Four-ball / foursome - still confusing

[brew4eagle]

1 hour ago, fairways4life said:

 

Totally agree on the match play terms, especially dormie as that referred to a very specific situation. What is being dormie now anyway? Just "3 down with 3 to play?" (I honestly don't even know)

 

I'm a writer by trade, so I always enjoy nerding out on debates about the English language. 

 

 

"3 up with 3 to play" is more correct.  The leader is dormie, not the trailer.

[Christosterone]

 

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye77 said:

That's all it is!  If you are up dormie and win get a half or better tie a hole or better it's over.

 

Fixed that for ya.

[Hawkeye77]

Just now, nsxguy said:

 

Fixed that for ya.

LOL, needed that third cup of coffee!!!

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, fairways4life said:

 

Totally agree on the match play terms, especially dormie as that referred to a very specific situation. What is being dormie now anyway? Just "3 down with 3 to play?" (I honestly don't even know)

 

I'm a writer by trade, so I always enjoy nerding out on debates about the English language. 

 

 

 

I'm not aware of any replacement word for "dormie". One can still be dormie.

 

But the terms have been taken out of the Rules, presumably to make the rules easier to read and understand.

 

Nobody says you can't use them anymore. 👍

 

 

[manku]

Golfers don't understand foursome vs fourball, yet are supposed to understand the rules of golf?

[2bGood]

8 hours ago, brew4eagle said:

"3 up with 3 to play" is more correct.  The leader is dormie, not the trailer.

For players that are confused by this, the term comes form the French word dormet - meaning sleep or at rest. Another words the leader can rest or relax as they can't actually lose... I prefer to make sure I stomp on my competitors  throat rather than relax though. No need to lift your foot off the gas. 

Edited April 24, 2022 by 2bGood

[golfandfishing]

If you think this is tough then I don’t recommend a cruise. Ship time, aft, starboard, port……. No wonder people jump off every now and then. 

[Shilgy]

3 hours ago, wcbjr said:

While you're at it, get people to start saying 'ball mark' when referring to the mark the ball makes on the green upon impact, and not 'divot'...good luck.

Divot is the mark on the green now? When did that change?  It’s pitch mark!  
Divot it the piece of turf taken up by a approach shot.🧐

[Bye]

4 hours ago, wcbjr said:

While you're at it, get people to start saying 'ball mark' when referring to the mark the ball makes on the green upon impact, and not 'divot'...good luck.

Pitch mark. 

[Hawkeye77]

Guessing getting our course to refer to a carts as a “buggy” and push cart as a “trolley” will be a losing proposition, lol. More’s the pity!

Edited April 24, 2022 by Hawkeye77

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

Divot is the mark on the green now? When did that change?  It’s pitch mark!  
Divot it the piece of turf taken up by a approach shot.🧐

 

Ball mark or pitch mark but I can't ever remember someone calling it a divot.

[Zitlow]

I concur and why do some announcers call a 3 wood a 3 metal but they don't call an iron a stainless? 

[nsxguy]

2 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

I concur and why do some announcers call a 3 wood a 3 metal but they don't call an iron a stainless? 

 

Why do we park on the driveway but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ahhhhhh, never mind.

[brew4eagle]

2 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

I concur and why do some announcers call a 3 wood a 3 metal but they don't call an iron a stainless? 

Stainless is an alloy that contains iron.  Maybe they should call them "alloys".

[wildcatden]

In one of those opposite field events, the PGA Tour should reinstate the stymie.  Might make it more interesting.

[m d g]

12 hours ago, MattTheTaff said:

Whats the one where you all put your car keys in an ashtray before the round?

Swingers?

[dubbelbogey]

The fact remains that, here in the US, most of the time these matches are referred to as "alternate shot" and "best ball". That is  our locale's de-facto standard, even in many official tournament materials, and the "traditional" names are used less often.

 

This is not the case of "just learn the terms". We have terms,  they are different, but are not used consistently in our US-based televised events. In fact, the USGA and R&A materials, in their description of foursomes and four-ball, explicitly state that these are "also known as". So it's not like "alternate shot" and "best ball" are the incorrect terms only us dummies use. (Dumbing down... sheesh...)

 

I'm not advocating that the whole world change, just for primarily US-based televised events and the like. I'm talking US-based TV channels broadcasting/streaming to primarily US-based audiences.  Anybody else can call it what they want in their own circles.

 

I've got no issue with buggy/trolley vs. carts, but they're not quasi-descriptive. "Foursome" is not only quasi-descriptive but actually has a meaning here in the US for most all golf - it generally means a group of four golfers playing together. So, it can get confused/conflated with that usage as well. Yes - context helps, but not perfectly.

 

 

 

 

[brew4eagle]

48 minutes ago, dubbelbogey said:

The fact remains that, here in the US, most of the time these matches are referred to as "alternate shot" and "best ball". That is  our locale's de-facto standard, even in many official tournament materials, and the "traditional" names are used less often.

 

This is not the case of "just learn the terms". We have terms,  they are different, but are not used consistently in our US-based televised events. In fact, the USGA and R&A materials, in their description of foursomes and four-ball, explicitly state that these are "also known as". So it's not like "alternate shot" and "best ball" are the incorrect terms only us dummies use. (Dumbing down... sheesh...)

 

I'm not advocating that the whole world change, just for primarily US-based televised events and the like. I'm talking US-based TV channels broadcasting/streaming to primarily US-based audiences.  Anybody else can call it what they want in their own circles.

 

I've got no issue with buggy/trolley vs. carts, but they're not quasi-descriptive. "Foursome" is not only quasi-descriptive but actually has a meaning here in the US for most all golf - it generally means a group of four golfers playing together. So, it can get confused/conflated with that usage as well. Yes - context helps, but not perfectly.

 

 

 

 

On US televised events that I watch (only an occasional viewer) they tend to use all of the terms fairly equally when I've watched.  I haven't observed that they stick to "foursomes" and "four ball" exclusively.  In fact, the reason I know what the terms mean is that they alternate amongst the terms quite often, all most to the point of dumbing it down too much.

[MattTheTaff]

2 hours ago, m d g said:

Swingers?

Ah, that makes sense. 

 

I was wondering why the club captains wife was asking me to strangle her while she brushed my hair. 

 

[2bGood]

In American football, we still call it a touchdown though you no longer touch the ball down.

 

Sports have traditional terms that may not actually be descriptive. Most people are intelligent enough to remember them.

[sui generis]

10 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

They weren't barriers to people enjoying the game, lol, and were easy to understand

 

Says the person whose first language is American English. 😉

[Hawkeye77]

15 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Says the person whose first language is American English. 😉

 

Yes, even I can handle "foursomes" and "four ball" - I'm missing something here, but often do. 

[sui generis]

14 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

Yes, even I can handle "foursomes" and "four ball" - I'm missing something here, but often do. 

 

It was carefully explained in a 2019 Rules Workshop by Mark Reinemann, Chairman of the USGA Rules Committee, that many small changes in words and terminology were an effort to use a more "international" form of English. 🙂

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_English

[Hawkeye77]

8 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

It was carefully explained in a 2019 Rules Workshop by Mark Reinemann, Chairman of the USGA Rules Committee, that many small changes in words and terminology were an effort to use a more "international" form of English. 🙂

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_English

 

It sure looks like "international form of English" is code for making it more palatable for Americans who don't like the way it's spoken across the pond (or just want it the way we have influenced it), so I'm still going with dumbing it down if a couple of specific and longstanding match play terms were part of that.  The rest of the world that learns English in a formal way sure seems to speak English better than we do.  Heck, just read about any decent novel written 60-100 years ago - the breadth and depth of vocabulary is something to behold! But I digress . . . 

[755]

On 4/23/2022 at 8:03 PM, nikeblades00 said:

Your not the only 1. Confuses me as well.

Ditto!!

[sui generis]

7 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

It sure looks like "international form of English" is code for making it more palatable for Americans who don't like the way it's spoken across the pond (or just want it the way we have influenced it), so I'm still going with dumbing it down if a couple of specific and longstanding match play terms were part of that.  The rest of the world that learns English in a formal way sure seems to speak English better than we do.  Heck, just read about any decent novel written 60-100 years ago - the breadth and depth of vocabulary is something to behold! But I digress . . . 

 

It seems International English produces better outcomes when run through various translation programs to foreign languages. Thus, a late pass for the 2019 Rules was through a panel of International English scholars.

[Hawkeye77]

17 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

It seems International English produces better outcomes when run through various translation programs to foreign languages. Thus, a late pass for the 2019 Rules was through a panel of International English scholars.

Great - but "foursomes" and "four-ball" are still part of the official rules, which means whether "international" or "the King's" or "what we speak over here", the terms still pass muster. 

[acemandrake]

Keep "all square" alive!

 

I will die on this hill! 

[sui generis]

1 minute ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Great - but "foursomes" and "four-ball" are still part of the official rules, which means whether "international" or "the King's" or "what we speak over here", the terms still pass muster. 

 

My guess is that the scholars didn't get every change they may have wanted. The R&A, who "govern" most of the planet still have lots of say in these matters. 

 

As you may know, I'm a busy referee and am lucky enough to do some good match play each summer. I'll admit to still using old terminology when announcing match play.