Four-ball / foursome - still confusing

[Ross_Albatross]

Four-ball… 4 balls in play

Foursomes… you play ‘some’ of the shots…

[ChipStrokes]

4 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

Four-ball… 4 balls in play

Foursomes… you play ‘some’ of the shots…

fair. but why not just use the names that actually describe what’s happening?

 

best ball and alternate shot

[Ross_Albatross]

Just now, ChipStrokes said:

fair. but why not just use the names that actually describe what’s happening?

 

best ball and alternate shot

I do agree - I was just trying to help on the terms… also hear that they don’t want to call it alternate shot since one player can hit twice in a row; last putt and tee shot depending on the even/odd holes tee ball - but still…

[philly2kuk]

16 hours ago, wcbjr said:

While you're at it, get people to start saying 'ball mark' when referring to the mark the ball makes on the green upon impact, and not 'divot'...good luck.

That’s called a pitch mark in the UK. Divot is when you take grass out on a full shot

[Golfingfanatic]

5 hours ago, ChipStrokes said:

fair. but why not just use the names that actually describe what’s happening?

 

best ball and alternate shot

Being pedantic, neither best ball or alternate shot describe what's actually happening.

 

In foursomes, it is perfectably reasonable for a player to hit shots in a row. 

The term "best ball" implies that only one score out of the four counts which is not true.

[MattyO1984]

I never got the chance to comment on this yesterday but I was too busy playing - hit a ball with a stick until it falls into the ground or as some of you old fogeys might remember it golf. 

[Scotty1140]

If anyone tries to make "putting surface" the new official term for "green", my head might explode. 

 

Hearing that or even "the surface" is so cringy.

 

I'm still trying to get used to "penalty area" and "tied". They sound awkward. Awkward like that guy trying to pull off skinny jeans with too little skinny.

[ChipStrokes]

4 hours ago, Golfingfanatic said:

The term "best ball" implies that only one score out of the four counts which is not true.

isn’t that exactly what happens though? both partners play their own ball and take the better score once they hole out. 

 

and if we’re gonna be pedantic, main issue is with the use of “four” when they’re only playing with a partner. 

[deadsolid...shank]

I get where the OP is coming from. I think probably anyone who is posting on a theme specific message board probably does understand  it, even though I agree it doesn’t necessarily make a lot of sense (to some anyway). But talking about  it with non, or even casual, golfers, then you do have to explain it. 
 

The one that gets me is scramble and best ball. To my way of thinking, choosing the best shot and everyone playing from that spot is literally “best ball”.  Ok, cue up the “scramble is not golf” crowd now. 
 

I remember when my dad started playing golf about 10 years ago, he had a difficult time wrapping his head around which was which. 
 

Oh well, I doubt any of those terms are going to change anytime soon. And I’m definitely one of those who hate the term “3 metal”, it still sounds so pretentious to me when they say it.  Even after all these years. 

[deadsolid...shank]

1 minute ago, ChipStrokes said:

isn’t that exactly what happens though? both partners play their own ball and take the better score once they hole out. 

 

and if we’re gonna be pedantic, main issue is with the use of “four” when they’re only playing with a partner. 

Yep, we have a tournament coming up. It’s two man teams, one best score out of the two.  It’s called a 2 man best ball. Not a four ball, even though there will be four players in the group. 
 

When we have a tournament where we take turns hitting the same ball (you know, alternating), it’s called alternate shot. Seems simpler to me, but I guess in the grand scheme of things, it’s really not that big of a deal. 

[brew4eagle]

34 minutes ago, deadsolid...shank said:

Yep, we have a tournament coming up. It’s two man teams, one best score out of the two.  It’s called a 2 man best ball. Not a four ball, even though there will be four players in the group. 
 

When we have a tournament where we take turns hitting the same ball (you know, alternating), it’s called alternate shot. Seems simpler to me, but I guess in the grand scheme of things, it’s really not that big of a deal. 

If we're striving for the best language possible- if it's only 2 man teams shouldn't it be called "better" ball? 

[StudentGolfer4]

The local pro around me is a huge fan of “better ball” and “sudden victory”. In his words, the loser doesn’t die suddenly, but we do declare a victor!

[Golfingfanatic]

2 hours ago, ChipStrokes said:

isn’t that exactly what happens though? both partners play their own ball and take the better score once they hole out. 

 

and if we’re gonna be pedantic, main issue is with the use of “four” when they’re only playing with a partner. 

the term "best ball" doesn't imply anything about the size of teams, though. If you see four golfers on a tee and one of them says "we play a best ball tournament today", you have to assume that there are two teams involved. To a non-golfer it's just as likely that there is only one single team of four playing with one  of the  four scores counting.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Golfingfanatic

[gvogel]

Anyone ever play...Chapman?

[2bGood]

13 hours ago, ChipStrokes said:

fair. but why not just use the names that actually describe what’s happening?

 

best ball and alternate shot

 

7 hours ago, Golfingfanatic said:

Being pedantic, neither best ball or alternate shot describe what's actually happening.

 

In foursomes, it is perfectably reasonable for a player to hit shots in a row. 

The term "best ball" implies that only one score out of the four counts which is not true.

 

2 hours ago, brew4eagle said:

If we're striving for the best language possible- if it's only 2 man teams shouldn't it be called "better" ball? 

 

If I had $1 for the amount of times I have heard people call a scramble a 'best ball' I would be able to buy 14 new clubs every year.

 

And can you blame them? A scramble is format where you select the best ball on each shot. 

 

If the goal was to come up with something very descriptive - maybe 'best hole score' 🤷‍♂️

 

or you could just stick with Four-ball. 

Edited April 25, 2022 by 2bGood

[North Butte]

I can count on one hand, with fingers left over, the number of times I've played in an "alternate shot" aka "foursomes" game anywhere in USA. But I've played it more times than that in just a handful of week-long golf vacations in UK. 

 

And I absolutely guarantee you that USA Tour players would choose en masse to completely eliminate that format from Ryder Cup, Presidents Cup, etc. They hate it and aren't any good at it. 

 

So no, I would not be in favor of letting the USA-specific terminology replace that terminology used in places where that format is viewed somewhat favorably.

 

In any case, outside of a few private clubs in UK nobody plays the pure form of foursomes anyway. If the players not hitting a shot are not walking toward the landing area as the shots are being struck, the whole thing slows down to the same crawling pace as regular fourball place. The entire (historical) reason foursomes existed was as a format that could be played in well under two hours. That is not possible when the non-playing partners stand still right next to the partners who are hitting the shots.

[Kaysquare]

2 hours ago, deadsolid...shank said:

I get where the OP is coming from. I think probably anyone who is posting on a theme specific message board probably does understand  it, even though I agree it doesn’t necessarily make a lot of sense (to some anyway). But talking about  it with non, or even casual, golfers, then you do have to explain it. 
 

The one that gets me is scramble and best ball. To my way of thinking, choosing the best shot and everyone playing from that spot is literally “best ball”.  Ok, cue up the “scramble is not golf” crowd now. 
 

I remember when my dad started playing golf about 10 years ago, he had a difficult time wrapping his head around which was which. 
 

Oh well, I doubt any of those terms are going to change anytime soon. And I’m definitely one of those who hate the term “3 metal”, it still sounds so pretentious to me when they say it.  Even after all these years. 

Speaking of "3 metal".....I've never heard anyone on a golf course refer to woods as anything else.  Even if you go to a website that sells golf clubs they still call them "woods".  Only a very few announcers seem to want to call them "metals"....and it sounds ridiculous.  Some words we can't use anymore.....sand trap, pin, dormie, water, all square.  Now they are sand bunker or grass bunker, flagstick, penalty area, tied.  Oh, remember the term "frog hair"?  Now it's not even fringe, it's the short mown grass around the putting surface. 🤣

[Ferguson]

1 minute ago, 2bGood said:

 

 

 

If I had $1 for the amount of times I have heard people call a scramble a 'best ball' I would be able to buy 14 new clubs every year.

 

I can you blame them? A scramble is format where you select the best ball on each shot. 

 

If the goal was to come up with something very descriptive - maybe 'best hole score' 🤷‍♂️

 

or you could just stick with Four-ball. 

 

And the Texas Scramble, sometimes called the Chattahoochee is where all players hit their drive, the group decides the best drive and all individuals play their individual ball and then record best net, right? 

 

 

[Soloman1]

Foursome = alternate shot of a two-person team

 

Best ball = better ball = the better score of a two-person team, stroke or match play, all players playing their own ball

 

Putting surface = green = adding extra word(s) to appear smarter and an expert

 

Green complex = see putting surface

 

[2bGood]

32 minutes ago, North Butte said:

 

 

So no, I would not be in favor of letting the USA-specific terminology replace that terminology used in places where that format is viewed somewhat favorably.

 

In any case, outside of a few private clubs in UK nobody plays the pure form of foursomes anyway. If the players not hitting a shot are not walking toward the landing area as the shots are being struck, the whole thing slows down to the same crawling pace as regular fourball place. The entire (historical) reason foursomes existed was as a format that could be played in well under two hours. That is not possible when the non-playing partners stand still right next to the partners who are hitting the shots.

 

This is an excellent point. It is weird that a bunch of people that don't even pay the format want to change the name.

 

As for the pace of foursomes, even played without one player walking ahead it is much faster, due to half the shots being hit. The issue in the US is I have never heard of club setting times or days aside for foursomes only, which mean if you do play it you are spending way more than usual waiting around. 

[2bGood]

35 minutes ago, Ferguson said:

 

And the Texas Scramble, sometimes called the Chattahoochee is where all players hit their drive, the group decides the best drive and all individuals play their individual ball and then record best net, right? 

 

 

I apologise for introducing a format to the discussion not listed in the rules. I have always heard what you described called a shamble. Not that the term of these un-official fun formats matter. 

 

I have to play in a number of fun charity events for work and the terminology used is typically wrong to very wrong. No biggie. Terms I have seen in rules sheets: Texas Scramble - used to refer to a shotgun start. Best Ball - used to refer to scramble and even both combined (I see this allot) - Texas Scramble Best Ball (which is it?). 😄

 

[woodriff]

We have a popular left-right pairs of tournament at our club. We changed the terms and semantics one year and every volunteer had to explain the terms. 
We’ve now changed the terms to best ball per team, match play. Only better golfers understood the terms that the OP has mentioned. I’d agree with anything that makes the game easier to understand. 

[Ferguson]

24 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

I apologise for introducing a format to the discussion not listed in the rules. I have always heard what you described called a shamble. Not that the term of these un-official fun formats matter. 

 

I have to play in a number of fun charity events for work and the terminology used is typically wrong to very wrong. No biggie. Terms I have seen in rules sheets: Texas Scramble - used to refer to a shotgun start. Best Ball - used to refer to scramble and even both combined (I see this allot) - Texas Scramble Best Ball (which is it?). 😄

 

 

Yes, I have heard it called that too. 

 

 

 

How about that format where only pompous a-holes can play? 

It's called Chamblee, I think? 

 

[North Butte]

53 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

As for the pace of foursomes, even played without one player walking ahead it is much faster, due to half the shots being hit. The issue in the US is I have never heard of club setting times or days aside for foursomes only, which mean if you do play it you are spending way more than usual waiting around. 

Agreed. If I'm going to be stuck out there for four hours I can hit 80-90 shots and still be standing around for the majority of the round. Not really any incentive to only hit half as many shots with twice as much standing around.

 

Some of the more traditional rich-guy courses in England have "two ball days" and "four ball days" certain days of the week. The "two ball days" are a mix of foursomes, singles or two-man head to head matches but the foursomes actually want to play at least as fast as the singles. I've played solo visitor rounds been told to tee off a minimum of an hour ahead of the day's foursome games so I won't be holding them up on the back nine. Two double- digit handicappers playing a friendly match wouldn't even be able to do it with an hour head start.

Edited April 25, 2022 by North Butte

[nsxguy]

15 hours ago, ChipStrokes said:

fair. but why not just use the names that actually describe what’s happening?

 

best ball and alternate shot

 

Maybe because it's not alternating shots.

 

Maybe they should call it "alternate holes" ? How about "alternate tee shots" ?

 

 

[2bGood]

10 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Maybe because it's not alternating shots.

 

Maybe they should call it "alternate holes" ? How about "alternate tee shots" ?

 

 

In foursomes, you literary hit alternate shots.

 

Player a tees off,

Player b hits the next shot,

Player a hits the third shot

and so on. 

[nsxguy]

Just now, 2bGood said:

In foursomes, you literary hit alternate shots.

 

Player a tees off,

Player b hits the next shot,

Player a hits the third shot

and so on. 

 

Player A sinks the putt. Player A MAY be hitting the next tee shot.

[North Butte]

I may have gotten the wrong end of the stick but the way it was explained to me is it was quite common for private clubs to be "two ball clubs" in parts of the UK 100 years ago. As in there was never a time when it was acceptable for a group to have more than two balls in play on a hole. At those clubs they would play "foursomes" as a more social game than a normal "twosome" while still adhering to the rule about not having more than two balls in play.

 

The term was created in order to distinguish between two versus four players on the same hole, it was only two balls in play either way. If you were playing in a "fourball" then you were at a course where "fourballs" were allowed. To put it more simply, in that certain place and time how many balls were in play was a big deal so that's what the terminology described.

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, 2bGood said:

 

If I had $1 for the amount of times I have heard people call a scramble a 'best ball' I would be able to buy 14 new clubs every year.

 

Was thinking the exact same thing although those that call a scramble a best ball are usually casual players with only a modicum of experience, especially with different formats.

[ChipStrokes]

19 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

In foursomes, you literary hit alternate shots.

 

Player a tees off,

Player b hits the next shot,

Player a hits the third shot

and so on. 

there’s still only TWO players.