Lead tape "artists", step inside...

[jarediogolf]

On 6/15/2022 at 7:35 AM, BombinJim said:

Can you elaborate on this one? Thanks

Just look up front cg vs rear cg. 
Simple version.  
front cg: less spin less forgiving. 
rear cg: more spin, more forgiving 

[Stuart_G]

6 hours ago, jarediogolf said:

Just look up front cg vs rear cg. 
Simple version.  
front cg: less spin less forgiving. 
rear cg: more spin, more forgiving 

 

Except the vast majority of realistic lead tape applications doesn't add enough weight to move the c.g. any significant amount.     Sure if you want to add 20+ gm - or 40 feet of regular density or 20 feet of high density  lead tape you might get some movement - but even then it's only going to be a small amount.

 

Lead tape is all about changing the feel of the club - and how that change in feel effects the swing and the delivery.

 

[jarediogolf]

8 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Except the vast majority of realistic lead tape applications doesn't add enough weight to move the c.g. any significant amount.     Sure if you want to add 20+ gm - or 40 feet of regular density or 20 feet of high density  lead tape you might get some movement - but even then it's only going to be a small amount.

 

Lead tape is all about changing the feel of the club - and how that change in feel effects the swing and the delivery.

 

I agree that it is mostly to change feel. 
 

But if your fighting a toe-y hook that your turning over too much and you are adding some lead tape anyway… are you gonna put it on the heel? 

Nah your gonna put that weight on the toe. If your adding it, you might as well add it with some purpose. Also most OEMs don’t have you moving 20 grams of weight around, it’s usually less than that. 

[Stuart_G]

5 hours ago, jarediogolf said:

I agree that it is mostly to change feel. 
 

But if your fighting a toe-y hook that your turning over too much and you are adding some lead tape anyway… are you gonna put it on the heel? 

 

I personally wouldn't care where I put it.   Because I know that with me and my swing, it doesn't matter in the least.  But not all aspects of "feel" is about the c.g. location or how much it changes.  And some might be more sensitive to those types of changes in feel than I am.  

 

But If you're thinking of moving the c.g. location and changing the amount of gear effect by using lead tape - forget it.   If you think you might be able to change the feel in other ways to help you out, go for it.   It certainly wont hurt.   Just don't pretend it has anything to do with the c.g. location.

 

 

5 hours ago, jarediogolf said:

Also most OEMs don’t have you moving 20 grams of weight around, it’s usually less than that. 

 

There is a big difference between moving weight and simply adding weight.   Moving doubles the effect since you're not just adding weight to one part of the face, your removing weight from the opposite side as well.   On top of that moving weight doesn't change the actual head weight. And it's that change in head weight that has a much more dominant effect on the results.  Even then, with the moving weights, the effect is still actually quite small for most.  A lot less than the marketing would lead you to believe. 

 

And You can't do either of those with lead tape.  You can only add.  So you're always going to be back to the fact that the added head weight and how that effects the swing is what lead tape is all about.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Stuart_G

[jarediogolf]

The original poster is adding weight no matter what. He is not talking about adding weight to fix a cg issue. He is adding weight because the club feels too light.
 

When tour players add lead tape they put it where it where it can help them the most. 
 

If you are adding let’s say 6 grams regardless, choosing heal vs toe, front vs back etc is essentially the same as moving the weight. 

Your telling him put it wherever because it doesn’t matter. Well what if he adds it all to the heal, and then decides to MOVE the weight to the toe instead. That’s moving weight. 

 

There is a difference between 6 grams helping you close the face and 6 grams helping you to keep it more open. 
 

So yes, the point of lead to is to influence the feel of the club and how you swing it. But there is nothing wrong with being strategic in how you add it. The OP is adding tape, what’s wrong with him making an educated decision on where to put it?

 

https://golf.com/gear/drivers/how-to-fix-your-driver-miss-using-lead-tape/?amp=1

 

[Stuart_G]

6 hours ago, jarediogolf said:

The original poster is adding weight no matter what. He is not talking about adding weight to fix a cg issue. He is adding weight because the club feels too light.
 

 

No he wasn't.  You were the one that brought up the supposed "effect" on the c.g.  and opened up that can of worms.

 

 

6 hours ago, jarediogolf said:

When tour players add lead tape they put it where it where it can help them the most. 
 

 

No.  They put it were they think it can help.   Whether it really does help the way they think it does and the reasons behind any help is the point of my post.

 

 

6 hours ago, jarediogolf said:

 

If you are adding let’s say 6 grams regardless, choosing heal vs toe, front vs back etc is essentially the same as moving the weight. 

 

No it's not.   Adding 6 gm to the heel is not even close to the same as moving 6 gm from the toe to the heel when it comes to any effect on the c.g.    But you still need to move more than 6 gm to get any appreciable effect.    

 

If you don't believe me, that's fine do the math yourself.  C.G. calcs are not really all that complex. This isn't opinion or speculation.  It really can be calculated and verified.

 

 

 

6 hours ago, jarediogolf said:

Your telling him put it wherever because it doesn’t matter. Well what if he adds it all to the heal, and then decides to MOVE the weight to the toe instead. That’s moving weight. 

 

But that's not what the OP is doing.  He's adding weight, not moving it.   And the amount he's going to add for SW purposes is likely going to be much less than any OEM's moving weight.

 

 

6 hours ago, jarediogolf said:

There is a difference between 6 grams helping you close the face and 6 grams helping you to keep it more open. 
 

 

Moving or adding?    You keep changing the scenario.   But if it does, it's not a universal effect (one that everyone will see) and it has nothing to do with any effect on the c.g in either case for the amounts we're talking about for the OP.

 

 

6 hours ago, jarediogolf said:

 But there is nothing wrong with being strategic in how you add it. The OP is adding tape, what’s wrong with him making an educated decision on where to put it?

 

already answered that in my last post.

 

9 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

If you think you might be able to change the feel in other ways to help you out, go for it.   It certainly wont hurt.   Just don't pretend it has anything to do with the c.g. location.

 

Besides, golf is such a head game, the placebo effect can be a real thing for some people.

 

 

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by Stuart_G

[jarediogolf]

Cool link, thank you. 

 

So for a compact 241 gram titleist iron the difference between adding a 4 grams of weight to the hosel vs the toe is a cg movement of .055 inches between the two extremes toe and hosel. 

4 grams / 241 gram head = .016 

 

But we are not talking about a heavier compact iron head. We are talking about a lighter larger driver head. 

I mentioned a 6 gram change (what people often add when they cut a half inch off their driver) to a lighter head. 

6 grams weight / 195 gram head = .0307

 

So we are moving proportionally twice as much weight potentially twice as far at the extremes.

 

Some people are adding 10 or 12 grams to their drivers. 

 

Add to that the difference between the weight helping you to close the face vs hindering you from closing based on where you put it and for some people there can be a difference based on where the weight is put. For others maybe not. 

 

There is a potential difference between front heel side and rear toe side weight in how the club plays. Maybe not for you and your swing as you state, but for someone else it can make a difference in flight and delivery. 

 

I’m not going to be so arrogant so as to say it definitely doesn’t matter where the OP places weight and that tour pros that attempt to influence shape when they add tape are ignorant for trying. 

 

I’m also not going to be so arrogant to say it will definitely make a difference for one person or another. 

 

He asked for tips or guidance. 
 

So we can say who cares doesn’t matter. 

 

Or we can give general info and each person can choose what to do. There is nothing wrong with choosing to add weight heal or toe or front or back. 
 

So going back to the original question.

The OP asked 

“I don't want to mess up launch conditions too much, any tips or guidance?”

 

As a general rule for golf clubs: 

Put it on the bottom of the club and you will be fine. 

Toe weight is fade bias. 

Heel weight is draw bias. 
Rear weight is more spin and forgiveness. (And a draw bias maybe)
Front weight is less spin less forgiveness. (And maybe some fade bias)

If you wrap all the weight around the hosel (as a friend the other day did) it could be bad. Of for someone else it can be good. Depends on your shape pre weight. 

 

If someone is not attempting to accomplish anything other than adding feel and weight, than just put it somewhere it won’t fall off or distract you at address as long as it is not at an extreme that might magnify a swing flaw

🙂

[Wooderson]

@Mp14forlife @Crn50 where, where, where are you getting that 1" wide lead tape?  Most important thing in this thread. 

[Mp14forlife]

1 hour ago, Wooderson said:

@Mp14forlife @Crn50 where, where, where are you getting that 1" wide lead tape?  Most important thing in this thread. 

https://www.golfworks.com/lead-foil-tape/p/lt100v/

[Crn50]

6 hours ago, Wooderson said:

@Mp14forlife @Crn50 where, where, where are you getting that 1" wide lead tape?  Most important thing in this thread. 

Damn right...

5 hours ago, Mp14forlife said:

https://www.golfworks.com/lead-foil-tape/p/lt100v/

That's where I got mine too...

[Stuart_G]

11 hours ago, jarediogolf said:

Cool link, thank you. 

 

You're welecome.

 

11 hours ago, jarediogolf said:

We are talking about a lighter larger driver head. 

 

I mentioned a 6 gram change (what people often add when they cut a half inch off their driver) to a lighter head. 

 

6 grams weight / 195 gram head = .0307

 

You have to include the weight of the adapter in the head weight so it's more like 200+ gm.    But even then, that's still just a c.g. movement of less than ~1 mm.   Still insignificant as far as any effect on the dynamics of the head or impact.

 

 

11 hours ago, jarediogolf said:

So we are moving proportionally twice as much weight potentially twice as far at the extremes.

 

Some people are adding 10 or 12 grams to their drivers. 

 

Some, but not very many.   That would make it just as heavy as a typical 3wd head.

 

 

11 hours ago, jarediogolf said:

I’m not going to be so arrogant ....

 

No, that's not your problem.   Overly defensive maybe, but not arrogant.

 

If you had actually paid attention to what I was saying you'd see that I never said it might not make a difference for some people or that they shouldn't try it.  I only said that if it did, it had nothing to do with what happens to the c.g.  You need to look elsewhere for the reason a small percentage of people might see a change in ball flight based on the details of where it's placed when the amount added is that small.

 

 

11 hours ago, jarediogolf said:

 

 

As a general rule for golf clubs: 

 

 

No.  It's not a general rule unless there it's a reliable approach and provides consistent results for everyone - or at least a large majority.   Just because it may work for some people in some cases, that doesn't make it a general rule.

 

[BIG STU]

On 6/10/2022 at 3:42 PM, chisag said:

... I eventually became an ignorance is bliss kinda guy when it comes to my equipment. I picked up a driver when I spent a Pilot Season out in LA and had none of my club making equipment with me so just played it as is. Maybe my best driving couple of months ever. Got back to Chicago and checked it out to find it was D8 while my other wood/hybrids were painstakingly D1 and graphite shafted irons D3. Wow, D8 is sooooo heavy. I just could not hit it well again and some say this game isn't 89% mental. 

... Now I only make adjustments if the clubs are off by flight or feel. 

Exactly how I do it strictly by feel and ball flight. I have done it that way for so long for me I can just tell. I have a SW machine but never use it on the clubs I play. Really in my case ignorance is bliss because I don't want to know

[BIG STU]

On 6/11/2022 at 12:09 PM, mogc60 said:

Rinse and repeat…hahaha

 

As a student of Uncle Cardy’s advanced course in leadtapeology I also use this method and have for 30 years. It’s just a feel thing. I take lead tape to the range and add weight, hit balls and add until it feels right. One thing I’ve learned is when it’s right you just know, it clicks and it feels perfect. Rinse and repeat…true wisdom 

Exactly--- Old School High Tech Redneck way

[Valtiel]

On 6/18/2022 at 11:45 AM, jarediogolf said:

If your adding it, you might as well add it with some purpose.

@Stuart_G is correct in the points above and @joostin has graciously provided us with proof of these ideas in that link. 

I'd add that when it comes to lead tape placement on the head that you're right in "you might as well put it in the place that helps" but as discussed, how much it *actually* helps is almost nil. When it comes to actual CG movement in clubheads, most of that is going to be done internally with hotmelt when it isn't being done with moveable weights. Lots of higher speed PING guys are dropping the mass on the rear weights and putting hotmelt low and forward in the head. As mentioned, this redistribution of weight from one extreme to the other is what makes the tangible difference.

You said most OEMs aren't having you move 20g of weight around, but every track weighted Taylormade driver since the R15 has had 20g+ of moveable weight, and the PINGs have had 14-26g across the G410 and G425 lines. Many others have been close to this, and the Driver CG Report charts have shown how much impact these weights have, so we don't have to speculate. Moving the 16g weight on a G410+ from all the way in the heel to all the way in the toe accounts for about 5.5mm of sweet spot movement, which is considered quite a bit. Therefore the *addition* of 16g of weight to the heel or the toe would have around half as much impact (~2.25mm of sweetspot movement) which is something, but considered pretty average from an adjustable driver standpoint and won't make a driver heavily draw or fade biased on it's own. Since virtually no one is adding that much weight, you can see how by the time we get down to the 6g of lead tape you mentioned how the impact on CG movement is basically negligible. 

I'd also argue that with regards to lead tape placement location, the far bigger concern for pros is about the tape staying on the head and not getting peeled off by a tee or any turf interaction, both of which can and do happen. Therefore when presented with the option, most guys are just going to pick heel or toe based on where they already have their weight shifted towards, but not because that actually matters from a CG standpoint.  

Edited June 20, 2022 by Valtiel

[BIG STU]

3 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

@Stuart_G is correct in the points above and @joostin has graciously provided us with proof of these ideas in that link. 

I'd add that when it comes to lead tape placement on the head that you're right in "you might as well put it in the place that helps" but as discussed, how much it *actually* helps is almost nil. When it comes to actual CG movement in clubheads, most of that is going to be done internally with hotmelt when it isn't being done with moveable weights. Lots of higher speed PING guys are dropping the mass on the rear weights and putting hotmelt low and forward in the head. As mentioned, this redistribution of weight from one extreme to the other is what makes the tangible difference.

You said most OEMs aren't having you move 20g of weight around, but every track weighted Taylormade driver since the R15 has had 20g+ of moveable weight, and the PINGs have had 14-26g across the G410 and G425 lines. Many others have been close to this, and the Driver CG Report charts have shown how much impact these weights have, so we don't have to speculate. Moving the 16g weight on a G410+ from all the way in the heel to all the way in the toe accounts for about 5.5mm of sweet spot movement, which is considered quite a bit. Therefore the *addition* of 16g of weight to the heel or the toe would have around half as much impact (~2.25mm of sweetspot movement) which is something, but considered pretty average from an adjustable driver standpoint and won't make a driver heavily draw or fade biased on it's own. Since virtually no one is adding that much weight, you can see how by the time we get down to the 6g of lead tape you mentioned how the impact on CG movement is basically negligible. 

I'd also argue that with regards to lead tape placement location, the far bigger concern for pros is about the tape staying on the head and not getting peeled off by a tee or any turf interaction, both of which can and do happen. Therefore when presented with the option, most guys are just going to pick heel or toe based on where they already have their weight shifted towards, but not because that actually matters from a CG standpoint.  

IMHO CG is over rated---- There are a lot of individual factors player wise--- Every ones swing and AOA is different plus the horizontal delivery of the actual head to the ball itself. Some people like myself have an uncanny sense of feel and added weight can subconciously alter ones actual delivery of the club to the hitting zone and fine tune it again subconciously for delivery. Good example and this is just me. I can not stand tip weights I can tell by feel within a few shots if a club whether iron or wood has been "slugged in the hosel". Then again others like it and  that is just fine as far as i am concerned. I would say on proper things like CG etc guys like Stuart and Howard James are well more versed on it than I am. I just go by instinct and feel for me

[Valtiel]

3 minutes ago, BIG STU said:

IMHO CG is over rated

I agree to a point. The more consistent your strike locations are, both in terms of your good shots and your misses, the more CG location matters. Z-axis CG is what impacts MOI so that definitely does matter, but I don't think that is what you're referring to anyway. If you miss all over the face then yeah, moving sliding weights heel/toe won't mean much and you're best off cramming everything as far back as you can. The overall weight of the head is far more important for most folks, but it is important because the right weight can lead to more consistent delivery, and that can lead to better/tighter strikes, which then turns back around and makes CG location more valuable again, hah. 

[BIG STU]

1 minute ago, Valtiel said:

I agree to a point. The more consistent your strike locations are, both in terms of your good shots and your misses, the more CG location matters. Z-axis CG is what impacts MOI so that definitely does matter, but I don't think that is what you're referring to anyway. If you miss all over the face then yeah, moving sliding weights heel/toe won't mean much and you're best off cramming everything as far back as you can. The overall weight of the head is far more important for most folks, but it is important because the right weight can lead to more consistent delivery, and that can lead to better/tighter strikes, which then turns back around and makes CG location more valuable again, hah. 

Yep you figured out what I was trying to say. Sometimes in written form especially on technical issues I have trouble delivering my thoughts where someone can understand them. But you caught on thanks. I would do a lot better in person with a club head in hand explaining my thoughts. Yep you nailed it on constant delivery

[mogc60]

19 minutes ago, BIG STU said:

Yep you figured out what I was trying to say. Sometimes in written form especially on technical issues I have trouble delivering my thoughts where someone can understand them. But you caught on thanks. I would do a lot better in person with a club head in hand explaining my thoughts. Yep you nailed it on constant delivery

BigStu I am very much like you. I’m also very sensitive to weight. I’ve always felt however that how people react to weight is very overlooked. Everyone has a sweet zone and when we find it with any club our delivery into the golf ball becomes highly consistent 

[phizzy30]

Just now, mogc60 said:

BigStu I am very much like you. I’m also very sensitive to weight. I’ve always felt however that how people react to weight is very overlooked. Everyone has a sweet zone and when we find it with any club our delivery into the golf ball becomes highly consistent 

I'm in the same boat.  Ever since adding lead tape to the sole, I hardly miss high or low on the face.  Everything is center to just slightly above center depending on how high/low I tee it up.  I still miss heel and toe side though.  At least I don't have to worry about the low spinny one or the high knuckle ball that falls outta the sky too fast. 

[Stuart_G]

59 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

I agree to a point.

 

Yes.   I might simplify it a bit though.

 

Head specs influence the ball flight results in two ways:

1) Those that influence what happens at impact - transfer of energy and momentum to the ball and gear effect.

2) Those which influence the players swing and therefore the delivery of the head into impact.

 

So I'd  put it like this:

a) c.g. is way more important for #1 than it is for #2.

b) for those people sensitive to certain delivery factors (#2) - those specs will always be more important to those players than the ones that are more influential at impact.

 

Total weight is the more universal factor that effects delivery for a high percentage of players but there are certainly other potential factors certain people can be sensitive to.  e.g. MOI for those with faster face closer rates or very late releases.

 

Edited June 20, 2022 by Stuart_G