Four-ball / foursome - still confusing

[dubbelbogey]

Let's get this out of the way - my perspective on the following is as a US-based golfer.

 

Watching the Zurich Classic tournament this week has me once again thinking that...

 

We should officially change the names "foursomes" and "four-ball" to instead be "alternate shot" and "better/best-ball".

 

I've been watching TV golf most of my life and every time "foursomes" is mentioned by the commentators at the start of a tournament, I have to mentally go through the exercise of remembering if this means alternate shot or best ball. "Foursomes" is not an inherently and sufficiently descriptive name for the format, other than the fact four players are involved. But guess what, almost all golf rounds involve four players. They might as well as have named it "four oranges".

 

Yes, I recognize that those who grew up playing the game with those traditional names (e.g. in the UK) automatically know what each format name refers to, but for whatever reason it was never ingrained into my head. All of my team-format matches here in the US have called them either best ball or alternate shot. Granted, I've not played in any official USGA sanctioned events, so that is a difference. But not once has a match I've played in been called "foursomes"

 

And there is a bit of recent precedent for this: the powers that be decided a few years back to rename "all-square" to "tied", so I see no reason they shouldn't also rename these match formats. And while they're at it, "medal play" should be renamed, "stroke play" in all official uses. (You traditionalists can keep calling the matches whatever you like in your own private usage. 😎)

 

 

 

[nikeblades00]

Your not the only 1. Confuses me as well.

[Shilgy]

Or….if you want o play the game learn the proper terminology?  Just a thought.

 

If I in a stroke play event do I still get a medal?

[dubbelbogey]

10 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Or….if you want o play the game learn the proper terminology?  Just a thought.

 

If I in a stroke play event do I still get a medal?

 

Oh - I've played in a decent number of locally sanctioned (but not USGA) team events and they were all described in their official materials as either "alternate shot" or "best ball" (or better ball). So I think "proper terminology" isn't a universal truth.

 

You might get a medal for winning a stroke play event, but you might not. By the same token, I've won medals in team match play events, too. So what's up with that?

 

I guess part of the problem I have with the traditional names is that they're quasi-descriptive. If they just named them "oranges" and "apples", it'd actually be less confusing.

Edited April 24, 2022 by dubbelbogey

[Shilgy]

4 minutes ago, dubbelbogey said:

Oh - I've played in a decent number of locally sanctioned (but not USGA) team events and they were all described in their official materials as either "alternate shot" or "best ball" (or better ball). So I think "proper terminology" isn't a universal truth.

 

You might get a medal for winning a stroke play event, but you might not. By the same token, I've won medals in team match play events, too. So what's up with that?

 

I guess part of the problem I have with the traditional names is that they're quasi-descriptive. If they just named them "oranges" and "apples", it'd actually be less confusing.

Golf at its core is a game that leans strongly on its traditions….would you agree with that?  So yes….if they called it oranges instead of foursomes I would answer the same way.  
 

What’s  next? Eliminate “love” from tennis scoring?😄

[dubbelbogey]

Yes - I'd agree that golf leans heavily on its traditions.

 

But it has also changed and evolved. "All-square" has become "tied", elimination of the stymie, women can join most clubs, metal clubs (which most of us still call "woods"). The list goes on, and golf endures through it all.

 

I think this particular change would not harm the core tradition of the game and eliminate confusion for a very large part of the golf watching audience. Just a pragmatic suggestion.

 

It's not like I'm suggesting the hole sized be changed to 10 inches in diameter.

[TwistedSister]

30 minutes ago, dubbelbogey said:

Yes - I'd agree that golf leans heavily on its traditions.

 

But it has also changed and evolved. "All-square" has become "tied", elimination of the stymie, women can join most clubs, metal clubs (which most of us still call "woods"). The list goes on, and golf endures through it all.

 

I think this particular change would not harm the core tradition of the game and eliminate confusion for a very large part of the golf watching audience. Just a pragmatic suggestion.

 

It's not like I'm suggesting the hole sized be changed to 10 inches in diameter.

I am playing in a three man scramble tomorrow  and the holes are 12"

[Duct Tape]

I prefer foursomes and four ball. But then I’m still unhappy about the loss of all square, and especially dormie!

 

Signed,

 

Stick-in-mud 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2022 by Duct Tape

[iBanesto]

4 hours ago, Duct Tape said:

I prefer foursomes and four ball. But then I’m still unhappy about the loss of all square, and especially dormie!

 

Signed,

 

Stick-in-mud 

 

 

 

Yeah I am not keen about the change to "tied" in match play.

 

Here is a potential mnemonic:

 

• Foursomes = doing it together
• Fourball = doing it by yourself

Edited April 24, 2022 by iBanesto

[nsxguy]

Four ball = all 4 balls count

 

Foursomes = the other game.

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, iBanesto said:

 

Yeah I am not keen about the change to all square in match play.

 

Here is a potential mnemonic:

 

• Foursomes = doing it together
• Fourball = doing it by yourself

Backwards…old was all square…new is tied.

[MattTheTaff]

This is how I remember it.

 

Four ball = 4x balls on the floor.

Foursome = alternate shot with partner.

 

Whats the one where you all put your car keys in an ashtray before the round?

[iBanesto]

53 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Backwards…old was all square…new is tied.

 

Yup I meant I prefer the "old" terms of all square.

 

[jordan2240]

I've found it confusing as well, but now understand it better due to this thread.  If I were to change it, I might just call it 'fourball' and 'twoball'.

[mat562]

The fourball/foursomes conundrum is as confusing to me as having to remember left and right and up and down.

[grm24]

11 minutes ago, mat562 said:

The fourball/foursomes conundrum is as confusing to me as having to remember left and right and up and down.

Don't forget hot and cold.

[Hawkeye77]

11 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Or….if you want o play the game learn the proper terminology?  Just a thought.

 

If I in a stroke play event do I still get a medal?

Yes, in high school, in college, at USGA events, you bet!

[Hawkeye77]

11 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Golf at its core is a game that leans strongly on its traditions….would you agree with that?  So yes….if they called it oranges instead of foursomes I would answer the same way.  
 

What’s  next? Eliminate “love” from tennis scoring?😄

 

Right on!

 

Actually many years ago there was a "movement" to do just that and change tennis scoring to something "simpler" because of the Love - 15 - 30 - 40 history and tradition -- thankfully it fizzled.

 

Did this guy delete the other thread on this because it wasn't going any better?

 

I think those old Greek names are hard to remember and confusing, how dare they - I mean Pythagorean Theorem? Let's just call it Carl's roofline calculator.  Archimedes Principle? It's just that guy in a bathtub, so we'll call it Ernie's Rubber Duckie Rule.  

 

Why is it called a wedge? Slicing off some cheese? Does it keep the door to the green closed? When you shank one do your shorts ride up you bum? Just call them 10, 11, 12 and 13 irons and be done with it (and I had a cut off rusty old 10 iron in my first set at age 10/11).  

 

Take some time, learn the origins of the terms - if you've watched it all your life and aren't intellectually curious enough to learn where they came from, what they mean, don't suggest because you get confused they need to be changed.  

 

OP you and your revisionists can call it whatever you like in your little groups - don't mess with the traditions and bedrock of this great game!

[Hawkeye77]

 

[ChipStrokes]

4 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

Right on!

 

Actually many years ago there was a "movement" to do just that and change tennis scoring to something "simpler" because of the Love - 15 - 30 - 40 history and tradition -- thankfully it fizzled.

 

Did this guy delete the other thread on this because it wasn't going any better?

 

I think those old Greek names are hard to remember and confusing, how dare they - I mean Pythagorean Theorem? Let's just call it Carl's roofline calculator.  Archimedes Principle? It's just that guy in a bathtub, so we'll call it Ernie's Rubber Duckie Rule.  

 

Why is it called a wedge? Slicing off some cheese? Does it keep the door to the green closed? When you shank one do your shorts ride up you bum? Just call them 10, 11, 12 and 13 irons and be done with it (and I had a cut off rusty old 10 iron in my first set at age 10/11).  

 

Take some time, learn the origins of the terms - if you've watched it all your life and aren't intellectually curious enough to learn where they came from, what they mean, don't suggest because you get confused they need to be changed.  

 

OP you and your revisionists can call it whatever you like in your little groups - don't mess with the traditions and bedrock of this great game!

such passion. just beautiful. 

 

doesn’t change the fact that calling a round of best ball played by a pair of players “fourball” is confusing as hell. 

 

that’s to say nothing of “foursomes” when four guys aren’t playing together. they’re playing in two pairs. 

[iBanesto]

Unfortunately for Stephen Ames 9&8 still means "Got your **** demolished". 😂

 

Edited April 24, 2022 by iBanesto

[Hawkeye77]

8 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

such passion. just beautiful. 

 

 

 

Makes me think of Cover of the Rolling Stone - good thought for the day!

 

Singing about beauty, singing about truth . . . . . beautiful!

[ChipStrokes]

5 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

Makes me think of Cover of the Rolling Stone - good thought for the day!

 

Singing about beauty, singing about truth . . . . . beautiful!

beautifully and truthfully confusing, sure. 

[wcbjr]

While you're at it, get people to start saying 'ball mark' when referring to the mark the ball makes on the green upon impact, and not 'divot'...good luck.

[fairways4life]

50 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

Right on!

 

Actually many years ago there was a "movement" to do just that and change tennis scoring to something "simpler" because of the Love - 15 - 30 - 40 history and tradition -- thankfully it fizzled.

 

Did this guy delete the other thread on this because it wasn't going any better?

 

I think those old Greek names are hard to remember and confusing, how dare they - I mean Pythagorean Theorem? Let's just call it Carl's roofline calculator.  Archimedes Principle? It's just that guy in a bathtub, so we'll call it Ernie's Rubber Duckie Rule.  

 

Why is it called a wedge? Slicing off some cheese? Does it keep the door to the green closed? When you shank one do your shorts ride up you bum? Just call them 10, 11, 12 and 13 irons and be done with it (and I had a cut off rusty old 10 iron in my first set at age 10/11).  

 

Take some time, learn the origins of the terms - if you've watched it all your life and aren't intellectually curious enough to learn where they came from, what they mean, don't suggest because you get confused they need to be changed.  

 

OP you and your revisionists can call it whatever you like in your little groups - don't mess with the traditions and bedrock of this great game!

 

Guessing you weren't a fan of the changes to all square and dormie and hazard and whatever else was recently changed? 

 

The English language had evolved a lot over the years. Ever read Shakespeare? Obviously we don't speak like that anymore. Pine cones used to be called pineapples. Aprons used to be called naprons. It was changed to aprons out of confusion. The list goes on and on. The white house used to be called the president's palace.

 

In golf we had mashies and niblicks and whatever else. Even the name golf evolved from several different terms like kolv and goff. 

 

The English language will never stop evolving and new words are added to the dictionary every year (for better or for worse! Lol). 

 

It's clearly an issue because even golfers get confused about the fourball / foursomes thing (as evidenced by this thread and just in every day encounters with golfers during every ryder cup. The root of the problem is that fourball and foursomes only comes up on occasion for us American golfers so it never really gets burned into our heads on a regular basis. If golf wanted to appeal to more people and get more casual or non-golf fans interested the whole fourball foursomes thing would be a simple step.

Edited April 24, 2022 by fairways4life

[Duct Tape]

16 minutes ago, fairways4life said:

 

Guessing you weren't a fan of the changes to all square and dormie and hazard and whatever else was recently changed? 

 

Thanks for reminding me FW4L!

 

”Penalty area” ??? -  WTF?!?!

[Chunked]

In any other context outside of a tournament, 4some wouldn’t mean alternate shot and would mean a group of 4 golfers playing together. 
 

In much the same way, if you texted your buddies and said let’s play a 4 ball tomorrow they wouldn’t assume you meant play Best Ball. They’d likely wonder why the heck you said 4 ball as it’s pretty clear that if you have 4 people there will be 4 balls unless it’s alternate shot. 

[Hawkeye77]

25 minutes ago, fairways4life said:

 

Guessing you weren't a fan of the changes to all square and dormie and hazard and whatever else was recently changed? 

 

 

Penalty area made sense to me.

 

But the match play terms? No reason to change them at all.  Just another part of the populist rule changes, those were terminology vs. the out of bounds rule change, for example, but equally silly and unnecessary.  

 

"All square" or "dormie" were long recognized and established terms in golf and no need to dumb stuff down, which is exactly what was done.  They weren't barriers to people enjoying the game, lol, and were easy to understand and if not, in this day and age, it takes 20 seconds to Google (so even less of a reason to change).

 

But . . . let's not have people be interested in history or trying to learn something . . . lowest common denominator wins!

[fairways4life]

2 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

Penalty area made sense to me.

 

But the match play terms? No reason to change them at all.  Just another part of the populist rule changes, those were terminology vs. the out of bounds rule change, for example, but equally silly and unnecessary.  

 

"All square" or "dormie" were long recognized and established terms in golf and no need to dumb stuff down, which is exactly what was done.  They weren't barriers to people enjoying the game, lol, and were easy to understand and if not, in this day and age, it takes 20 seconds to Google (so even less of a reason to change).

 

But . . . let's not have people be interested in history or trying to learn something . . . lowest common denominator wins!

 

Totally agree on the match play terms, especially dormie as that referred to a very specific situation. What is being dormie now anyway? Just "3 down with 3 to play?" (I honestly don't even know)

 

I'm a writer by trade, so I always enjoy nerding out on debates about the English language. 

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, fairways4life said:

 

Totally agree on the match play terms, especially dormie as that referred to a very specific situation. What is being dormie now anyway? Just "3 down with 3 to play?" (I honestly don't even know)

 

I'm a writer by trade, so I always enjoy nerding out on debates about the English language. 

 

 

That's all it is!  If you are up and win a hole it's over.

 

Edit:  or "halve"!  See below, lol.

 

 

Edited April 24, 2022 by Hawkeye77