are independent of each other

 

Why does 14.1c exist if examples b) and c) allow you to clean the ball regardless?

Edited April 13, 2022 by Newby

[Colin L]

7 hours ago, Augster said:

Whoa. That does put a different spin on it, my bad. 
 

My original situation…I am searching for my ball and accidentally kick it in the rough. It is partially covered with mud, that’s why I didn’t see it. 
 

I can clearly see, without touching the ball, that it is my ball. I have identified it as my ball. I now have to replace it. 
 

Now that I have the situation worded more correctly, do I get to clean it before replacing it?

 

Thanks for the help!

 

I don't see Rule 14.1 applying to this situation.  The Rule is specifically about to the deliberate “lifting” of a player’s ball at rest, which includes picking up the ball by hand, rotating it or otherwise deliberately causing it to move from its spot.  [My emphasis].

 

You have accidentally moved your ball during a search and so Rule 7.4 applies.  That Rule is silent on the matter of cleaning your ball and, as far as can think, the Rules in general  are silent on the matter.  Consequently, in my view, you may clean your ball before replacing.

 

Edited April 13, 2022 by Colin L

[Newby]

25 minutes ago, Colin L said:

 

That Rule (7.4) is silent on the matter of cleaning your ball and, as far as can think, the Rules in general  are silent on the matter. 

 

Surely that is why 14.1c exists. 

The player has lifted his ball from the rough as 14.1 c specifies.

 

When you lift your ball from anywhere else it may always be cleaned except ..........

[jimbo123]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

This is actually a very interesting issue. Let us take three different situations:

 

a) I see my ball in the grass but cannot identify it as mine without lifting it. I may lift the ball and clean it only to the extent necessary to identify it (= complete cleaning is not allowed).

 

b) I accidentally move my ball while searching it and must replace it. I cannot identify it without cleaning it a bit. May I now clean it completely as I need to replace it?

 

c) I accidentally move my ball while searching it and must replace it. I can identify it without cleaning it at all. May I now clean it completely as I need to replace it?

 

Situation a) is clear but the question is whether the Rule 14.1c reaches those two others b) and c). Yes, a ball accidentally moved may be lifted as it has to be replaced but to me it would sound like circumventing the Rule if one may clean one's ball in b) and c) but not in a).

 

An outside influence moving one's ball is a different case as it has nothing to do with searching or identifying (Phil's case).

 

I think the Phil Mickelson case is nearly exactly the same as your (c).  There's no issue of identification in either case.  The ball is simply at rest but in a wrong place and needs to be replaced, in both cases.   And the question is just whether you are entitled to clean it because you lift it, in the process of replacing it.   So it seems pretty likely to me that you can clean your ball in (c).  

 

And although I agree that (b) kind of feels like circumventing a rule, it would also make no sense if you could clean it in (c) but not (b).  

[Mr. Bean]

18 minutes ago, jimbo123 said:

 

I think the Phil Mickelson case is nearly exactly the same as your (c).  There's no issue of identification in either case.  The ball is simply at rest but in a wrong place and needs to be replaced, in both cases.

 

The difference is that whenever you move your ball you are to blame if something unbeneficial happens. But when an outside influence moves your ball you have no control over what happens. Thus it makes sense that you may clean your ball as the outside influence may have caused your ball to be dirty.

 

All in all, IMO it would be so much easier if you could clean your ball every time you lift it. This case at hand is a perfect example of a situation in which a cautious player is not allowed to do what a careless player may. Not fair, IMHO.

[jimbo123]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

The difference is that whenever you move your ball you are to blame if something unbeneficial happens. But when an outside influence moves your ball you have no control over what happens. Thus it makes sense that you may clean your ball as the outside influence may have caused your ball to be dirty.

 

 

Are you stating what the rules are or what they should be?  I completely agree that distinction makes sense, but I can't find it written in the rules.   

[Mr. Bean]

8 minutes ago, jimbo123 said:

 

Are you stating what the rules are or what they should be?  I completely agree that distinction makes sense, but I can't find it written in the rules.   

 

It is not written that way anywhere in the Rules, it is just my idea of why the Rule is what it is. If you have no control over things you are not supposed to suffer from it but if you f**k up by yourself you are to blame. Sometimes you get out of it with no harm done, sometimes you do not.