*Graphite Design Lovers Anonymous* Tour AD UB vs IZ vs XC and NOW vs TP! ...and HD....and VR

[phizzy30]

5 hours ago, Kwheat said:

Hey all,

 

Just played my friends GD shaft this week... Ad tp 6x untipped.  Very nice, love the feel... My gamer is a Ventus Red 6x tipped 1.75.  TP launched and spun a little high, Ventus feels more distinct unloading near bottom 1/3 of shaft.   I've seen the EI graphs of ventus red, kk XT (played previously) and ad xc... Very similar with xt having that mid bump stiffness while XC/red are somewhat similar in that area- XC just has a stiffer handle it seems.  

 

Thoughts on XC vs TP in 6x?  I'm around 115 so should I entertain TX?  The TP felt stable at 6x but definitely more active.

XC is the classic white board profile where it gets really soft in the handle but maintains stiffness in the mid and tip.  I personally prefer it over the TP because it doesn't kick towards the mid section like the TP does.  Rather, I feel it more towards the handle which I find easier to square the face and make better contact overall.  If you look at the EI profile of the TP it's more linear from tip to handle.  You have to ask yourself whether you do better with a softer handle shaft vs. a firmer handle in this case because both are pretty stiff in the tip and mid.  As for your ss, you generate plenty and could easily fit into TX flex just based on numbers alone.  However, we have to look at your transition into the ball.  You could either go with a heavily tipped X(1-1.5 inches) or a slightly tipped TX(0.5 to 1 inch). 

Edited November 21, 2023 by phizzy30

[Kwheat]

Thanks @phizzy30for the advice!  @Valtielwas kind enough to send me EI profiles of Ventus Blue TR, XC and Ventus Red (hopefully it's ok if I repost it here).  From what I've read, seems like you've tried every shaft out there lol.  I was not a fan of the Blue TR 6X-  too stiff with no great feel for me, came out a little low and flat, it just wanted to stay straight.  I tested it in Stealth+, Stealth 2+ in varying lofts.  The red launches in a better window, is workable but still stable with a nice kick.   But....

That TP felt even better, like addicting better.  Stayed dead straight, part of which was my friend's Stealth HD head opened 2 clicks (launch/spin way too high but I got the gist of it) but also the weight, not a huge fan... Reminded me exactly of the TR, felt heavy in the 45"ish playing lengths I tested.  On course carry 275-285, it's soggy here so I could see the fairway moonball ballmarks lol.

I have a fairly smooth transition, I just focus on getting to my left side and rolling my hips to get a little extra torque before I sling the arms down (I believe you did a post of this a while ago, with McIlroy as the freeze frame subject, great post btw and something I coincidentally modeled my transition move over the last 3 years ever since AMG came out with the video of how the hips "fingerprint" roll.  A real game changer for me, added an extra easy 20 yards without any real effort) Hitting a cut feels like my right shoulder covers the ball. Draw, I stay back and let the arms sling first.  The TP and TR were very tough for me to do those manipulations, they really just felt like the club was swinging itself, lol kinda like swinging a ping driver.

 

 

Given that the XC seems to have a softer mid relative to the red, did you also find it workable or was it very straight? I'm definitely no expert in reading these profiles.  Then add in the TX versus x question lol.  Maybe I'm chasing a unicorn... I thought the red was good in feel until that TP.

 

Fwiw I also play px lz 6.5 irons - I like the smooth release they give, but that said if I did a rebuild, I'd hard step to tightened them up just a hair.  But any 130g shaft like dg that I've tried just feel like a brick

Edited November 21, 2023 by Kwheat

[phizzy30]

1 hour ago, Kwheat said:

Thanks @phizzy30for the advice!  @Valtielwas kind enough to send me EI profiles of Ventus Blue TR, XC and Ventus Red (hopefully it's ok if I repost it here).  From what I've read, seems like you've tried every shaft out there lol.  I was not a fan of the Blue TR 6X-  too stiff with no great feel for me, came out a little low and flat, it just wanted to stay straight.  I tested it in Stealth+, Stealth 2+ in varying lofts.  The red launches in a better window, is workable but still stable with a nice kick.   But....

That TP felt even better, like addicting better.  Stayed dead straight, part of which was my friend's Stealth HD head opened 2 clicks (launch/spin way too high but I got the gist of it) but also the weight, not a huge fan... Reminded me exactly of the TR, felt heavy in the 45"ish playing lengths I tested.  On course carry 275-285, it's soggy here so I could see the fairway moonball ballmarks lol.

I have a fairly smooth transition, I just focus on getting to my left side and rolling my hips to get a little extra torque before I sling the arms down (I believe you did a post of this a while ago, with McIlroy as the freeze frame subject, great post btw and something I coincidentally modeled my transition move over the last 3 years ever since AMG came out with the video of how the hips "fingerprint" roll.  A real game changer for me, added an extra easy 20 yards without any real effort) Hitting a cut feels like my right shoulder covers the ball. Draw, I stay back and let the arms sling first.  The TP and TR were very tough for me to do those manipulations, they really just felt like the club was swinging itself, lol kinda like swinging a ping driver.

 

 

Given that the XC seems to have a softer mid relative to the red, did you also find it workable or was it very straight? I'm definitely no expert in reading these profiles.  Then add in the TX versus x question lol.  Maybe I'm chasing a unicorn... I thought the red was good in feel until that TP.

 

Fwiw I also play px lz 6.5 irons - I like the smooth release they give, but that said if I did a rebuild, I'd hard step to tightened them up just a hair.  But any 130g shaft like dg that I've tried just feel like a brick

The modern GD shafts feel smoother than the Ventus line to me which might explain why you love the way the TP feels.  GD uses M40X, T1100 and is 50t which is probably why they feel so smooth whereas the Ventus TR line uses the spread fabric under the handle has the velocore for stability and is 40t if I remember correctly with reinforced sections that are more carbon rich.  XC was workable for me whereas the TR Red was draw biased.  As far as TX vs. X goes, I myself always go with TX because it's usually a bit more stable, doesn't spin as much and a little lower torque.  However, unlike you, I have a very aggressive transition. 

Edited November 21, 2023 by phizzy30

[Kwheat]

Gotcha, thanks for the info.  I'll be on the lookout for one it would seem

[goje22]

37 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

The modern GD shafts feel smoother than the Ventus line to me which might explain why you love the way the TP feels.  GD uses M40X and T1100 and is 50t which is probably why they feel so smooth whereas the Ventus TR line uses the spread fabric under the handle has the velocore for stability and is 40t if I remember correctly with reinforced sections that are more carbon rich.  XC was workable for me whereas the TR Red was draw biased.  As far as TX vs. X goes, I myself always go with TX because it's usually a bit more stable, doesn't spin as much and a little lower torque.  However, unlike you, I have a very aggressive transition. 

I second that Tour AD TX shafts are as smooth as anyone else’s X (especially Ventus, to me). My GP 8TX is my favorite feeling 3w shaft ever and on paper it looks like rebar. 

[Kwheat]

@goje22 thanks for the advice.  I've tried TX a few years ago in a Adilia copper and that was awful, could barely get it off the ground.   Hit a KK DC TX and that was rebar to me too but it was at least hittable.  Going ventus black 6x after that was better, then slowly trying more "smooth" shafts has really helped.  I have speed but it's like my hockey sticks, I use intermediate flex shafts because I like the whip.

 

Are you hitting a GD in driver too?  Or have you hit any in X to compare?

[goje22]

21 minutes ago, Kwheat said:

@goje22 thanks for the advice.  I've tried TX a few years ago in a Adilia copper and that was awful, could barely get it off the ground.   Hit a KK DC TX and that was rebar to me too but it was at least hittable.  Going ventus black 6x after that was better, then slowly trying more "smooth" shafts has really helped.  I have speed but it's like my hockey sticks, I use intermediate flex shafts because I like the whip.

 

Are you hitting a GD in driver too?  Or have you hit any in X to compare?

I play Diamana BF 60Tx in driver which isn’t too far off of the archetype you find in a majority of Tour AD products. In 3 wood I play GP 8TX (back & forth with UB 8TX) and UB 9X in 5 wood. 
 

I do not like Ventus Black products and even if I did wouldn’t touch that part in TX. Most touring pros seemingly feel the same, VB X is way more common than TX. I have dabbled in Diamana DF 60x (similar but not identical to VB) and it felt significantly stiffer than the BF 60TX.
 

I have a fast transition and pretty fast swing speed fwiw. 

Edited November 21, 2023 by goje22

[phizzy30]

18 minutes ago, Kwheat said:

@goje22 thanks for the advice.  I've tried TX a few years ago in a Adilia copper and that was awful, could barely get it off the ground.   Hit a KK DC TX and that was rebar to me too but it was at least hittable.  Going ventus black 6x after that was better, then slowly trying more "smooth" shafts has really helped.  I have speed but it's like my hockey sticks, I use intermediate flex shafts because I like the whip.

 

Are you hitting a GD in driver too?  Or have you hit any in X to compare?

Modern GD shafts in TX flex are smooth even the stout and linear ones.  GP and XC were the least smooth however, they still had more feel than any of the low/low shafts that Aldila produces.  I have a VF and it reminds of the XC but has more feel with a firmer handle and slightly more stable.  Launch and spin are almost identical. 

Edited November 21, 2023 by phizzy30

[Kwheat]

Thanks @phizzy30.  When you say more stable, are you referring to the kick these shafts are famous for, or more like twisting especially on poor strikes?  

 

[phizzy30]

Just now, Kwheat said:

Thanks @phizzy30.  When you say more stable, are you referring to the kick these shafts are famous for, or more like twisting especially on poor strikes?  

 

Twisting on poor strikes. 

[EDWARDSR]

@phizzy30 @third-times-a-charm If VR 8TX spun too much for 3 wood, what is the most logical pivot to try another GD shaft in 3 Wood? 

[phizzy30]

Just now, EDWARDSR said:

@phizzy30 @third-times-a-charm If VR 8TX spun too much for 3 wood, what is the most logical pivot to try another GD shaft in 3 Wood? 

XC or GP.

[third-times-a-charm]

1 hour ago, EDWARDSR said:

@phizzy30 @third-times-a-charm If VR 8TX spun too much for 3 wood, what is the most logical pivot to try another GD shaft in 3 Wood? 

 

57 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

XC or GP.

If you really want to go directly to cutting spin - not really going into why exactly - I would on the fly say XC or GP as well.

 

In addition I would say the new VF will cut spin - but so will the HD and UB but will have different feels. The UB with a pronounced mid kick and the HD with a more linear feel. The UB and HD wont cut spin 'on paper' as much as the GP, VF, or XC though.

 

I would also potentially recommend an additional .5" tipping but thats up to your preference.

 

The GP is a fantastic shaft that's kind of seeing a resurgence right now. Very smooth shaft but cuts spin 'for a GD shaft' without being overly 'black profile'.

Edited November 22, 2023 by third-times-a-charm

[third-times-a-charm]

6 hours ago, goje22 said:

I second that Tour AD TX shafts are as smooth as anyone else’s X (especially Ventus, to me). My GP 8TX is my favorite feeling 3w shaft ever and on paper it looks like rebar. 

Love my GPs as well. Lexi still uses hers in 3w. Kevin Na as well IIRC in driver.

 

My GP 7 in 5 wood is just such a reliable feeling shaft. Not as stiff as everyone makes it out to be.

 

I hit the Par 5 #4 in two today with my GP in 5w combo. (Tees were a little up, though 😂)

Edited November 22, 2023 by third-times-a-charm

[EDWARDSR]

4 minutes ago, third-times-a-charm said:

 

If you really want to go directly to cutting spin - not really going into why exactly - I would on the fly say XC or GP as well.

 

In addition I would say the new VF will cut spin - but so will the HD and UB but will have different feels. The UB with a pronounced mid kick and the HD with a more linear feel. The UB and HD wont cut spin 'on paper' as much as the GP, VF, or XC though.

 

I would also potentially recommend an additional .5" tipping but thats up to your preference.

 Launch was great, found the center of the face often (which is great) but spin was hovering at 4500-4700 consistently. I'd really love to find something that spins at that 3500 number in a Graphite Design offering.

 

I'm a certified club hoe, but haven't ever really delved into the GD realm lol 

[third-times-a-charm]

2 minutes ago, EDWARDSR said:

 Launch was great, found the center of the face often (which is great) but spin was hovering at 4500-4700 consistently. I'd really love to find something that spins at that 3500 number in a Graphite Design offering.

 

I'm a certified club hoe, but haven't ever really delved into the GD realm lol 

I mean - the VR is kinda at the top of the list for high spin besides the CQ. So you're going to cut spin no matter where you go down the GD line, the question is how you react to the feels of each shaft.

 

Tbh no shaft you choose even if its a Ventus TR Black will cut spin 1000RPM. Thats a swing or problem with the head you're using.

 

What head is it?

[EDWARDSR]

2 minutes ago, third-times-a-charm said:

I mean - the VR is kinda at the top of the list for high spin besides the CQ. So you're going to cut spin no matter where you go down the GD line, the question is how you react to the feels of each shaft.

 

Tbh no shaft you choose even if its a Ventus TR Black will cut spin 1000RPM. Thats a swing or problem with the head you're using.

 

What head is it?

Stealth2 (non plus), sounds like I'm going to have to go to a lower spin head. I tried to have my cake and eat it too! 

[third-times-a-charm]

Just now, EDWARDSR said:

Stealth2 (non plus), sounds like I'm going to have to go to a lower spin head. I tried to have my cake and eat it too! 

I would definitely recommend that - paired with the best feeling shaft that gets you in a good window!

[absoludicrous]

I’ve only played a few rounds, but hit the range quite a bit to get an idea how I like the new DI hybrid 8S and the HD 7S in my 3HL. I struggled yesterday with my driver and 3HL all round, but I was hitting both really well on the range for the last couple of days. I was able to see during the day that my 3HL was getting a good ball flight and longer carry distance. While I was struggling off the tee all day, I did catch one tee shot with my 3HL that went 15 yards longer than normal and I finally started to hit everything well on the range post round. Damn you golf…

 

The DI has been very solid, even when my longer clubs were struggling. I was pretty happy with my Atmos hybrid shaft, but I wish I picked this up sooner. I am ready to replace my other hybrid shaft for Black Friday with People’s Clubs having a sale. I used to avoid my hybrid until I really needed it. Now I’m grabbing it whenever I have the chance.

 

Two things I learned from this experiment. 

 

1) I could not hit the HD well with driver during my fitting. I was struggling bad, but I was getting really good consistent contact with the IZ (smash factors of 1.5, 1.5, 1.49, 1.5, etc.). No matter the head (G430, Aerojet, Paradym), the IZ was a good fit for a driver.

 

Based on my reading and the posts/suggestions in this thread, I gave the HD a try with my fairway wood and it’s been pretty solid. Just because one shaft doesn’t work for you in one club, doesn’t mean it’ll behave the same way in another. The only way you’ll know is to give it a try for your swing, not from what other’s experiences are.

 

2) I avoided the DI shafts knowing I had issues with shafts with a kick in the past. After reading this thread and seeing that the DI hybrids were not exactly the same as the woods, I decided to give it a try anyway and I’m loving it. Even though a shaft may carry the same name, it doesn’t mean it’ll perform the same in different clubs. 

 

I think I’m done experimenting for now. There is a lot of good info in this thread for new people looking to try GD shafts out.

 

 

[eric61]

Quick heads up -- not sure if others have noted this already: 

 

Callaway is currently offering BB and TP shafts for no upcharge. They'd been discounted at a $125 upcharge for quite a while, but you can now go on their website and put together custom builds with no upcharges for those two shafts.

[hagimihale]

On 11/21/2023 at 9:34 PM, third-times-a-charm said:

The GP is a fantastic shaft that's kind of seeing a resurgence right now. Very smooth shaft but cuts spin 'for a GD shaft' without being overly 'black profile'.

 

I have a GP in 6X in my garage.  Gets lost in there - I own way too many driver shafts.  But every time I take it out for a spin, I wonder why I'm not gaming it on a regular basis.

[third-times-a-charm]

1 hour ago, hagimihale said:

 

I have a GP in 6X in my garage.  Gets lost in there - I own way too many driver shafts.  But every time I take it out for a spin, I wonder why I'm not gaming it on a regular basis.

Tbh the fact it was turquoise probably turned a lot of guys off. They had to come out with the 'black edition'. Even the historic DI didnt get play from some people because its such a stark orange color and has a black version. IMO for the GP it was too little too late for a shaft that was still overshadowed by the DI at the time of its release.

 

Good to see the VF make such a splash right now being similar.

[eric61]

I'm sort of searching for a feel in a low-mid launching driver shaft, and wondering if Graphite Design has something that would fit this bill. There's a lot of talk about the GP -- maybe it's the best bet at meeting this description? 

 

Here's what I'm looking for: I'd like to find a shaft with a low-mid launch and spin profile, but where there's a little bit of feel lower in the mid-section than my current Ventus TR Blue. 

 

The TR Blue feels like there's a lot of movement and kick in the upper-mid section. Contrast that with the Speeder NX Blue that I have in my 3W, where it feels softer overall, but like there's a really strong kick in the lower-mid section. Another shaft that comes to mind with what feels to me like a lower-mid kick would be the HD, though it's higher launching than I'm really looking for. I love blueboards in my fairway woods, but just want something that feels like it has a tighter handle and upper-mid section in driver.

 

I tried a Diamana ZF, but found it to be an even more extreme version of what I have in the TR Blue -- the softness is a little too high in the mid-section for me.

 

Any thoughts? Maybe the GP? Something else? I do love the HD, but found it too high-launching in the past. I'm playing an 8 degree driver head now, so it might be worth another shot.

[phizzy30]

Just now, eric61 said:

I'm sort of searching for a feel in a low-mid launching driver shaft, and wondering if Graphite Design has something that would fit this bill. There's a lot of talk about the GP -- maybe it's the best bet at meeting this description? 

 

Here's what I'm looking for: I'd like to find a shaft with a low-mid launch and spin profile, but where there's a little bit of feel lower in the mid-section than my current Ventus TR Blue. 

 

The TR Blue feels like there's a lot of movement and kick in the upper-mid section. Contrast that with the Speeder NX Blue that I have in my 3W, where it feels softer overall, but like there's a really strong kick in the lower-mid section. Another shaft that comes to mind with what feels to me like a lower-mid kick would be the HD, though it's higher launching than I'm really looking for. I love blueboards in my fairway woods, but just want something that feels like it has a tighter handle and upper-mid section in driver.

 

I tried a Diamana ZF, but found it to be an even more extreme version of what I have in the TR Blue -- the softness is a little too high in the mid-section for me.

 

Any thoughts? Maybe the GP? Something else? I do love the HD, but found it too high-launching in the past. I'm playing an 8 degree driver head now, so it might be worth another shot.

I see that you have the TR Blue in driver.  I'd recommend the VF.  It's similar in EI profile to the TR Blue but feels smoother.  Launch and spin are similar with the VF maybe launching a hair lower depending on your delivery of course.  It's very linear where as I could feel the TR Blue kick a good bit.  Where you might feel unloading with the VF is just under the handle but it's so subtle that may not even feel it. 

[eric61]

11 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

I see that you have the TR Blue in driver.  I'd recommend the VF.  It's similar in EI profile to the TR Blue but feels smoother.  Launch and spin are similar with the VF maybe launching a hair lower depending on your delivery of course.  It's very linear where as I could feel the TR Blue kick a good bit.  Where you might feel unloading with the VF is just under the handle but it's so subtle that may not even feel it. 

Yeah, the "just under the handle" unloading is what I'm worried most about. I still think it's worth a try -- I mean, it's a new Graphite Design shaft, so who am I kidding, I'll try it anyway -- and maybe just toning down that kick vs. finding something that kicks lower will be the solution.

[phizzy30]

Just now, eric61 said:

Yeah, the "just under the handle" unloading is what I'm worried most about. I still think it's worth a try -- I mean, it's a new Graphite Design shaft, so who am I kidding, I'll try it anyway -- and maybe just toning down that kick vs. finding something that kicks lower will be the solution.

Have you tested the Diamana GT?  It's more linear than the ZF and the handle and mid are very stiff with a softer tip.  I liked the ZF but love the GT.  Dispersion is so much tighter as the ball doesn't curve as much and it's really smooth as well.  The kick you feel is so subtle and more towards the mid-tip area where you like it. 

[eric61]

10 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

Have you tested the Diamana GT?  It's more linear than the ZF and the handle and mid are very stiff with a softer tip.  I liked the ZF but love the GT.  Dispersion is so much tighter as the ball doesn't curve as much and it's really smooth as well.  The kick you feel is so subtle and more towards the mid-tip area where you like it. 

This sounds extremely promising! I haven't. I hated the ZF -- the kick was just in exactly the wrong place for me. But if it's toned down quite a bit and toward the mid-tip in the GT, then that would be perfect. 

 

OK, so the Diamana GT and the GD VF are on the must-test list this winter. I'm hopeful about the VF. My fastest-ever ball speeds came with a 1K Pro White, but dispersion wasn't great (and it's obviously not the kind of profile I'm talking about here). The Graphite Design version of a whiteboard, and Mitsubishi's best idea of a blueboard feel with whiteboard launch/spin combo, seem like great places to start.

[Jabender]

I’m experimenting with the 3 highest launching shafts they offer at the moment. TSR3 11 Head. All shafts 5 Stiff and playing at 44.5 inches. Swing speed around 95 and I just turned 60.  The AD-Di flights the lowest but feels heavy in the tip and has the least amount of kick. The AD-VR is the longest, a little more feel than the DI and actually feels the lightest, maybe it’s counter balanced? The AD-CQ has a nice feel. Soft tip that I can feel releasing into the ball. Most kick between the 3 And launches higher than the VR. I play the CQ in my TSR3 4 Wood also at 6S and it’s money! I spent a year alternating the 3 and can’t decide on 1. Should I? Or should I just keep alternating them for no apparent reason? Course plays soft and need more carry the CQ.  plays long and hard and can use more roll the VR. Windy day, the DI. Dumb huh??

Edited December 1, 2023 by Jabender

[cw1209]

18 hours ago, eric61 said:

I'm sort of searching for a feel in a low-mid launching driver shaft, and wondering if Graphite Design has something that would fit this bill. There's a lot of talk about the GP -- maybe it's the best bet at meeting this description? 

 

Here's what I'm looking for: I'd like to find a shaft with a low-mid launch and spin profile, but where there's a little bit of feel lower in the mid-section than my current Ventus TR Blue. 

 

The TR Blue feels like there's a lot of movement and kick in the upper-mid section. Contrast that with the Speeder NX Blue that I have in my 3W, where it feels softer overall, but like there's a really strong kick in the lower-mid section. Another shaft that comes to mind with what feels to me like a lower-mid kick would be the HD, though it's higher launching than I'm really looking for. I love blueboards in my fairway woods, but just want something that feels like it has a tighter handle and upper-mid section in driver.

 

I tried a Diamana ZF, but found it to be an even more extreme version of what I have in the TR Blue -- the softness is a little too high in the mid-section for me.

 

Any thoughts? Maybe the GP? Something else? I do love the HD, but found it too high-launching in the past. I'm playing an 8 degree driver head now, so it might be worth another shot.

 

I know it's a GD thread, but have you tried Kaili White or Hzrdus Black Gen 4? They are both listed as low/low, but I think they are both low-mid/low-mid as long as you don't get the TX. 

[phizzy30]

On 11/30/2023 at 11:33 PM, Jabender said:

I’m experimenting with the 3 highest launching shafts they offer at the moment. TSR3 11 Head. All shafts 5 Stiff and playing at 44.5 inches. Swing speed around 95 and I just turned 60.  The AD-Di flights the lowest but feels heavy in the tip and has the least amount of kick. The AD-VR is the longest, a little more feel than the DI and actually feels the lightest, maybe it’s counter balanced? The AD-CQ has a nice feel. Soft tip that I can feel releasing into the ball. Most kick between the 3 And launches higher than the VR. I play the CQ in my TSR3 4 Wood also at 6S and it’s money! I spent a year alternating the 3 and can’t decide on 1. Should I? Or should I just keep alternating them for no apparent reason? Course plays soft and need more carry the CQ.  plays long and hard and can use more roll the VR. Windy day, the DI. Dumb huh??

Nothing wrong with having multiple driver shafts to experiment with.  GD shafts seem to hold their value although the DI is older, just in case you decide to sell the ones you don't want anymore in the future.