Would you sign a contract with the PGATOUR if it was required in 2023?

[Titleist99]

Just for fun I'm trying to come up with a contract that the tour players could live with if Jay M. came up with one....I personally believe that one day this will be inevitable.......

 

My plan is full of flaws so any help would be appreciaed.....I know this site is not known for fun topics but try to bare with me....

 

Here's the Plan:

Would you sign a contract with the PGATOUR? (4 year deal)
Signing Bonus....
Top 10.....$10M
Top 11-20....$5M
Top 21-30....$3M
Top 31-40....$2M
Top 41-50....$1M
Top 51-100...$500K
Top 101-125..$250K
One time deal for a four year contract .renewal after 4 years based on your rankings at the time.
Purses are separate.

Forfeit any money if you fall out of the top 125 and you don't keep your card.
Pgatour will be the sole negotiators for the players.
$50M PIP eliminated. That's $200M up front money right there.
More money into the retirement plan.
Higher purses.
$25M FedEx cup final.
Higher stipend for the caddies.
paid lodging. Players and caddies
paid child care.
Stipend for Korn Ferry players.
Charity contributions.
Players negotiate their own advertising deals(up to 10)....with the approval of the PGATOur (no LIV deals)

The tour would have to get rid of some of the brass to pull this off but.....

**Remember all things are negotiable...

 

 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Titleist99

[Golfer4Life]

I thought they already did. Don't they?

 

Honest question. 

[deathbymuffin]

Sure!  Are they taking 5 handicaps now?

[Titleist99]

5 minutes ago, Golfer4Life said:

I thought they already did. Don't they?

 

Honest question. 

Dishonest question......

[Titleist99]

5 minutes ago, deathbymuffin said:

Sure!  Are they taking 5 handicaps now?

You'd have to go to the LIV Golf Series for that they gave Kevin Na $20M....that's close...LOL!

[Golfer4Life]

17 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Dishonest question......

Don't worry, I'll find my answer from a real source.

[NJBigFish22]

I will take a stab at some of this. You mention $200 million in signing bonuses for 125 guys, if your in the top 10 and for a four year commitment, I think you would need to be closer to $50 million each.

 

Forfeit if you fall out of top 125, no they would want guaranteed.

 

Why would the players want the PGAT to be their sole negotiator?  I’m not following you on this.  Cause why would a player want to let an organization be responsible for what they could get on their own.  

 

The tour gets to approve what deals a deals a player can sign, sort goes to my point above.

 

I could live with the $25 mill to FedEx winner, but paid 90% up front.

 

Basically if the tour wanted to go this route they would lose tax status and players would unionize and that would cost even more.

 

[redfirebird08]

Top 10 would be demanding at least $50M each. Patrick Reed just got $80M for crying out loud. 

[theodoreb]

Not nearly enough money to compete what is being given out at the other tour. PGA would have to pay at least $25M a year for the top 10 as that is what other top 10 professional athletes are getting in the US. Then add the fact that someone else is paying double!

[Titleist99]

15 minutes ago, NJBigFish22 said:

I will take a stab at some of this. You mention $200 million in signing bonuses for 125 guys, if your in the top 10 and for a four year commitment, I think you would need to be closer to $50 million each.

 

Forfeit if you fall out of top 125, no they would want guaranteed.

 

Why would the players want the PGAT to be their sole negotiator?  I’m not following you on this.  Cause why would a player want to let an organization be responsible for what they could get on their own.  

 

The tour gets to approve what deals a deals a player can sign, sort goes to my point above.

 

I could live with the $25 mill to FedEx winner, but paid 90% up front.

 

Basically if the tour wanted to go this route they would lose tax status and players would unionize and that would cost even more.

 

In my mind this is the only way out for the PGATOUR.......I could be wrong but we'll see

.1. Nah, If you're in the top 10 you're  already keeping your endorsements deals.... that's worth $20-40M.
2. If you lose your card after say two years your contract is void and your welcome to go to the LIV series.(negotiable)
3. The price for the contract is that the tour would negotiate with LIV Series for your services.(LIV would not be able to poach players)
4. You would not get to advertise for the LIV Series while under contract with the PGATOUR.
5. The FedEX cup is paid out in annuities  unless things change with FedEx. Bonus money is up front.
6. Please elaborate on the tour losing it's tax status.

 

 

[Titleist99]

19 minutes ago, redfirebird08 said:

Top 10 would be demanding at least $50M each. Patrick Reed just got $80M for crying out loud. 

Well that's Patrick Reed .....I guess his name recognition mean a lot to the Saudis....

[Titleist99]

13 minutes ago, theodoreb said:

Not nearly enough money to compete what is being given out at the other tour. PGA would have to pay at least $25M a year for the top 10 as that is what other top 10 professional athletes are getting in the US. Then add the fact that someone else is paying double!

There will be casualties but in the end LIV Series will have to cultivate their own players........and where are they going to do that, the Asian tour? ,  

[Titleist99]

44 minutes ago, Golfer4Life said:

Don't worry, I'll find my answer from a real source.

Right, exactly.....

[Titleist99]

PGATOUR would pay for this by dumping salaries..... up sponsor fees and dip into the emergency account that they breeched during Covid........plus the money acquired from LIV Golf series for the purchase of players contracts, unless they explore other options like the Asian tour.

[NJBigFish22]

16 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:In my mind this is the only way out for the PGATOUR.......I could be wrong but we'll see.1. Nah, If you're in the top 10 you're  already keeping your endorsements deals.... that's worth $20-40M.
2. If you lose your card after say two years your contract is void and your welcome to go to the LIV series.(negotiable)
3. The price for the contract is that the tour would negotiate with LIV Series for your services.(LIV would not be able to poach players)
4. You would not get to advertise for the LIV Series while under contract with the PGATOUR.
5. The FedEX cup is paid out in annuities  unless things change with FedEx. Bonus money is up front.
6. Please elaborate on the tour losing it's tax status.

 

 

The only way the PGAT survives if LIV keeps getting better players to sign and actually gets a broadcast partner, would be for them to let players play both.  The only option is allow players to play where they want, cause if the players who actually have all the leverage, since LIV is a real thing, and decide to unionize, the tour is dead.  

 

The tour gets special tax advantages due to how they are structured, which is part of the reason why the bring up how much a tournament gives to charity.  How sponsors get a write off when they provide prize money.  If they sign players to a contract they lose those benefits, which would basically kill the tour.

 

 

 

 

[Titleist99]

10 minutes ago, NJBigFish22 said:

The only way the PGAT survives if LIV keeps getting better players to sign and actually gets a broadcast partner, would be for them to let players play both.  The only option is allow players to play where they want, cause if the players who actually have all the leverage, since LIV is a real thing, and decide to unionize, the tour is dead.  

 

The tour gets special tax advantages due to how they are structured, which is part of the reason why the bring up how much a tournament gives to charity.  How sponsors get a write off when they provide prize money.  If they sign players to a contract they lose those benefits, which would basically kill the tour.

 

 

 

 

Each year the tour and it's sponsors have donated $200M to charity and a grand total of $3B total .....

I don't think that they'll lose their status from congress any time soon.

 

The Tour players as employees wouldn't affect their 501(c) status.......but I'm not a tax lawyer.

[m d g]

39 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

The Tour players as employees wouldn't affect their 501(c) status.......but I'm not a tax lawyer.

If you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express recently that's close enough...

[bladehunter]

Yes. If they call I’ll sign today or in 2023.  Jay. Talk to Mcgirt if you need to get ahold of me….  

[2bGood]

1 hour ago, NJBigFish22 said:

 

 

The tour gets special tax advantages due to how they are structured, which is part of the reason why the bring up how much a tournament gives to charity.  How sponsors get a write off when they provide prize money.  If they sign players to a contract they lose those benefits, which would basically kill the tour.

 

 

 

 

The PGAT is not a 501(c)(3) but rather a 501(c)(6). The former is a charity (typically accept donations and issue charitable receipts), the latter is non-profit member organisation:

 

A 501c6 organization is an association of persons having common business interests. The organizations’ purpose must be to promote their common interest and improve business conditions, not to engage in a regular business for a profit.

501c6 organisations include the following –

-Business leagues,

-Chambers of commerce,

-Real estate boards,

-Boards of trade, and

-Professional sports leagues.

 

The PGAT giving donations away has nothing to do with keeping it's 501c6 status, but you are correct they get tax advantages because how they are structured. The structure does allow for the organisation to have employees, but I agree they lose that structure if they no longer have members and only have employees. 

 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by 2bGood

[NJBigFish22]

23 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

The PGAT is not a 501(c)(3) but rather a 501(c)(6). The former is a charity (typically accept donations and issue charitable receipts), the latter is non-profit member organisation:

 

A 501c6 organization is an association of persons having common business interests. The organizations’ purpose must be to promote their common interest and improve business conditions, not to engage in a regular business for a profit.

501c6 organisations include the following –

-Business leagues,

-Chambers of commerce,

-Real estate boards,

-Boards of trade, and

-Professional sports leagues.

 

The PGAT giving donations away has nothing to do with keeping it's 501c6 status, but you are correct they get tax advatages because how they are structured.

If they enter into contracts with the players I thought I heard that they would lose their 501c6 designation, because since currently players need to pay a fee to be a member of the tour, so any payments to the players is actually an expense, which is similar to the organizations you mentioned handle things like salaries.  Which helps keep their non profit status.  Which seriously should be looked at, in 2018 the tour actually made charitable donations totaling just 3% of their $1.75 B revenues.  One of these players is going to file an anti trust lawsuit and I’m guessing the tour will settle PDQ.

Edited June 13, 2022 by NJBigFish22

[Titleist99]

5 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

Just for fun I'm trying to come up with a contract that the tour players could live with if Jay M. came up with one....I personally believe that one day this will be inevitable.......

 

My plan is full of flaws so any help would be appreciaed.....I know this site is not known for fun topics but try to bare with me....

 

Here's the Plan:

Would you sign a contract with the PGATOUR? (4 year deal)
Signing Bonus....
Top 10.....$10M
Top 11-20....$5M
Top 21-30....$3M
Top 31-40....$2M
Top 41-50....$1M
Top 51-100...$500K
Top 101-125..$250K
One time deal for a four year contract .renewal after 4 years based on your rankings at the time.
Purses are separate.

Forfeit any money if you fall out of the top 125 and you don't keep your card.
Pgatour will be the sole negotiators for the players.
$50M PIP eliminated. That's $200M up front money right there.
More money into the retirement plan.
Higher purses.
$25M FedEx cup final.
Higher stipend for the caddies.
paid lodging. Players and caddies
paid child care.
Stipend for Korn Ferry players.
Charity contributions.
Players negotiate their own advertising deals(up to 10)....with the approval of the PGATOur (no LIV deals)

The tour would have to get rid of some of the brass to pull this off but.....

**Remember all things are negotiable...

 

 

 

We're adding the Players as a Major to the list........Stole this from another thread. LOL!

[2bGood]

2 hours ago, NJBigFish22 said:

If they enter into contracts with the players I thought I heard that they would lose their 501c6 designation, because since currently players need to pay a fee to be a member of the tour, so any payments to the players is actually an expense, which is similar to the organizations you mentioned handle things like salaries.  Which helps keep their non profit status.  Which seriously should be looked at, in 2018 the tour actually made charitable donations totaling just 3% of their $1.75 B revenues.  One of these players is going to file an anti trust lawsuit and I’m guessing the tour will settle PDQ.

Again charitable donations they have made has nothing to do with their status. So wether they gave 3%, 30% or 0% means nothing. Non-profits don't need to be charities so don't get hung up on the donating money part . The PGAT is organised under the same status as something like your local chamber of commerce or this case a 'business league'. There is really nothing unusual about large business leagues working to assure their members can enrich themselves (it is kind of the point, as the IRS defines them as "organizations or clubs that promote the business interests of their members"

 

The issue with contracting the players does not having anything to do with the contracts themselves. 501c6 orgs are allowed to have employees (and contractors), but to keep the status they need "To be exempt, a section 501(c)(6) organization must receive meaningful membership support"

 

If all the members became employees they would likely no longer be able to meet that criteria. 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by 2bGood

[IH82BOGEY]

So, the PGA Tour would become their employer?  As employees, players would work for the tour and be employed at the Tour's discretion...of course...based on the needs of the tour.  Players would get a W-2 for services rendered the previous calendar year.  No?

[2bGood]

10 minutes ago, IH82BOGEY said:

So, the PGA Tour would become their employer?  As employees, players would work for the tour and be employed at the Tour's discretion...of course...based on the needs of the tour.  Players would get a W-2 for services rendered the previous calendar year.  No?

Tax matters at this level are pretty involved and the details matter greatly so the answer is - MAYBE? On the face of it, yes they might get a W-2. But they could still potentially be set up as independent contractors (with guaranteed contracts) and get a 1099. In order to stay with the 1099 they would have to continue to pay all their own expenses. 

 

Athletes in other sports do get W-2's but typically their expenses are covered by the team. 

 

Of course with golfers they are going to have many arrangement depending on the tax advantages. Sponsorship are likely paid to their corporate entity, they might actually already be getting W2's for work as brand ambassadors and then 1099 for their winnings.

 

Then wrap in multiple states, foreign income etc etc etc. It safe to say DJ does not do his own taxes with an online program.😉

 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by 2bGood

[IH82BOGEY]

8 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Tax matters at this level are pretty involved and the details matter greatly so the answer is - MAYBE? On the face of it, yes they might get a W-2. But they could still potentially be set up as independent contractors (with guaranteed contracts) and get a 1099. In order to stay with the 1099 they would have to continue to pay all their own expenses. 

 

Athletes in other sports do get W-2's but typically they expenses are covered by the team. 

 

8 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

 

 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by IH82BOGEY

[IH82BOGEY]

My point.  Most other pro athletes are employees of the team owners.  Pro golfers are independent contractors.  The essential difference between an employee and independent contractor is control.  If the Tour can exert control of the golfers, they are, in substance, employees.

[2bGood]

2 minutes ago, IH82BOGEY said:

My point.  Most other pro athletes are employees of the team owners.  Pro golfers are independent contractors.  The essential difference between an employee and independent contractor is control.  If the Tour can exert control of the golfers, they are, in substance, employees.

Do you mean in a legal sense, in the eyes of the IRS or in a practical sense?

 

From a legal and tax sense, control is not the only essential difference. Contacts can stipulate significant control in them, including who else you can work for, when you have to work and how much notice is require before ending the contract. Ironically because of the independence of an 'independent contractor', contracts can often stipulate more control then labour laws would allow for an employee.

 

Every jurisdiction is different, so this is a pretty general conversation. Lots factors go into wether someone is an employee or a contractor and typically we are looking for the most efficient (as in least cost to both parties) way to get someone paid and get the work done. 

 

Would the PGAT go down the road of other sports leagues and make the players employees? Who knows. 

 

A year from now the Saudis might get bored with their hobby and LIV folds and everything goes back to the way it was. 

 

[Titleist99]

19 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Do you mean in a legal sense, in the eyes of the IRS or in a practical sense?

 

From a legal and tax sense, control is not the only essential difference. Contacts can stipulate significant control in them, including who else you can work for, when you have to work and how much notice is require before ending the contract. Ironically because of the independence of an 'independent contractor', contracts can often stipulate more control then labour laws would allow for an employee.

 

Every jurisdiction is different, so this is a pretty general conversation. Lots factors go into wether someone is an employee or a contractor and typically we are looking for the most efficient (as in least cost to both parties) way to get someone paid and get the work done. 

 

Would the PGAT go down the road of other sports leagues and make the players employees? Who knows. 

 

A year from now the Saudis might get bored with their hobby and LIV folds and everything goes back to the way it was. 

 

IMO .....Too late to go back. I think the Pgtour will be forced to do something like this. They must find a way to stop the migration of players.......Players will follow the bigger stars.

[2bGood]

3 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

IMO .....Too late to go back. I think the Pgtour will be forced to do something like this. They must find a way to stop the migration of players.......Players will follow the bigger stars.

I agree, it looks like the PGAT is in trouble. I hope we are wrong. 

[NJBigFish22]

19 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

I agree, it looks like the PGAT is in trouble. I hope we are wrong. 

Time will tell if anybody files an antitrust lawsuit, that could be the tours undoing, which is why they may just end up saying play where you want, purely for survival.

 

Now if the players somehow become employees like in other sports, unionizing will possibly cripple the tour as well.