The corrosive effect of “gimmies”

[2bGood]

On 4/17/2022 at 7:20 AM, MtlJeff said:

I'd love to see a guy that shoots like 5 over his normal score "only" due to gimmes. How many gimmes does this guy take a round and from how far? Is he taking like 6 foot gimmes 10 times a round?

 

I've never really bought the argument that normal "in the leather" style gimmes cause a massive delta in score. You don't get a 3 footer on every hole, sometimes you might only get 2-3 a round, and statistically you'll probably make most of those in a tournament. I remember in my match play tournament last year i told our club captain i struggled on the greens and it probably was the difference in my loss, he was like "have you been taking gimmes this year"....i was like "yes, but what i meant was i missed a lot of 6-8 footers---what kind of gimmes do you think i'm taking?"

 

People shoot higher scores in tournaments because they are nervous and there is pressure in a game situation. I used to log my field goal attempts at the end of every practice when i was a college kicker (i would finish every practice by taking 30 FG's from various spots between 30-49yds). I averaged >90% for the season. My freshman year i think my in-game FG percentage was ~75% from all distances including chip-shots. It wasn't because of gimmes LOL, i was nervous

 

 

@MtlJeff I get your point. If you are playing true given putts. A bunch of holes you hole out from outside 'gimme' range. Then a bunch of holes you leave yourself a 6" or less putt (where a golfer might miss 1/5000 times.) So now you have maybe 2 or 3 - 12"- 24" putts that are given. A two foot putt has a 99% make rate on the PGA tour - they only miss it 1/100 times. Let's say the average golfer miss 10 times as many two footers or 1/10 times. If you have 3 of those a round you might go 3 or 4 rounds before you would have missed 1 putt. Of course if you missed that putt on one of the 12/20 rounds that did not factor into your handicap it does to matter. If you missed it one of your low 8, it would effect your handicap by 0.125 strokes. As far your handicap is concerned - meaningless. 

 

[ezpz]

I wouldnt even consider taking or giving when theres a scorecard involved. in casual rounds people can do as they please. I don't know how it can be so hard for people to just play by the rules of the game, I don't need to bring my excel sheet out to show 0.00001 strokes lost/gained over 1127832891 rounds due to gimmies. Its the rules, just make the thing hit the bottom of the cup...

[MtlJeff]

6 hours ago, 2bGood said:

 

 

@MtlJeff I get your point. If you are playing true given putts. A bunch of holes you hole out from outside 'gimme' range. Then a bunch of holes you leave yourself a 6" or less putt (where a golfer might miss 1/5000 times.) So now you have maybe 2 or 3 - 12"- 24" putts that are given. A two foot putt has a 99% make rate on the PGA tour - they only miss it 1/100 times. Let's say the average golfer miss 10 times as many two footers or 1/10 times. If you have 3 of those a round you might go 3 or 4 rounds before you would have missed 1 putt. Of course if you missed that putt on one of the 12/20 rounds that did not factor into your handicap it does to matter. If you missed it one of your low 8, it would effect your handicap by 0.125 strokes. As far your handicap is concerned - meaningless. 

 

 

Right this is exactly it, the math of how many of those types of putts you get, combined with even an average golfers make percentage, plus the 8 of 20 for handicaps, it's borderline negligible.

 

And for tournaments, scores are typically higher for a number of reasons. I've seen guys miss very short putts, heck i've done it. But rarely more than once or maybe twice in a round. And if we're talking like legit 2-footers, i can't recall the last time i saw a guy miss 2 in the same round in a tournament

[2bGood]

1 hour ago, MtlJeff said:

 

Right this is exactly it, the math of how many of those types of putts you get, combined with even an average golfers make percentage, plus the 8 of 20 for handicaps, it's borderline negligible.

 

And for tournaments, scores are typically higher for a number of reasons. I've seen guys miss very short putts, heck i've done it. But rarely more than once or maybe twice in a round. And if we're talking like legit 2-footers, i can't recall the last time i saw a guy miss 2 in the same round in a tournament

There is also what people compare themselves too. It was mentioned above, but shooting a few shots over you handicap is the norm to expect given how the system works and if you are a mid-high handicap it could be way over your handicap you should realistic shoot in a tournament. For handicap purposes most people can't take a 10 on a par 4. In tournament golf they sure can and do. I know...

 

I remember one event I -played in I made 3 bogie, 2 birds, 12 pars and 7 over. 🙄

[larrybud]

On 4/13/2022 at 8:28 PM, oikos1 said:

I thought the only way you can "give" or "get" gimmies is in match play.  If you are playing by handicap rules in stroke play, don't you have to putt out until reaching net double bogey?

For score posting purposes you would post your "most likely score". 95 out of 100 you're making the 2 footer.

Seems like an unwritten rule to putt out birdies.

[oikos1]

On 4/23/2022 at 7:42 AM, larrybud said:

For score posting purposes you would post your "most likely score". 95 out of 100 you're making the 2 footer.

Seems like an unwritten rule to putt out birdies.

Are you saying you give birdie putts when playing for something?  And when you say unwritten rule, is the written rule that you pick up everything inside of 5 ft for handicap purposes? 

 

I was under the impression "most likely score" for handicapping purposes only applied after you are out of the hole in match play and only after you tried your best to shoot a score in stroke play.  Getting birdie putts, no matter how short, doesn't sound like trying your best to shoot a score.

[StudentGolfer4]

I think some of you guys are getting too caught up on the word birdie. 
 

When I tee it up against my dad or best friend we are always playing for something small and bragging rights. If one of them hit a shot to 24 inches I am giving them the putt. (Within reason of course. We have all see 2ft puts that are downhill, sliding, into a clowns mouth, etc.) 

 

When playing against either of them my goal is to shoot my lowest score possible on every hole and beat them in whatever type of game we decided to play. Giving someone a putt for birdie has no affect on that. Heck, last year I gave someone a putt for eagle after their second shot came to rest about 6 inches from the cup. 

[straightshot7]

On 4/13/2022 at 11:29 AM, Yuck said:

We have all seen this before.  Have a tournament, and a substantial number of players (sans sandbaggers) shoot substantially higher than normal.

People say it is pressure or choking, but I think the way they play casual golf is a big contributor.  

 

Gimmies are fine for match play within a single foursome or less.  Both competitors / teams agree the hole is over and move on.  The problems come when gimmies make there way into stroke play games with multiple foursomes.  I have seen players give breaking 3 footers to themselves, or short putts missed, followed by the exclamation, “oh, that was a gimmie”.  This along with rolling the ball over, and mulligans or playing OB or lost ball as a lateral hazard all combine to create artificially low scores.  Those folks shooting 3-5 shots worse in competitions may not be choking at all,  Just the reality of what they shoot when playing be the rules.  If a putt is really “good” because it would be made 100% of the time, instantly tapping it in takes no longer than begging for a gimmie.   What really takes the cake, is when someone wants you to give a putt, you don’t, they miss and then blame you for their losing the hole.

 

Rant over.

There are definitely at least 2 different forms of golf...

 

Most people are not actually playing by the rules. That's fine, they can do whatever they want.

But, if they're not playing by the rules but still "posting" scores, that's where I get confused...

 

And the handicap rules are kind of a joke, imo---far separated from the realities of actual stroke play/golf.

Edited April 25, 2022 by straightshot7

[Augster]

I had a guy on my team yesterday that plays “fast” with the early guys. They regularly pick up putts for par or worse from 3-4’. When I’ve played with them, I putt everything out, but I’ve never seen them putt a 2 footer. 
 

Anyway, guy is on my team. Mens club event. He misses 4 putts inside 18”. We end up tying for 1st instead of 1st alone. 
 

Thought of this thread while he was missing his 2nd, 3rd, and 4th putt inside 2’ to further hurt our team. 🙂

 

 

[mshills]

Sucks that it hurt your team, but I laughed because of course it’s a speed-golfer not used to putting from 3’+. 
 

I’ll bet you got fussed at for putting everything out, too.  Can hear it now:
 

“That’s good, we don’t putt those short ones.”

 

”Thanks, but I do.”

[Augster]

12 hours ago, mshills said:

Sucks that it hurt your team, but I laughed because of course it’s a speed-golfer not used to putting from 3’+. 
 

I’ll bet you got fussed at for putting everything out, too.  Can hear it now:
 

“That’s good, we don’t putt those short ones.”

 

”Thanks, but I do.”

 It was a team Mens club event. Putt everything out. No matter how painful it is to watch. 🙂

[larrybud]

On 4/24/2022 at 10:46 AM, oikos1 said:

Are you saying you give birdie putts when playing for something?  And when you say unwritten rule, is the written rule that you pick up everything inside of 5 ft for handicap purposes? 

 

I was under the impression "most likely score" for handicapping purposes only applied after you are out of the hole in match play and only after you tried your best to shoot a score in stroke play.  Getting birdie putts, no matter how short, doesn't sound like trying your best to shoot a score.

 

I'm saying that if I'm playing in a group of guys for skins, for example, I'm not seeing anybody give birdies. But if I'm playing with a buddy a single's match play, I might give a birdie putt.

 

"most likely score" for handicapping applies any time you don't finish the hole.

[RCGA]

I seriously doubt putts inside 3ft have any noticeable impact on why scores are higher in tournament rounds. And if you have a habit of missing these, you're a non-factor anyway. 

 

I play a private course. Tournament rounds are almost always higher because:

• Greens stimp at least 1' faster vs normal play. Makes for a skittish 25 footer.  
• Every pin is in it's hardest location.
• Rounds are at least an hour longer than your used to. 
• People overthink every shot. 

[TwistedSister]

On 4/27/2022 at 9:15 PM, larrybud said:

 

I'm saying that if I'm playing in a group of guys for skins, for example, I'm not seeing anybody give birdies. But if I'm playing with a buddy a single's match play, I might give a birdie putt.

 

"most likely score" for handicapping applies any time you don't finish the hole.

I don't care if it is for eagle if someone has a 6 inch putt it is good. 

[jobin]

Here, on tournament days with 50-90 players, we use the friendly 'give circle'. The 'give circle' is a thin white chalk line about 20 inches from the center of the cup, all around the hole.

 

If your ball falls within the circle, pick it up and add one to your score. Speeds up play greatly.  All know the rules and ball must sit in circle, not merely hang over.

 

And on the par 3 holes, if the tee shot  falls into the circle, big $$ payout (at some events).

[StudentGolfer4]

2 hours ago, jobin said:

Here, on tournament days with 50-90 players, we use the friendly 'give circle'. The 'give circle' is a thin white chalk line about 20 inches from the center of the cup, all around the hole.

 

If your ball falls within the circle, pick it up and add one to your score. Speeds up play greatly.  All know the rules and ball must sit in circle, not merely hang over.

 

And on the par 3 holes, if the tee shot  falls into the circle, big $$ payout (at some events).

When I realized it was an actual physical circle I really really wanted to hate this idea. Then I remembered that half the groups are still out there giving putts anyway and this seems like a fantastic idea. 
 

Best part is, it’s the exact same for everyone and speeds up okay!? In a perfect world it’s not needed but we need to be realistic. 
 

How long does it take for the white circle to go away? As dumb as it sounds, it would bother me seeing it the next day or two. 

[Mudguard]

On 4/30/2022 at 11:24 AM, jobin said:

If your ball falls within the circle, pick it up and add one to your score. Speeds up play greatly.  All know the rules and ball must sit in circle, not merely hang over.

 

 

The issue I have with this is how long is it before some groups/players go, oh near enough to the gimmie circle? Just put it in the hole. 

[oikos1]

On 4/29/2022 at 6:03 PM, dhacker56 said:

I don't care if it is for eagle if someone has a 6 inch putt it is good. 

I've missed them , and I've seen plenty of others miss them.  When something is on the line, six inches might as well be six feet.

[mshills]

On 4/29/2022 at 7:03 PM, dhacker56 said:

I don't care if it is for eagle if someone has a 6 inch putt it is good. 

 

Eh, I'm definitely not 100.0% on these in my lifetime, so please let me putt out!

[djmohab2]

On 4/29/2022 at 4:24 PM, jobin said:

Here, on tournament days with 50-90 players, we use the friendly 'give circle'. The 'give circle' is a thin white chalk line about 20 inches from the center of the cup, all around the hole.

 

If your ball falls within the circle, pick it up and add one to your score. Speeds up play greatly.  All know the rules and ball must sit in circle, not merely hang over.

 

And on the par 3 holes, if the tee shot  falls into the circle, big $$ payout (at some events).

If you can't make a 20" putt, then I don't know what to tell you, except maybe to quit golf. How does that speed up play greatly? The extra 10 seconds it would take for the player to walk up and rap it in? Even if all four players used it every hole, that would save 10*4*18 = 12 minutes. Are you guys that hard-up for a pace of play improvement? I've always noticed the guys raking 4-6' putts and then get very upset when they can't make any of them in tournament play.

[Long_Left]

On 4/13/2022 at 12:29 PM, Yuck said:

We have all seen this before.  Have a tournament, and a substantial number of players (sans sandbaggers) shoot substantially higher than normal.

People say it is pressure or choking, but I think the way they play casual golf is a big contributor.  

 

Gimmies are fine for match play within a single foursome or less.  Both competitors / teams agree the hole is over and move on.  The problems come when gimmies make there way into stroke play games with multiple foursomes.  I have seen players give breaking 3 footers to themselves, or short putts missed, followed by the exclamation, “oh, that was a gimmie”.  This along with rolling the ball over, and mulligans or playing OB or lost ball as a lateral hazard all combine to create artificially low scores.  Those folks shooting 3-5 shots worse in competitions may not be choking at all,  Just the reality of what they shoot when playing be the rules.  If a putt is really “good” because it would be made 100% of the time, instantly tapping it in takes no longer than begging for a gimmie.   What really takes the cake, is when someone wants you to give a putt, you don’t, they miss and then blame you for their losing the hole.

 

Rant over.

90% of my golf is match play, won a match yesterday on this. Greens were running much quicker than "normal" and pins were in some VERY tough positions. Not the norm for the course mid week and combined with a decent amount of wind we had gotten fairly generous with the concessions. 18th hole I'm 1up and giving a stroke away, his 3 footer for par slid low and I won the match. This is against close friends for small but not insignificant money, and there is significant lack of "pride" for me in winning this way. But I grind out 3-5 footers on the practice green a LOT for the above reasons. Outside of my weekly game with buddies, all our competitions are Net Medal play, and the ball drops on every hole or you DQ.

 

 

[adamwittman]

On 4/13/2022 at 1:34 PM, Mudguard said:

It bugs me a bit, our club has tried pretty hard to stamp it out of the Saturday comps. But again, unless someone says something, like, oh it's a comp today, we have to finish out, then people don't change.

We have a similar issue with a short par four that has water right. You can hit driver straight at the green to knock it on, but it carries water the whole way. Same with anyone who lays up and cuts it. Most of the time you have to re-tee as a strong cut won't cross any land. Yet the number of times folks will walk 150m up the fairway and drop 100m out and go, oh it crossed about here?

I got the silent treatment once for making someone re-tee. 

Love making people re tee. 

[MountainKing]

On 5/3/2022 at 3:41 PM, djmohab2 said:

If you can't make a 20" putt, then I don't know what to tell you, except maybe to quit golf. How does that speed up play greatly? The extra 10 seconds it would take for the player to walk up and rap it in? Even if all four players used it every hole, that would save 10*4*18 = 12 minutes. Are you guys that hard-up for a pace of play improvement? I've always noticed the guys raking 4-6' putts and then get very upset when they can't make any of them in tournament play.

 

It speeds up play because in events, players are not tapping 20" putts in (or even 1 foot putts), they're marking the ball and grinding over the dang things as if it's a life and death situation.  This easily saves 2-4 minutes a hole which ends up being around an hour over 18 holes.  In a tournament play I'm not exactly sure I like the idea of a 20" gimmie, I think a better solution would be if you're in that cirlce you have to tap it in...can't mark it, can't take more than a few seconds, just gotta walk up and putt.  

[Mudguard]

3 hours ago, MountainKing said:

I think a better solution would be if you're in that cirlce you have to tap it in...can't mark it, can't take more than a few seconds, just gotta walk up and putt.  

 

The problem with a solution like this is that people mark for all kinds of reasons. A two footer straight up the hill, walk up and hit it. But then it's across a slope, you may have putted first in a fourball so you can't easily tap in without standing on someone's line etc. 

[StudentGolfer4]

5 hours ago, MountainKing said:

I think a better solution would be if you're in that cirlce you have to tap it in...can't mark it, can't take more than a few seconds, just gotta walk up and putt.  

What!? So I can’t mark my balk to avoid stepping in my opponents line because I’m inside of a cirice? Me standing 12 inches from the cup in front of it seems like a terrible idea for the next guy putting on the same line. And now I can’t mark my ball and take my time on a putt because someone says it’s too close? So if I miss that putt that I’m not allowed to mark does it still count as a miss? 
 

continuous putting is one thing but even then the ball is allowed to be marked. 

[MountainKing]

These last two posts are perfect examples of how the 20" gimmie circle does indeed save time on a round.  

[RCGA]

12 hours ago, MountainKing said:

 

It speeds up play because in events, players are not tapping 20" putts in (or even 1 foot putts), they're marking the ball and grinding over the dang things as if it's a life and death situation.  This easily saves 2-4 minutes a hole which ends up being around an hour over 18 holes.  In a tournament play I'm not exactly sure I like the idea of a 20" gimmie, I think a better solution would be if you're in that cirlce you have to tap it in...can't mark it, can't take more than a few seconds, just gotta walk up and putt.  

 

In a tournament I mark just about everything. Which means I go through my entire routine for a 16" putt (I missed these as a junior playing carelessly). Last year I don't think I saw a single person miss within 2ft in a tournament. 

 

The biggest problem with club tournaments is slow play. And the biggest time waster is having people do their song-and-dance within a 2ft circle.  

 

A painted gimmie circle would save at least 15-20min per group and have no impact on standings. 

[Imp]

On 5/3/2022 at 4:41 PM, djmohab2 said:

If you can't make a 20" putt, then I don't know what to tell you, except maybe to quit golf. How does that speed up play greatly? The extra 10 seconds it would take for the player to walk up and rap it in? Even if all four players used it every hole, that would save 10*4*18 = 12 minutes. Are you guys that hard-up for a pace of play improvement? I've always noticed the guys raking 4-6' putts and then get very upset when they can't make any of them in tournament play.

It slows things down when you have people that don't immediately putt out. They mark. Maybe others have to putt, maybe not. Meanwhile, they have to go to the other side, re-read, behind the ball, place, align... pickup ball marker... you know, payers that have a routine whether it's 20 feet to 20 inches. THAT is where time is added to a round, every putt, every hole. 

And yes, we are hard up for pace of play improvement. We had to uninvite one player to the league (tournament play every time) because of this. His routine on the green was lethargic, nuanced, and patterned. Every hole, every putt. By 5th hole, group in front was already one complete hole ahead. By 10, 2 holes. Etc... others would just walk off and hit next hole to keep up pace. He was just not getting it. Didn't matter who told him, "but I have a routine." "Fix/shorten your routine" never made it through to him, as he was locked into doing it every time.

Other slow putters (but still slightly faster) got the message and pick up their pace a little when they realized the group in front was making way faster than they were. 

Edited May 15, 2022 by Imp

[North Butte]

Those people who play two tournament rounds a year and shooting a combined 15 strokes over their handicap aren't just picking up putts the other 100 times a year they play with their buddies. They are also hitting two off the first tee, rolling them out of divots, taking free relief from tree roots and moving the ball out of footprints in bunkers. Many of them are also posting scores to GHIN that they played by themselves, hitting extra balls and raking back putts. 

 

Don't imagine it is all about not putting out from two feet. Unless it's a guy with the yips, the gimme thing is only going to vanity 'cap it a couple strokes at most. It's the other five strokes of their vanity 'cap that eat them alive come Club Championship weekend. 

[Newby]

3 hours ago, North Butte said:

 After May 13, 2022 I will not be actively participating on GolfWRX

It's the 15th here.